Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me

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From	mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix)
Subject	Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
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Date	Sun, 21 Oct 2012 12:22:31 +0200
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Spam@ControlQ.com writes Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me

> On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Anonymous wrote:
[..]
>>> Perhaps you should recalibrate "The interpreter has every right to break."
>>>
>>> Don't you really mean that interpreters should support bad application
>>> code, and give meaningful error messages??
[..]
> Admittedly, run time bounds checking has a price, but if this were under 
> the control of a global setting, one might use a "safe" mode to debug new 
> code, and a "fast" mode to run production code.

The Forth language specification does not define arrays. How do you let 
the interpreter do automatic bounds checking then? In my experience bounds
checks for ordinary variables is not needed when one uses (F)(D)X)(Z)VALUEs
instead (i.e the type can be a problem more than the index).  

Programmers that have trouble with out-of-bounds accesses are advised to
write their array code including checks. "Safe" array definers are 
one of the most published (and least used) code snippets in Forth.

> I'm not proposing global bounds checking, but low hanging fruit like stack 
> overflow/underflow should and could be handled this way, and perhaps 
> dictionary and heap management should be simple to check.  Indeed, forth 
> encourages system exploration in an interactive environment, so this 
> cannot be too restrictive ...

> IMHO.

If you check out a few modern Forths, you will notice that they already
do all of what you propose above (and more)?

A long time ago I proposed that Forthers post all the silly mistakes they
make when writing something new (or debugging/using something old). 
Unfortunately there were no reactions.

Most bugs that I make myself are related to specifications (unclear, or
incomplete, or too difficult/timeconsuming to get right for the first 
version). There is also a large number of problems related to interfacing
with other programs or the OS (e.g. a file that is written by A that
must be opened by B but the OS/A takes its time to really write it). 

A very large number of bugs (and very murky code) is related to 
trying to make a program run on both Windows and Linux, or to support 
interfaces to more than one external program (e.g. both LTSpice and 
NGSpice, or both sockets and pipes, or FORTRAN and C-style interfacing).
It seems to be generally better to write the program in a very modular
way for one situation and then port it to the other ones. However, at
some point you do the port, and maintainance/upgrading doesn't work that way.

-marcel

Thread

FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-17 16:56 -0500
  Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me all2001@spambog.com (Wolfgang Allinger) - 2012-10-17 19:11 -0300
    Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:15 -0700
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-18 05:25 -0500
  Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-18 00:14 +0200
    Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-17 18:45 -0400
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Anonymous <nobody@remailer.paranoici.org> - 2012-10-18 08:49 +0000
        Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-18 15:58 -0400
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-18 21:53 +0000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-19 18:39 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-19 23:22 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2012-10-21 13:40 -0500
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-19 21:00 -1000
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-20 09:18 +0200
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-20 08:40 -1000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-21 12:22 +0200
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-21 08:46 -0400
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-18 21:08 +0200
        Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 12:29 -0700
  Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-17 20:24 -0700
    Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-19 19:46 -0400
      Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-19 18:46 -0700
        Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-20 21:03 -0400
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-20 15:40 -1000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-20 18:52 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-20 16:27 -1000
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-20 20:56 -0700
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-21 09:40 -0400
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-21 12:51 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-21 23:50 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-21 17:11 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl - 2012-10-22 00:19 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 00:41 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-22 09:31 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 08:13 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-22 21:40 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 13:14 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-22 10:41 -1000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-22 23:21 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 14:27 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-22 14:16 -1000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-23 21:42 +0100
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me vandys@vsta.org - 2012-10-22 00:24 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 04:12 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 01:40 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 02:39 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 02:30 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 22:27 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2012-11-04 22:18 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-11-05 15:35 +0100
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 12:22 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-22 12:51 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 23:40 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-23 12:50 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 09:13 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-25 12:31 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 09:58 -0700
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-21 16:24 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-22 02:51 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-21 19:55 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-22 03:02 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 03:50 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 01:03 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-22 10:12 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-22 10:08 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-22 18:06 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-10-22 22:14 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-23 00:50 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-23 03:43 +0200
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-23 03:14 -0500
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 19:54 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-22 22:59 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-24 09:23 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-23 10:33 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-24 10:05 -0700
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-24 14:56 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-23 11:50 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-23 14:39 +0000
                Application Benchmarks (was: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-23 15:59 +0000
                Re: Application Benchmarks (was: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-10-24 14:33 +0000
                Re: Application Benchmarks (was: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-25 14:19 +0000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 03:56 -0400
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-21 22:12 -1000
                Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-22 02:51 -0700
          Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-21 05:29 -0500
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-21 09:35 -0400
            Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-21 15:44 +0200
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-21 18:43 -0500
              Re: FORTH Trouble--Please Show Me "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotz.cnm> - 2012-10-22 04:20 -0400

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