Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.lang.forth > #48981
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-07-09 03:56 -0700 |
| References | <2016Jul1.181039@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <42fca95a-b021-4a83-866f-54cbf8685dfd@googlegroups.com> <a400b1f3-d861-4462-b284-b0572eec0b5f@googlegroups.com> <972fd5fb-43a2-4ccb-994d-96ea4f3e878a@googlegroups.com> |
| Message-ID | <bf24fa61-c175-4baf-bb6d-e653d109cf05@googlegroups.com> (permalink) |
| Subject | Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations |
| From | JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> |
On Saturday, 9 July 2016 06:28:27 UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 2:29:45 PM UTC-7, JennyB wrote: > > On Thursday, 7 July 2016 05:01:34 UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Friday, July 1, 2016 at 5:57:19 PM UTC-7, hughag...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Straight Forth has a 64-bit cell, but has 32-bit addresses. This means that there is plenty of room in an xt for both the 32-bit cfa of the quotation and the 32-bit pointer to the parent function's local-frame. This is not "relatively complex" nor does it "impose a run-time overhead" --- this is super-simple! > > > > Maybe so, and if the Standard specifies "Paysan Faked Quotations" (PFQs) a Forth implementer may choose that or any other method to allows AQs (Aguilar's Quotations) and still be Standard compliant. If enough decide to do that, then perhaps the will be extended to include AQs > > Straight Forth and ANS-Forth are not compatible. You can't have a fat-xt in ANS-Forth or Forth-200x. VFX has a 'fat xt' that allows its compiling behaviour to be found from the xt alone. You can't take advantage of that is Standard code, but that's a different matter. All the Standard does is allow you to know whether particular source code can run on your system without having to go through it line-by-line. A system does not have to implement all the Standard wordsets, nor need its own source code confine itself to words that can be defined in the Standard. Straight Forth will be under the same constraints. You need to define its interface with the hardware it runs on very carefully. Once code has been released that adheres to the published standard. it must continue to work on different hardware as that standard evolves. So far, I have seen a number of statements from you to the effect that "it would be trivial to implement that on Straight Forth - I may or I may not." It's trivial to do *anything* given a clean sheet of paper, but as Chuck used to say, you can't do *everything*. You have to pick and choose. You've chosen, it seems, for Straight Forth to support only 64-bit processors (a 64-bit stack will be costly on anything less) That's fine, your choice. What other assumptions have you made about its requirements? Which of the ANS wordsets will it not be possible to write in Straight Forth? > > > > > In the meantime, we have the LFT (local-fall-through) method that can be used in various ANS-Forth systems (it is not ANS-Forth compliant however). > > > > The question is - whether AQs are valuable enough for implementers of existing Forths to upgrade their implementation of local variables, and perhaps break existing non-Standard code that depends on carnal knowledge of how locals work. > > Upgrade their implementation of local variables? What??? My mistake. I thought maybe there would be some local implementations where the parent locals were not easily accessible - but the system has to know where they are anyway to restore them, so it should be trivial to write for any given system, given the restrictions you set. You have to make the case though, that its worth doing. I haven't seen any application code that needs this, and apparently there is no existing practice of using AQs in any existing Forth system. Can you point to some application code that would be Standard compliant apart from the fact that it uses this construct, and demonstrate that it is faster, or clearer? > > You are totally not understanding the purpose of allowing the quotation to access the parent function's locals --- the purpose is so the quotation can upfeed data to the parent --- you're assuming that the purpose is to pass data from the parent to the quotation. OK, show me an example of that. > > Another thing you don't understand is that I'm not arguing for changes to be made to Forth-200x --- I consider Forth-200x to be worthless; also, I am aware that the RfD has been pre-approved by Leon Wagner and is guaranteed to be accepted, so arguing against it is waste of time --- I'm just pointing out that the LFT method can be made to work in a non-standard way in most existing ANS-Forth systems as a stop-gap until Straight Forth is available. I understand that. I don't understand why, in that case, you are lurking on the Forth 200x mailing list. > This is my point. ANS-Forth and Forth-200x are crippleware --- they were designed specifically to prevent Forth programmers from having useful features --- this was done to induce the Forth programmers to buy commercial Forth compilers that are non-standard and trap them in vendor lock-in. ANS-Forth and Forth-200x are not software of any kind. They are source code publication standards. If you want to write code that other systems can run, or run code that other people have written, then it's a good idea for your Forth to understand Standard code. That doesn't mean your system has to be limited to what the Standard covers. Go ahead and implement AQs or whatever else your heart desires in whatever way you wish. If the commercial compilers already provide it, you may find it more sensible to buy one of those. That, again is your choice. Even if there was a Standard tailored exactly to your needs you would still have to buy a compiler, write your own, or pay someone to do it for you. What you can't expect is for people to change the inner workings of their systems (maybe breaking code of their own) just so they can run your source code, especially if your code has no proven history of use. That is precisely why Standards take so long to evolve.
Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
3rd RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-01 16:10 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 11:21 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 11:58 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 12:53 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 16:05 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-01 19:00 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 18:22 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-01 21:16 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Wasell <from_usenet@wasell.eu> - 2016-07-02 13:04 +0200
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-02 09:39 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-02 16:33 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-07-02 11:50 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 10:45 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:24 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-07-03 11:48 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-03 07:08 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 11:49 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 08:25 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 16:57 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-07-05 07:40 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-05 01:38 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations alex@rivadpm.com - 2016-07-05 01:33 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-05 02:28 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 10:06 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-05 20:57 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 00:12 +0300
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-05 22:45 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 10:50 +0300
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-06 03:31 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 09:07 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2016-07-04 21:08 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 09:10 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-02 19:24 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 16:19 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 23:18 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 21:54 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 03:10 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-03 09:35 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:19 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-03 01:45 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 11:52 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:10 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-02 13:27 -1000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 16:54 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 23:27 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-08-05 00:30 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-07-08 21:15 +1000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 07:39 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-07-09 17:08 +1000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-08 23:22 -1000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2016-07-08 20:42 +1000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Alex McDonald <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-07-01 21:51 +0100
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 17:57 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-01 18:47 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-02 07:55 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-04 17:03 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations alex@rivadpm.com - 2016-07-05 01:38 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 10:16 -0400
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-05 10:48 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-07-05 20:18 +0200
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2016-08-05 00:42 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations julian.fondren@endurance.com - 2016-08-04 19:44 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-06 21:01 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-07 07:54 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 08:17 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 08:41 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2016-07-08 10:21 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-08 14:29 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-08 22:28 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-09 03:56 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-09 09:51 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 01:25 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 01:56 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 02:09 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-13 14:04 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-14 00:32 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 01:25 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-16 14:52 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-16 20:25 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-18 12:46 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 14:38 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-18 16:03 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-18 17:27 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-14 02:46 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-15 08:33 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-15 16:59 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-15 23:30 -0700
Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-16 02:42 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 05:47 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-07-16 15:41 +0200
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-16 07:16 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-16 07:27 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 09:52 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-16 11:46 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 03:11 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 03:18 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 03:47 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-17 05:43 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 06:00 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 08:32 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-17 23:49 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 00:39 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-16 07:57 -0700
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-07-18 12:18 +0200
Re: Universal Delimiters - was Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 04:04 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-10 21:23 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-07-09 14:30 +0200
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations mhx@iae.nl - 2016-07-09 05:51 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-09 09:01 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-09 07:40 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-07-09 12:27 -0500
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-09 11:24 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-30 02:03 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-09 14:36 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Håkan Thörngren <hth313@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 12:58 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 21:59 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-09 23:11 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 00:14 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-12 01:06 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-12 05:31 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-12 09:00 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-13 03:44 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 11:36 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-13 23:03 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-14 01:23 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-07-12 08:57 -1000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-12 22:53 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 01:09 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-07-10 18:18 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-11 01:35 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 18:18 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 08:24 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-10 06:53 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Håkan Thörngren <hth313@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 00:53 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-10 16:57 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-07-10 02:26 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-10 06:49 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-10 11:04 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations JennyB <jennybrien@googlemail.com> - 2016-07-10 12:51 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2016-07-10 13:21 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 13:23 -0700
3rd RfD: Quotations anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-07-28 16:56 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-07-28 16:29 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-29 00:50 +0000
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-11 12:15 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-08-11 13:25 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-11 20:57 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2016-08-11 13:59 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-11 21:11 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2016-08-12 00:30 -0700
Re: 3rd RfD: Quotations hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-08-12 11:05 -0700
csiph-web