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Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no?

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Mark Wills wrote:

> On Sep 10, 2:58 am, Paul Rubin <no.em...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erat...@forth.com> writes:
>>
>> > Paul Bennett here specializes in applications with extremely high
>> > reliability and validation requirements. He uses Forth quite
>> > successfully in these applications.
>>
>> He uses processes that require a lot of up-front design, specifications,
>> manual code reviews, etc.  This is necessary for the critical systems he
>> works with, no matter what technology is used, so if he's doing well
>> with Forth, that's great.  The typical internet startup (that seems to
>> be what most programmers around here are doing) is willing to accept a
>> little more technical risk, since if some feature of a web site
>> misbehaves because of a code bug, nobody's car crashes and probably
>> nobody will even notice until the programmers push out a fix a few hours
>> later.
>>
>> The result is they are able to develop with far more aggressive
>> schedules than a critical-systems approach could keep up with.  (They
>> can't deliver similar reliability assurances, but they aren't tasked
>> with doing so).  There are some design meetings with whiteboard
>> drawings, and some informal documentation such as bug tracker comments,
>> but the design-code-test-ship cycle is very lightweight and fast
>> compared with critical-systems projects, from what I can tell.  The
>> customer's overwhelming priority is usually to get working product out
>> as fast as possible, and they don't care much about machine resources as
>> long as it doesn't send costs through the roof.
>>
>> I'm a big admirer of what Paul Bennett does but I don't think his
>> situation is really typical.  Most of us have different constraints and
>> have to use different methods.
> 
> What's typical just depends on what your day job is ;-)
> 
> I work in the subsea oil and gas industry. My company monitors and
> controls the oil/gas wells, manifolds and risers that deliver product
> from the under the sea to the topside platforms/FPSO's. It's
> definately mission critical: If you screw up, you really could end up
> with a Gulf of Mexico type situation. I'd say the work I do is
> probably quite similar to Paul Bennet's line of work. Though I don't
> do SIL stuff much, we tend to contract that out to companies like ABB,
> Yokogawa or Hima Sella.
> 
> So, my 'typical' development cycle is:
> 
> * Requirements capture and review
> * Front end design

Somewhere in these first two stages we are allowed a little exploratory 
prototype work but none of that goes any further than extracting something 
useful for the requirements specification. Prototype tools include Forth, 
Spreadsheets and the occasional simulation environment. What comes out of 
this is pretty good but the next step is still extremely important to us.

> * Peer review (where the design is torn to peices!)
> * Integration of comments into design
> * Peer review
> (loop until all parties happy)
> * Final design review
> * Detailed design (plus review cycles)
> * Implementation
> * In house testing
> * Factory acceptance testing
> * Final Integration Testing
> * Commissioning
> * Final testing / punch-list resolving
> * Hand over
 
> I'd say coding is 20% of the job. Documentation/reviews/meetings/
> minutes etc is 80%

I have the ratio as between 15% to 85% and 21% and 79% (with just software). 
More often than not I also have hardware design to include for and that gets 
to be a split of 10% software 15% hardware and 75% 
documentation/reviews/meetings etc.
 
> I would also say that it could potentially apply in the web world too.
> If you are designing a payment portal ala Paypal, part of the process
> will be reviewing the design to ensure that it's secure. That will
> entail peer and possibly 3rd party reviews, NDAs, the whole shebang.
> Ditto an email portal - it's not as simple as using HTTPS (as I'm sure
> you do appreciate!). Ditto any kind of commercial portal - Walmart,
> Apple, Amazon etc.

Sometimes one could wish it applied more often in the web-world.
 
> I'd be very surprised if any startup these days was just flat-out
> balls-to-the-wall coding. In the 90's maybe. The web is such a hostile
> place, and since your web presence *is* your business, it has to be
> treated as mission critical "must not fail". That would include
> mitigation strategies to keep your business online in the event of DOS
> attacks etc.
> 
> Yep. Glad I don't work in the web world! Yack!
Me too!
-- 
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-510979
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

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abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 13:20 -0700
  Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-22 17:31 -0700
  Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 06:25 +0300
    Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 08:41 -0700
      Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-25 03:46 -0400
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 10:03 -0700
      Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 04:51 -0700
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-26 06:03 -0400
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 20:19 -0700
          Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 04:38 -0700
            Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 12:37 -0700
              Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-29 18:53 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-29 12:30 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-29 14:37 -0500
              Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-29 18:53 +0000
              Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-08 22:14 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-09 01:12 +0200
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-08 18:04 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-09 15:01 -1000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-09 18:57 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-09 18:47 -1000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-10 01:19 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-10 08:18 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 16:21 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-10 18:41 +0100
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-11 00:37 +0200
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-11 19:07 +0100
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-12 00:32 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-10 09:09 -0400
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-10 06:49 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 15:17 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or  no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-10 14:17 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or  no? Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-09-14 11:54 -0400
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-15 02:11 -0700
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 12:11 +0000
                Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-09-14 03:22 -0700
        Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:13 -0700
    Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:16 -0700
      Re: abstraction: do haskell and lisp beat forth in abstraction? or no? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 17:44 -1000

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