Re: DTC

From	"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: DTC
Date	2012-12-05 20:39 -0500
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<k9osng$1pf$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
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"Hugh Aguilar" <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3cfcf1ea-df96-45e4-be03-b6da801b6fb5@m4g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 5, 12:48 am, Mark Wills <forthfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 5, 6:31 am, Ron Aaron <rambam...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> > > I'm sure Microsoft and Apple would be fascinated to find
> > > out their software is given away for free!
>
> > Well, not all software is given away for free, but an awful
> > lot of it is. I'd argue that practically all of Apple's
> > software is in fact given away for free. It's a loss leader to
> > sell the hardware.
>
> All software is a loss-leader to sell hardware.

It's generally the reverse, but can be either, both or neither.

> The difference between micro-controllers and desktop-computers,
> is that with micro-controllers you are selling the hardware, so
> it makes sense for you to provide it with software to give it
> value.  With desktop-computer software, somebody else (Dell,
> etc.) is selling the hardware, and you are providing software to
> give it value but not getting paid. The reason why MicroSoft
> gets paid, is because they have a deal to bundle their software
> with the hardware, and the hardware vendors pay them for this.
> Theoretically, MicroSoft will eventually fail when the hardware
> vendors switch over to bundling Linux, which makes sense for
> them considering that the Linux programmers are willing to work
> for free ---  [...]

Was that the theory?  Lol!  I'll ignore the fact the "theory" is
faulty.  Linux has had two decades now ...  What happened?

> [...] this will never happen though, because
> the American federal government has standardized on Windows
> for their own bureaus, meaning that MicroSoft has a monopoly
> [...]

That's first I've heard of that rationale for MS having a
monopoly.  But, I'd say it's a very good idea to have those who
once "attacked" you via abuse of authority as a complicit partner
in your "crimes" of monopoly.

> Richard Stallman was right when he said that programming is a
> service, but that programs aren't products.

Is he confused?

> The days of programs getting sold
> in shrink-wrapped packages containing a pile of disks and a
> stack of manuals, is long gone (I bought TASM like that, in
> a store's going-out-of-business sale).

True.

> Nowadays, most programming is done writing software
> that will be run once and will become obsolete a week later --- 

True.

> [...] this
> is typically software that supports a moving target, such as
> health-care billing in which the regulations change almost
> daily at the whim of a byzantine bureaucracy. I myself wrote
> IBM370 assembly-language software for direct-mail, so the
> software became obsolete a week later after the mailing was
> done --- the company that I worked for had one of the few
> licenses from the Post Office to do that and get the
> big discount on postage.

So true.

Business has to do what is legally required.  So, the
irrationality inherent in the law is therefore irrelevant.

I had to do much the same when programming for the brokerage
industry about a decade ago.  I had to implement any SEC or
regulatory changes in securities law as code to prohibit stock
traders from breaking the laws.  Of course, I had generally zero
help from the legal department to help determine what the laws
meant.  They were too busy.  My direct management was utterly
incompetent, i.e., 4 hours of fantasy football, 1 hour of
bullshitting, 1 hour in a random meeting that had nothing to do
with our department, and a 2 hour lunch with drinking during
the allotted one hour lunch break.  So, there was generally no
help there either.  Sometimes, it was impossible to implement.
The entire application would've needed to be scrapped.  The one
time the legal department decided the issue was important enough
to "help" me, our in-house legal team spent nearly all day arguing
about what the law actually meant.  Then, they spent and hour on
how it could affect the company, and what it would cost them under
various scenarios.  Eventually, five minutes before it was time to
go home for the day (hint), they decided they'd rather just fight
it out in court for a violation of the law than have me implement
the law in code.  That was the first time I truly wondered why I
was there.  It was farcical.  I felt like becoming an overpaid,
underworked, lazy, incompetent, corporate lawyer, just like them.
I had no understanding of the law, but I could still do no worse.

> It is a battle between fascists and communists --- on one hand
> we have the fascists who want MicroSoft to have a monopoly,
> and for everybody to pay for their software --- on the other
> hand we have the GNU communists who want all software to
> be given away for free, but for programmers to get paid by the
> hour to make custom upgrades to the software (after investing
> years of their own time in writing the software for free).

Fascists?  Did you mean Socialists?  Or, perhaps Capitalists ... ?

If not, you may wish to review fascism and socialism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

I.e., communism and socialism are related to an economic system,
whereas fascism isn't ...

> Neither plan is very good, but I would prefer
> communism to fascism --- 

I prefer capitalism.  I'm not quite sure why you mentioned fascism
and communism together instead of socialism and communism ...

> [...] mostly because I don't think that MicroSoft
> is going to hire me.

Irrelevant.

There are lots of tech companies making money, e.g., Apple,
Google.  Recently, Apple earned more than Microsoft, Google, eBay,
Yahoo!, Facebook, and Amazon combined.  If you can program well,
someone will hire you.  You might not be payed as well as you
should be.  But, in overpriced or expensive west coast and east
coast markets, you can still do well.

Rod Pemberton

Thread

DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-27 08:01 -0800
  Re: DTC Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-11-27 08:55 -0800
    Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-27 09:01 -0800
  Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-27 17:42 -0800
    Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-27 23:50 -0800
      Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 04:41 -0600
        Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 02:48 -0800
          Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 05:27 -0600
            Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 03:51 -0800
              Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-28 21:56 -0800
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-29 01:26 -0800
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-29 22:34 -0800
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-30 01:42 -0800
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-30 13:18 -0800
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-01 01:42 -0800
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-03 15:25 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-03 16:18 -0800
                Re: DTC "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-12-03 21:20 -0500
                Re: DTC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-12-03 17:29 -1000
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-04 00:12 -0800
                Re: DTC Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-12-05 11:35 -0800
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-04 20:17 -0800
                Re: DTC Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-12-05 08:31 +0200
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-04 23:48 -0800
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-04 23:53 -0800
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-05 12:13 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-05 15:26 -0800
                Re: DTC Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 06:32 +0200
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 01:07 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-06 04:23 -0800
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-06 15:49 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 07:42 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-06 08:30 -0800
                Re: DTC Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-12-06 09:45 -0800
                Re: DTC albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-06 21:41 +0000
                Re: DTC "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-06 23:15 +0100
                Re: DTC albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-08 01:27 +0000
                Re: DTC "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-08 11:19 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-08 03:55 -0800
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-08 13:44 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-08 06:05 -0800
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-08 18:35 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-08 11:20 -0800
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-09 01:01 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-08 06:10 -0800
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-08 18:57 +0100
                Re: DTC "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-08 19:46 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-08 11:23 -0800
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-08 13:37 +0100
                Re: DTC "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-08 14:41 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-08 06:15 -0800
                Re: DTC "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-08 17:07 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 14:16 -0800
                Re: DTC Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-12-07 09:00 -0800
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 14:21 -0800
                Re: DTC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-12-06 08:01 -1000
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 14:18 -0800
                Re: DTC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-12-06 13:48 -1000
                Re: DTC "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-12-06 19:03 -0500
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-07 02:59 -0800
                Re: DTC albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-06 13:13 +0000
                Re: DTC "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-12-05 20:39 -0500
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-06 15:46 +0100
                Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 07:47 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-06 08:36 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-12-05 04:03 -0800
                Re: DTC "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 20:30 -0800
                Re: DTC David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2012-12-11 23:52 -0500
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-12 10:59 -0800
                Re: DTC David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2012-12-31 02:43 -0500
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-02 00:44 -0800
            Re: DTC albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-11-28 13:54 +0000
              Re: DTC "Clyde W. Phillips Jr." <cwpjr02@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 20:16 -0800
    Re: DTC "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-11-28 06:58 -0500
      Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 04:50 -0800
        Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 07:08 -0600
          Re: DTC Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 06:02 -0800
            Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 08:23 -0600
          Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-28 14:18 +0000
            Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 08:32 -0600
              Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-28 15:00 +0000
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 09:18 -0600
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-28 16:36 +0000
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 11:02 -0600
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-28 17:13 +0000
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 12:03 -0600
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-28 18:12 +0000
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-28 12:32 -0600
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-29 14:30 +0000
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-29 18:05 +0100
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-11-29 11:19 -0800
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-30 03:14 -0600
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-30 14:12 +0000
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-30 10:32 -0600
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-30 16:40 +0000
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-12-01 15:34 +0000
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-01 21:23 +0100
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-12-03 16:28 +0000
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-03 18:44 +0100
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-12-03 04:50 -0600
                Re: DTC Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-03 16:48 +0100
                Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-12-03 15:59 +0000
                Re: DTC albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-11-30 15:34 +0000
                Re: DTC Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-11-30 10:36 -0600
                Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-30 12:47 -0800
                Re: DTC Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-11-28 11:29 -0800
        Re: DTC "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-11-29 04:15 -0500
          Re: DTC "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-11-29 08:52 -1000
      Re: DTC Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-11-28 22:25 -0800
        Re: DTC "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-11-29 04:12 -0500
  Re: DTC humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 02:04 -0800
  Re: DTC anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-11-28 14:21 +0000

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