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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #52576

Re: I'm so conflicted...

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: I'm so conflicted...
Date 2016-11-12 23:18 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o08phk$dqj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (1 earlier) <d6e64e95-026d-433c-85f9-baed414c7460@googlegroups.com> <o05pmf$q1q$1@dont-email.me> <MPG.32910672c094ffb89896c2@news.virginmedia.com> <o07fgj$b1o$2@dont-email.me> <MPG.32919a4cba4ea77f9896c3@news.virginmedia.com>

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On 11/12/2016 4:30 PM, jim wrote:
>> In article <o07fgj$b1o$2@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On 11/12/2016 5:59 AM, jim wrote:
>>>> In article <o05pmf$q1q$1@dont-email.me>, gnuarm@gmail.com says...
>>>>
>>>> I find it amusing what programmers think programming is, or is not.
>>>> What is wrong with using libraries for the grunt work and writing the
>>>> "real" code that makes the application do what is needed?  Why is that
>>>> not "programming"?
>>>>
>>>> This sounds a bit arrogant.  "If they aren't programming the way I
>>>> program, it isn't programming".
>>>
>>>
>>> I would point out there is a big difference between "programming" and "coding"
>>> and what people call programming today is little more than scripting.
>>>
>>> What tends to happen over time is a large scale de-skilling and job title
>>> and task renaming that seems designed to hide the widespread de-skilling.
>>>
>>> How many companies employ "systems analysts" these day I wonder?
>>> And what do they do in between toilet breaks.
>>
>> At some point are you going to define "programming" in a useful way?
>
> I don't know about useful  but
>
> I hadn't thought of it as an issue but sure- I tend to agree with F.P. Brooks
> and his definition of a "Programming Systems Product"
> That is programming to me. It is rapidly becoming too physically dangerous
> to do it any other way.

But you didn't share that definition.  I'm don't think I'm going to buy 
a book to continue this discussion.  A search mostly gave me links about 
"The Mythical Man-Month".


> Anything less is scripting, or hacking or whatever else you call it.
> (I was trained in systems analysis and organisation and methods
> in the 1970's - perhaps explaining my bias.. things were different.)
>
> There's a big paragraph in his book I'll type out if you need it that
> describes it better.   (Chapter 1 - I just looked it up)
>
> bashing out say a few forth words and sticking a stack effect picture
> on the end doesn't even come close regardless of whether it performs a
> desired function or not.

You are using derogatory labels rather than explaining anything.


> You can go too far of course -  I had to suffer the use of SSADM once.
> By the time I had single handedly deforrested the african continent
> the job was defunct anyway. That's a methodology I'll never use again.
> It doesn't even perform its intended function most of the time.
>
> I notice some people are using footers - If no one objects I'd like
> to start adding my forum and johns site on something like this
> perhaps with an info line (dont know what yet).

You could shorten the white space at the end which I just have to delete 
in order to reply.  You also should use the standard marker for a footer 
which would allow a newsreader to trim it automatically.

-- 

Rick C

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Thread

I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-11 03:47 -0800
  I'm so conflicted... foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 04:37 -0800
  Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-11 05:29 -0800
    Re: I'm so conflicted... JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-11-11 05:33 -0800
    Re: I'm so conflicted... JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-11-11 05:35 -0800
    Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-11 20:02 -0500
      Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-12 10:59 +0000
        Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 11:21 -0500
          Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-12 21:30 +0000
            Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 23:18 -0500
              Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-13 12:28 +0000
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-13 10:50 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-13 19:14 +0000
                Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:11 -0500
                Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-14 09:44 +0000
        Re: I'm so conflicted... "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2016-11-20 01:51 +0000
      Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 10:32 -0800
        Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 13:52 -0500
          Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 11:55 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 23:19 -0500
              Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-13 18:16 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 23:14 -0500
                Re: I'm so conflicted... jim <anon@example.com> - 2016-11-14 09:51 +0000
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-14 04:04 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 03:11 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... "Robert L." <No_spamming@noWhere_7073.org> - 2016-11-20 23:50 +0000
        Re: I'm so conflicted... albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-12 20:11 +0100
  Re: I'm so conflicted... "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-12 00:34 +1100
  Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-11 16:19 -0800
    Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 10:34 -0800
      Re: I'm so conflicted... november.nihal@gmail.com - 2016-11-12 12:35 -0800
        Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-12 11:46 -1000
          Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-12 15:23 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-12 18:13 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-11-12 23:23 -0500
              Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-12 20:55 -1000
            Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-12 20:46 -1000
              Re: I'm so conflicted... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-13 01:06 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 12:59 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-13 18:27 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2016-11-13 20:34 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-11-13 17:56 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-14 14:53 +1100
                Re: I'm so conflicted... "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-11-13 22:04 -1000
          Re: I'm so conflicted... albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-13 10:51 +0100
  Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 03:10 -0800
    Re: I'm so conflicted... "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-11-15 01:03 +1100
      Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-14 07:31 -0800
        Re: I'm so conflicted... foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-11-14 13:29 -0800
          Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-15 03:02 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-11-15 13:39 +0100
        Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-15 18:22 -0800
          Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-16 01:32 -0800
            Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-16 13:00 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-16 13:04 -0800
              Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-16 13:42 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-17 12:28 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-17 22:14 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-19 15:01 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-19 16:55 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 10:36 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 10:43 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-11-20 11:15 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 13:57 -0800
                Re: I'm so conflicted... Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-28 13:26 -0500
          Re: I'm so conflicted... Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-11-16 10:25 +0000
            Re: I'm so conflicted... hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-11-16 12:33 -0800

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