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Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth

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From "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth
Date Fri, 20 Mar 2015 02:09:55 -0400
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On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 03:00:02 -0400, Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org>
wrote:
> "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> writes:

>> As my other post indicates, it's going to be hard to live with only
>> 16 primitive (or low-level) words maximum.
>
> I disagree.  My toy Forth is based on 12 primitives.  It's quite slow,
> but will boot, metacompile, and run some tests in under a minute.

Well, I'm not familiar with the 9 words you've used, although I did
look at your lbForth when you posted a link some time ago.  You've
done some things far better than most who implement Forth's in other
languages, like C.  In fact, I found a few things to be scary, since
I'm the only other person who seems to have done the same things or
similar things.  I've studied quite a few other Forths coded in C and
no one had used the techniques I've used.  So, yes, I was impressed
with what I saw, but I think you can go much further than you did.

And, I did post links to Mikael Patel's 9 instruction Forth wordset.
He said they produce a very slow Forth.  I also posted a link which
lists the primitives to a bunch of Forths, including another 9 word
set used for bootstrapping MRForth.  So, yes, with three Forths using
9 words, nine is possible, but it's not optimal.  It's also rather
easy to improve or optimize, even if limited to 9 words.

I also posted 15 + 15 from Koopman's and Ertl's data set which should
make an somewhat acceptable Forth in terms of speed, even if only
the first set of 15 are used.

 From the Forth primitives comparison I did, you really need 23 to 63
to be usable.  From my personal Forth, you'll need around 60.

> And the OP stated that speed is of no concern.

I'm being dismissive of that claim.  Nothing is more grating than
slow code.  Even if someone disagrees with that on a rational,
argumentative basis, like I do when I think about this, they usually
find it to be true in reality, like I do in practice.

So, if JUERGEN can simply change from one set of 9 words to a
different set of 9 or 15 words and obtain a 30% or 70% or 120%
increase in speed, I'd think the OP would do so, or at least
test different combinations based on what has been posted.

Koopman and Ertl both already determined which Forth words are
executed the most frequently.  These are the words you want to
spend time on to make them quick.


Rod Pemberton

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What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-17 12:47 -0700
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-17 22:29 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 10:59 +0000
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:04 +0100
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 11:19 +0000
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 12:39 +0100
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-03-18 08:05 -1000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-18 18:34 +0000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:05 +0100
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <buzz@notnotnontnooatno.cmm> - 2015-03-17 19:11 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-19 00:28 -0400
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:00 -0400
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 11:33 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-18 22:15 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 07:53 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2015-03-19 17:17 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 01:01 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 18:42 -0400
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-18 23:56 +0000
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-19 02:46 +0100
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:27 +0000
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-18 22:21 -0400
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-19 09:43 +0000
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-20 15:41 +0000
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-29 16:23 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-29 16:43 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-29 22:53 +0100
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-19 08:00 +0100
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-20 02:09 -0400
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-20 14:43 +0100
      ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-23 15:26 +0100
        Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-23 10:39 -0700
        Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-24 01:18 -0700
          Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-24 17:45 -0700
            Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 00:08 -0700
              Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 00:43 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 07:07 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 08:06 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 15:19 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-25 12:39 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-03-25 20:42 +0100
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-25 16:41 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-25 22:32 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2015-03-26 09:35 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2015-03-26 14:52 +0200
                Re: ...Tiny targets rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 16:12 -0400
                Re: ...Tiny targets albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-03-26 13:00 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-03-26 11:58 +0000
                Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: ...Tiny targets JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-25 07:16 -0700
            Re: ...Tiny targets Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-27 13:01 +0100
  Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 06:45 -0700
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:57 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2015-03-18 20:09 +0100
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-18 08:59 -0700
    Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-20 21:47 -0700
      Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-21 02:30 -0700
        Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-21 17:52 -0700
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2015-03-22 01:27 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:15 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 13:47 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-22 18:39 -0400
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a (limping) Beginner's ANS Forth hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2015-03-22 16:32 -0700
            Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:35 +0000
              Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-27 15:55 -0400
                Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-03-28 03:36 -0400
          Re: What is the minimum Word set you could live with to have a(limping) Beginner's ANS Forth "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-26 06:34 +0000

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