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Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)?

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On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 20:38:35 -0400, <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Does anybody else notice the lack of self-consistency in Bernd's  
> argument?

Notice?  What Bernd says?  No...  Well, not that I'd admit to, anyway.

Of course, I have to ask if it was worth my time to read it.
Was it?  You're commenting on it, as if it was...

> On one hand, he disparages my idea of quotations [...]
> On the other hand, lots of languages use quotations or closures
> as their primary feature, [...]

It's a mutually exclusive argument.  He preemptively attempted to
exclude any and all possibilities that would allow for a viable
solution being posted by you.

> [Hugh apparently thinking we really care about his quotations?]
>

Hugh, ignore Bernd.  Do want you want.  Do what you think is best.
Do what you think works best.  Etc.

> Bernd should really stop calling my stuff "nested functions."

Why?  Why do you _care_ what *he* calls *your* stuff? ...  Everyone
else around here seems to be a non-caring sociopath.

> Mine are anonymous, [...]

Yeah!  What ... ?  Why?  Seriously, I've asked the same thing about
C's new anonymous objects.  The answer to that question seems to be
infinite silence.  Once the code is compiled, it's all anonymous.

> On the other hand, lots of languages use quotations or closures as
> their primary feature, and they are considered hugely useful.

The primary feature of many other languages are procedures or functions.
Although that's more noticeable in languages like C and Pascal, Forth
and even BASIC are in that category.  The point being:

Why do you need two primary methods of grouping and sequencing code
for execution?  Isn't one method sufficient?  I'm saying that octagonal
wheels might have some benefit when they're new, especially in the winter
or with off-road driving in mud, but over time, they'll naturally wear
into round ones which roll a bit easier...

> A lot of programmers have largely chilled out on OOP which was the
> silver-bullet of the 1990s, [...]

I didn't really see the point of OOP in regards to C++.  Yes, there
are some nice features, e.g., object.action syntax.  That can be
emulated in C with a struct and a loop.  But, for the most part all
OOP seemed to do was hide the code that would be eventually be
executed and make it difficult to determine which code would actually
be executed.  What purpose does that serve?  Have you ever tried to
track down a #define or where a global variable is initialize within
millions of lines of code?  I have: 5Mloc...  At best, OOP allows one to
"overload" the parameters to functions.  That's convenient, occasionally.
But, just how do you know which types are *disallowed* as parameters
when many multiple types of parameters are allowed to be passed to that
procedure because it's overloaded?  Do you have to look up that functions'
numerous parameter declarations?  PIA, if so...  Are these all in one
place or distributed all over the place?  More PIA, if so...  Do you have
to compile the code to find out?  That's bad language design, if so...

> [...] found quotations or closures to be much more useful --- I'm in
> this category.

Some people like GOTO's too...  Others like programming in hexadecimal.
A bunch of people around here prefer RPN, or so I've heard.

> On the subject of Factor, it uses quotations for control-structures.
> I considered doing that in my own language too.

It's your language.  Do what you want.  Are you asking for input from
others on your language design?  Forth is for those asking about Forth.
Try comp.lang.misc or comp.compilers.

> I decided to stick with traditional Forth control-structures however,
> because I don't want to get too far away from good-old Forth [...].

Why?  Aren't you afraid you might forgo or overlook some important
discovery by doing so?  Why are you forcing yourself to be constrained
to the conventional models you apparently hate?

> (and I don't want to give Rod ammo for saying that my language isn't
> Forth anymore).

If it's your language, just for you, why does it matter if it's Forth?
Is it because you desire that Forthers to adopt your language?  If the
result of adding quotations to Forth is novel, don't you want to be
known for creating a new, better language than Forth, say 1DUPF++ ,
instead of just being known for "fixing" Forth? ...

FYI, 1DUPF++ is a take on C++ but for Forth where 'F' represent Forth:
   1 DUP F + +

> Also, I couldn't figure out how to make quotation-based
> control-structures as efficient as traditional-Forth control-structures.

That's a bad start.  Work on it.  You might develop a new, better,
faster, leaner, quotation model that works with procedural languages.

> [...] whereas I am generating ITC [...]

Forth is primarily procedure or function based.  Each high-level Forth
word is a procedure or function.  ENTER or DOCOL is the procedure's call.
EXIT or SEMIS is the procedure's exit.  The interpreted implementations
of the Forth language is well designed for procedures but not so well
for branching.  This is why BRANCH and 0BRANCH or ?BRANCH are awkward
to implement within an ITC Forth.  Technically, Forth is 0-operand, i.e.,
it has no parameters.  In reality, that just means it's parameters are on
a stack, not formally passed, and not setup and cleaned up by the language.


Rod Pemberton

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What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 23:56 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-18 01:14 -0800
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 01:34 -0800
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 02:33 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-12-18 14:36 +0100
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 06:24 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-12-19 02:54 +0100
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 22:12 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-18 05:43 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-18 11:21 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 04:31 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 04:49 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 05:12 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-18 08:26 -1000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-18 11:03 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 11:21 -0800
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 11:19 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-18 10:08 -1000
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-18 21:58 +0100
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-19 14:15 +1100
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-19 13:32 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-20 21:07 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 12:35 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 13:02 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-22 14:19 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-22 10:15 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-24 12:30 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-28 11:08 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-28 11:40 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-26 18:03 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-26 10:34 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-27 15:53 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 17:26 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-28 17:53 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 18:21 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-29 14:49 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-29 20:45 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:08 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-30 20:00 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-28 18:04 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 18:47 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 19:12 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-28 11:09 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-28 13:45 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-18 19:04 -1000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-19 09:25 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 05:00 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 23:41 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 01:00 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 02:47 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 11:23 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 03:52 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-19 15:58 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 10:05 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-19 20:07 +0000
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 12:33 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-19 20:33 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-19 20:52 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 18:52 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-28 12:52 -0600
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-28 11:47 -0800
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-29 07:39 -0600
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-29 08:11 -0800
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-29 15:25 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-29 08:15 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-29 16:03 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-29 20:54 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-29 13:38 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:04 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-30 20:05 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-30 16:49 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 17:27 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-29 16:40 -0600
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 16:51 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 11:15 -0600
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:37 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:07 -0600
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 13:50 +0000
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-12-19 21:49 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 08:56 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-03 19:13 -0700
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-11 05:35 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-11 12:59 +0100
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-11 23:44 -0700
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-03-12 11:48 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-12 20:21 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-12 23:35 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-03-14 14:25 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-14 16:36 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2014-03-14 11:27 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-16 17:38 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-17 03:35 -0400
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-17 20:36 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 13:13 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-18 14:28 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-18 10:10 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-25 12:54 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-25 23:09 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-26 13:49 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-26 22:07 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-20 22:11 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-28 22:18 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-03-29 10:57 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-13 16:42 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-11 12:51 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-03-11 14:54 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 21:36 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-20 16:56 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 23:24 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-20 02:05 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-20 12:41 +0000
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-20 17:46 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-21 08:11 -0800
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-23 10:07 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-23 19:31 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-26 17:45 +0000

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