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Re: OT: ANS Forth

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From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: OT: ANS Forth
Date Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:50:39 +0100
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Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> writes:
>> If your average word is ~3 lines or less, and you factor the contents
>> of loops as one or a few separate words, then it's really easy to test
>> things just by supplying appropriate arguments and typing the word, or
>> the things that make it up if that's where the trouble is.
> 
> Testing individual words isn't of much help when the problem you're
> debugging is with how some bigger subsystems interact, or with some
> weird edge case that you're testing missed, or some word getting
> unexpected input that it wasn't written to handle, etc.  Soemwhere in
> there, it's a safe bet, actual debugging is still going to be needed
> from time to time.

A lot of debugging I've done through the last year was the flow control 
algorithm of net2o.  Well, it didn't crash on wrong inputs, that's not the 
problem of a faulty flow control algorithm.  It filled buffers and dropped 
packets, which it shouldn't do.  And it only did so when there were more 
than one connections active in parallel, because that's the hard part - the 
single connection was easy and worked right out of the box.

So how would you debug this with breakpoints and single steps?  If you stop 
the program, the flow control won't be necessary.  If you stop it for too 
long, the other side will give up with a timeout error - it's a networked 
program, sender and receiver are on different computers.

The only way to get it right is to instrument the program, and trace all 
important informations.  What to trace depends on which functionality you 
want to check.

I even started to send the trace records around as part of the net2o 
protocol.

The extensibility of Forth includes the debugging.  You have to solve a 
task?  You write a domain specific language.  You have to debug this?  You 
write domain-specific debugging features.  If you develop a network 
protocol, you need a protocol analyzer.  It will be written as part of the 
entire effort.

These tools are often pretty small.  E.g. take a look here:

https://fossil.net2o.de/net2o/artifact/16124d717233f7079e4f28b93d6c52ae233c7667

This debugging facility has now partly included into Gforth, and I'm 
probably moving more into Gforth (also the profiling stuff).  You can 
instrument your code with debugging outputs, embraced in <name>( ), and turn 
these named debugging chunks on and off as you like (at run-time).

>> A lot of Forths automatically display the stack, which facilitates
>> this style. And FORTH, Inc. systems record your command window, so you
>> can "replay" test sequences if you want to.
> 
> What good is automatically displaying the stack if it's changing
> millions of times per second?  You have to be able to stop execution of
> the program to look at the stack.  Breakpoints help with that.

No, you just have to be able to look back at your trace dump.  Stop the 
program?  Doesn't work if it is a real time program, it can't be stopped.

> Also, are those tethered Forths that you're describing, that display the
> stack and record the command window?  Or do resident Forths also do
> that?

For embedded systems, usually the terminal does the command window 
recording.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 22:51 +0100
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-07 22:08 +0000
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:32 -0800
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:40 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:06 -0800
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 17:07 -0800
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 14:36 -0800
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-07 23:46 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 16:38 -1000
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 10:22 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-08 10:26 +0000
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-07 12:50 -1000
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:15 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-02-08 14:51 -0600
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:02 +0100
  Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:21 -0500
    Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:30 +0100
      Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 00:39 +0100
        Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-07 18:51 -0500
          Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 12:28 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-08 12:25 +0000
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:04 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-09 15:27 +0000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:36 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 05:01 -0800
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 21:58 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:08 -0500
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-08 10:11 -0500
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 22:05 +0100
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 08:29 -0800
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 18:48 +0100
            Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 17:20 -0500
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-08 23:32 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 23:57 -0500
              Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:02 -1000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 02:24 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 15:58 -1000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:43 +0100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:03 -1000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-10 11:35 +1100
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 23:48 -0800
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 16:37 +0100
                OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-09 17:27 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 10:06 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-09 12:26 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-09 14:38 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 12:52 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-22 09:25 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-10 08:15 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 23:34 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2013-02-11 22:14 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-11 13:34 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-11 11:52 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-10 17:11 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-10 22:06 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Charles Childers" <crc@retroforth.org> - 2013-02-11 17:17 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-13 11:42 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-12 16:07 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-15 09:42 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-02-15 00:16 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-02-17 16:05 +1100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 04:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-17 13:12 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-17 09:15 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-19 09:35 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 19:25 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 15:35 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:37 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 23:07 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:38 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 08:50 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:44 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 03:41 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 20:00 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-24 13:49 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 15:04 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 14:52 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-24 23:51 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 16:23 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 03:55 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-22 13:01 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-22 12:26 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-19 21:54 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-19 18:21 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-20 08:45 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-20 11:01 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 11:25 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 00:22 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-20 22:50 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 01:08 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-21 12:42 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:50 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:36 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:32 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:50 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 03:03 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-02-21 09:12 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:38 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:01 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-02-22 00:05 +0200
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-21 13:24 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-21 09:33 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-21 13:04 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:41 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:31 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-23 09:15 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:33 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:49 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:35 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-23 13:46 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 15:26 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-02-24 09:41 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-21 09:09 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:37 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-23 13:57 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-23 08:47 -1000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-22 01:27 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 00:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-23 04:36 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-23 16:52 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-23 12:39 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 16:27 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2013-02-23 18:08 -0500
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 02:20 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-02-24 20:16 -0800
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:04 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-25 17:12 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:44 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 16:45 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-24 02:09 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-24 04:03 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-25 17:58 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-02-25 20:57 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-02 16:43 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-02 18:14 +0100
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-03 13:56 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-24 03:45 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-13 04:12 -0600
                Re: OT: ANS Forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-02-13 12:24 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-02-11 14:41 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth Andy Valencia <user@vsta.org> - 2013-02-11 19:44 +0000
                Re: OT: ANS Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-02-11 21:14 +0000
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-02-09 18:14 -0600
                Re: 3D-graphics calculations using integers? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 00:06 -0500

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