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[sot] obstacles

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  [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 10:17 -0700
    Re: [sot] obstacles fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 10:46 -0700
      Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 15:15 -0700
        Re: [sot] obstacles fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 15:34 -0700
          Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 15:52 -0700
            Re: [sot] obstacles fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 16:16 -0700
              Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 00:17 -0700
                Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 00:34 -0700
              Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 06:29 -0700
        Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 15:38 -0700
          Re: [sot] obstacles fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 15:51 -0700
            Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 16:07 -0700
              Re: [sot] obstacles Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 03:46 +0000
                Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 12:53 -0700
                  Re: [sot] obstacles Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-17 15:49 -0500
                    Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 16:12 -0700
                      Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 16:24 -0700
                        Re: [sot] obstacles Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-17 18:42 -0500
                      Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 16:50 -0700
                  Re: [sot] obstacles Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 20:36 -0700
            Re: [sot] obstacles fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 07:17 -0700

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#60155 — [sot] obstacles

(by sot i mean 'sligthtly off topic', as
i said this is a bit more philosophical or meta
but for c coders, and i do not consider such
topics 100% offtopic here)

Question is simple in my coding work the worse think i met, and the worse problem i got is
a thing i call obstacles - It is usually i
can code something work at something and it is 
okay progress is done but then come some obstacle
and that is real problem

could maybe someone say what is or was such obstacle for him? was it possible to overcome or 
not? what to do in such cases? maybe some thoughts?

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#60164

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:17:59 PM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> (by sot i mean 'sligthtly off topic', as
> i said this is a bit more philosophical or meta
> but for c coders, and i do not consider such
> topics 100% offtopic here)
> 
> Question is simple in my coding work the worse think i met, and the worse
> problem i got is
> a thing i call obstacles - It is usually i
> can code something work at something and it is 
> okay progress is done but then come some obstacle
> and that is real problem
> 
> could maybe someone say what is or was such obstacle for him? was it possible
> to overcome or not? what to do in such cases? maybe some thoughts?
>

It sort of depends on the "obstacle" and if it "depends" on you or not: if, for
example, you are working on a project that runs on a network of servers and
the router dies there's nothing much to do, except for going home early.

If, instead, you get stuck on a problem that you cannot solve for lack of
experience, just be patient, solve it somehow, and study what you're lacking in
your spare time. This way you accumulate experience, so with time this kind of
situations will be less and less frequent.

M2C,
Ciao!

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#60178

W dniu czwartek, 16 kwietnia 2015 19:46:41 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:17:59 PM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > (by sot i mean 'sligthtly off topic', as
> > i said this is a bit more philosophical or meta
> > but for c coders, and i do not consider such
> > topics 100% offtopic here)
> > 
> > Question is simple in my coding work the worse think i met, and the worse
> > problem i got is
> > a thing i call obstacles - It is usually i
> > can code something work at something and it is 
> > okay progress is done but then come some obstacle
> > and that is real problem
> > 
> > could maybe someone say what is or was such obstacle for him? was it possible
> > to overcome or not? what to do in such cases? maybe some thoughts?
> >
> 
> It sort of depends on the "obstacle" and if it "depends" on you or not: if, for
> example, you are working on a project that runs on a network of servers and
> the router dies there's nothing much to do, except for going home early.
> 
> If, instead, you get stuck on a problem that you cannot solve for lack of
> experience, just be patient, solve it somehow, and study what you're lacking in
> your spare time. This way you accumulate experience, so with time this kind of
> situations will be less and less frequent.
> 
this sounds for me like about minor obstacles that could be resolved in few hours or few ten of hour etc - but the one i personally got are way harder and i REALLY dont know what to do when i am blocked by them -- it is not much about 'how' to code something but more like 'what and how' to code at all (it is more related maybe to creative side as im mainly doing (or trying to do) some gamedev (there are or at least i dont know just any tutorial how to do some bit complex things and I
theoretocaly should invent it all by myself
and hot any clue what really do and how) - but obstacles here are really hard - I wonder if others have the same kind of trouble

( this 'what and how in creative way ' would be the first type of obstacle probably, 
second kind of obstacle would be 'some things are well described etc, but to learn adm make this just take too much time - but this 2nd obstacle is probably at all easier than the first)

I wonder if other coders are also this way limited by obstacles as me, and what those obstacles are 

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#60179

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:15:23 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> <snip>
> ( this 'what and how in creative way ' would be the first type of obstacle
> probably, 
>

Probably "creative" has the wrong meaning in your mind.

A coder is "creative" as a painter is: a painter knows exactly how to draw,
for example, a man, but chooses to represent it in its own way because of
reasons. In the same way, a coder knows exactly how to solve a problem, but
sometimes chooses a different way because of well, whatever, engineering is
the art of compromises.
An experienced coder rarely get "stuck" somewhere, because he almost always
has a sub-optimal solution, that almost always is well inside the constraints
he has.

Or maybe you are talking about being "creative" in a broader way, that is,
not while coding. In that case I have no idea, it's a completely different
job that has nothing to do with coding.

Ciao!

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#60183

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:34:33 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:15:23 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > <snip>
> > ( this 'what and how in creative way ' would be the first type of obstacle
> > probably, 
> >
> 
> Probably "creative" has the wrong meaning in your mind.
> 
> A coder is "creative" as a painter is: a painter knows exactly how to draw,
> for example, a man, but chooses to represent it in its own way because of
> reasons. In the same way, a coder knows exactly how to solve a problem, but
> sometimes chooses a different way because of well, whatever, engineering is
> the art of compromises.
> An experienced coder rarely get "stuck" somewhere, because he almost always
> has a sub-optimal solution, that almost always is well inside the constraints
> he has.
> 
> Or maybe you are talking about being "creative" in a broader way, that is,
> not while coding. In that case I have no idea, it's a completely different
> job that has nothing to do with coding.
> 
it is not the first option you say (the one where coder has always solution on mind) but it IS a part of the work of a programmer 

as i said you need to know what to code before you can start think how to code this.. i got no good examples maybe but often programs are based on some knowledge for example before codin advancedg graphics you _MUST_ invent the 
color and light theory, probably the same is in economy, mechanics, social media or what else, you must invent the thing what to code (some of those theories are already invented but some are not quite invented or you just dont know it)

I for example specifficaly got heavy problems with AI here - I just thinked always this is easy, as coding behaviour is technicaly banal,
verey easy - but it seem to show that the 'what' part here is present and im stopped
and blocked 

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#60186

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:52:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:34:33 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:15:23 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > 
> > Probably "creative" has the wrong meaning in your mind.
> > 
> > A coder is "creative" as a painter is: a painter knows exactly how to draw,
> > for example, a man, but chooses to represent it in its own way because of
> > reasons. In the same way, a coder knows exactly how to solve a problem, but
> > sometimes chooses a different way because of well, whatever, engineering is
> > the art of compromises.
> > An experienced coder rarely get "stuck" somewhere, because he almost always
> > has a sub-optimal solution, that almost always is well inside the 
> > constraints he has.
> > 
> > Or maybe you are talking about being "creative" in a broader way, that is,
> > not while coding. In that case I have no idea, it's a completely different
> > job that has nothing to do with coding.
> > 
> it is not the first option you say (the one where coder has always solution
> on mind) but it IS a part of the work of a programmer 
> 
> as i said you need to know what to code before you can start think how to
> code this.. i got no good examples maybe but often programs are based on some
> knowledge for example before codin advancedg graphics you _MUST_ invent the 
> color and light theory, probably the same is in economy, mechanics, social
> media or what else, you must invent the thing what to code (some of those
> theories are already invented but some are not quite invented or you just
> dont know it)
> 
> I for example specifficaly got heavy problems with AI here - I just thinked
> always this is easy, as coding behaviour is technicaly banal,
> verey easy - but it seem to show that the 'what' part here is present and im
> stopped and blocked
>

You don't know what to code? Seriously? :O

There are thousands of open source projects that lack manpower, I cannot
believe that you are not interested in not even one of them. For example,
you like games and spacecrafts, take a look at vega strike and the vega strike
team, and it's just one out of only God knows how many.

Also (maybe you don't want to get involved in FOSS projects, for any reason),
if I alone tell you just one third of the ideas I would like to write
but I don't have time to implement, you wouldn't finish in a life-time: and
the world is full of people like me; just ask your friends and they will
give you tons of ideas.

I really cannot believe it, I hope I didn't understand your post :|

Ciao!

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#60199

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 01:16:53 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:52:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:34:33 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > > On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:15:23 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > > 
> > > Probably "creative" has the wrong meaning in your mind.
> > > 
> > > A coder is "creative" as a painter is: a painter knows exactly how to draw,
> > > for example, a man, but chooses to represent it in its own way because of
> > > reasons. In the same way, a coder knows exactly how to solve a problem, but
> > > sometimes chooses a different way because of well, whatever, engineering is
> > > the art of compromises.
> > > An experienced coder rarely get "stuck" somewhere, because he almost always
> > > has a sub-optimal solution, that almost always is well inside the 
> > > constraints he has.
> > > 
> > > Or maybe you are talking about being "creative" in a broader way, that is,
> > > not while coding. In that case I have no idea, it's a completely different
> > > job that has nothing to do with coding.
> > > 
> > it is not the first option you say (the one where coder has always solution
> > on mind) but it IS a part of the work of a programmer 
> > 
> > as i said you need to know what to code before you can start think how to
> > code this.. i got no good examples maybe but often programs are based on some
> > knowledge for example before codin advancedg graphics you _MUST_ invent the 
> > color and light theory, probably the same is in economy, mechanics, social
> > media or what else, you must invent the thing what to code (some of those
> > theories are already invented but some are not quite invented or you just
> > dont know it)
> > 
> > I for example specifficaly got heavy problems with AI here - I just thinked
> > always this is easy, as coding behaviour is technicaly banal,
> > verey easy - but it seem to show that the 'what' part here is present and im
> > stopped and blocked
> >
> 
> You don't know what to code? Seriously? :O
> 
> There are thousands of open source projects that lack manpower, I cannot
> believe that you are not interested in not even one of them. For example,
> you like games and spacecrafts, take a look at vega strike and the vega strike
> team, and it's just one out of only God knows how many.
> 
> Also (maybe you don't want to get involved in FOSS projects, for any reason),
> if I alone tell you just one third of the ideas I would like to write
> but I don't have time to implement, you wouldn't finish in a life-time: and
> the world is full of people like me; just ask your friends and they will
> give you tons of ideas.
> 
> I really cannot believe it, I hope I didn't understand your post :|
> 
thats right you are right that you do not understand it - i wrote quite big amount of text on the thing you fully didnt comprehend at all 

by 'what' i mean some underlaying solution you
need to implement not general idea also not code implementation

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#60202

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 09:17:34 UTC+2 użytkownik fir napisał:
> W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 01:16:53 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > 
> thats right you are right that you do not understand it - i wrote quite big amount of text on the thing you fully didnt comprehend at all 
> 
> by 'what' i mean some underlaying solution you
> need to implement not general idea also not code implementation

PS 
beides this is only some sub-thought in this thread, This thread was intended to ask if others have such troubles that i have in my work 

-- i am sometimes suprised that sometimes it shows that others do not seem to share my difficulties, 
for example few years ago i got
a hard problems of being some kind overvorked,
I asked some people on forum if they are overvorked it showed that they do not share 
this experience - it was very surprising

(I resolved this problem of being overvorked 
by much bigger dose of resting but now the other obstacles did appear ;C [the ones i wrote on here])

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#60229

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 01:16:53 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:52:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:34:33 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > > On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:15:23 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > > 
> > > Probably "creative" has the wrong meaning in your mind.
> > > 
> > > A coder is "creative" as a painter is: a painter knows exactly how to draw,
> > > for example, a man, but chooses to represent it in its own way because of
> > > reasons. In the same way, a coder knows exactly how to solve a problem, but
> > > sometimes chooses a different way because of well, whatever, engineering is
> > > the art of compromises.
> > > An experienced coder rarely get "stuck" somewhere, because he almost always
> > > has a sub-optimal solution, that almost always is well inside the 
> > > constraints he has.
> > > 
> > > Or maybe you are talking about being "creative" in a broader way, that is,
> > > not while coding. In that case I have no idea, it's a completely different
> > > job that has nothing to do with coding.
> > > 
> > it is not the first option you say (the one where coder has always solution
> > on mind) but it IS a part of the work of a programmer 
> > 
> > as i said you need to know what to code before you can start think how to
> > code this.. i got no good examples maybe but often programs are based on some
> > knowledge for example before codin advancedg graphics you _MUST_ invent the 
> > color and light theory, probably the same is in economy, mechanics, social
> > media or what else, you must invent the thing what to code (some of those
> > theories are already invented but some are not quite invented or you just
> > dont know it)
> > 
> > I for example specifficaly got heavy problems with AI here - I just thinked
> > always this is easy, as coding behaviour is technicaly banal,
> > verey easy - but it seem to show that the 'what' part here is present and im
> > stopped and blocked
> >
> 
> You don't know what to code? Seriously? :O
> 
> There are thousands of open source projects that lack manpower, I cannot
> believe that you are not interested in not even one of them. For example,
> you like games and spacecrafts, take a look at vega strike and the vega strike
> team, and it's just one out of only God knows how many.
> 

may be interesting.. i never worked such way becouse i was just not tryin.. man time and energy is limited and i always felt even my ovn simple projests are much too much for me.. but tnx for the info of such vega strike team work.. have they some forum and to do list or what? could take a look on it a while

(i need realy some forum focused on some very concrete game mechanic ang graphics things, this usenet group is ok, but discussing language over and over is damn unproductive
for game maker, (general game dev forums are paradoxically not much better as only generalities are discussed there, too ) :<





> Also (maybe you don't want to get involved in FOSS projects, for any reason),
> if I alone tell you just one third of the ideas I would like to write
> but I don't have time to implement, you wouldn't finish in a life-time: and
> the world is full of people like me; just ask your friends and they will
> give you tons of ideas.
> 
> I really cannot believe it, I hope I didn't understand your post :|
> 
> Ciao!

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#60180

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:15:23 UTC+2 użytkownik fir napisał:
> W dniu czwartek, 16 kwietnia 2015 19:46:41 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 7:17:59 PM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > > (by sot i mean 'sligthtly off topic', as
> > > i said this is a bit more philosophical or meta
> > > but for c coders, and i do not consider such
> > > topics 100% offtopic here)
> > > 
> > > Question is simple in my coding work the worse think i met, and the worse
> > > problem i got is
> > > a thing i call obstacles - It is usually i
> > > can code something work at something and it is 
> > > okay progress is done but then come some obstacle
> > > and that is real problem
> > > 
> > > could maybe someone say what is or was such obstacle for him? was it possible
> > > to overcome or not? what to do in such cases? maybe some thoughts?
> > >
> > 
> > It sort of depends on the "obstacle" and if it "depends" on you or not: if, for
> > example, you are working on a project that runs on a network of servers and
> > the router dies there's nothing much to do, except for going home early.
> > 
> > If, instead, you get stuck on a problem that you cannot solve for lack of
> > experience, just be patient, solve it somehow, and study what you're lacking in
> > your spare time. This way you accumulate experience, so with time this kind of
> > situations will be less and less frequent.
> > 
> this sounds for me like about minor obstacles that could be resolved in few hours or few ten of hour etc - but the one i personally got are way harder and i REALLY dont know what to do when i am blocked by them -- it is not much about 'how' to code something but more like 'what and how' to code at all (it is more related maybe to creative side as im mainly doing (or trying to do) some gamedev (there are or at least i dont know just any tutorial how to do some bit complex things and I
> theoretocaly should invent it all by myself
> and hot any clue what really do and how) - but obstacles here are really hard

PS/add

I wonder if this is the cause of the problem
or there is something more.. this, i mean that
there are just no tutorials for some things 
and when you have no tutorial you have to invent it yourelf and this is really much harder (using tutorials is reletively easy
but if you habe no one it is quite other kind of quest)
seem quite possible that this is a reason,
i feel quite weak in such areas where i have no invented ways to turn into a code 9some things are easy and you dont need a tutorial but im aspeaking about those a bit harder..

this is at all unpleasant thing as some things are (at least for me) unpleasant to invent
(maybe i am not enough focused and amm expecting a thingh go easy when they really need to get much much more focus)



> - I wonder if others have the same kind of trouble
> 
> ( this 'what and how in creative way ' would be the first type of obstacle probably, 
> second kind of obstacle would be 'some things are well described etc, but to learn adm make this just take too much time - but this 2nd obstacle is probably at all easier than the first)
> 
> I wonder if other coders are also this way limited by obstacles as me, and what those obstacles are

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#60182

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:38:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> this, i mean that
> there are just no tutorials for some things 
> and when you have no tutorial you have to invent it yourelf and this is
> really much harder (using tutorials is reletively easy
> but if you habe no one it is quite other kind of quest)
> seem quite possible that this is a reason,
> i feel quite weak in such areas where i have no invented ways to turn into a
> code 9some things are easy and you dont need a tutorial but im aspeaking
> about those a bit harder..
> 

Don't follow any tutorial anymore: seriously, they just hurt your growth as
a programmer.
First study the basics, then read the code of other people you like (or of
the softwares you like, if you can), and experiment by yourself a lot: if you
have no clue it's fine, don't try to create, try to think about what you
know and what other more experienced people do and adapt everything to your
very specific situation.

This is not my idea: it's simply called "learning process" and it's the same
in any field, at any age at any level: study, observe, repeat.

Ciao!

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#60185

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:51:56 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:38:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > this, i mean that
> > there are just no tutorials for some things 
> > and when you have no tutorial you have to invent it yourelf and this is
> > really much harder (using tutorials is reletively easy
> > but if you habe no one it is quite other kind of quest)
> > seem quite possible that this is a reason,
> > i feel quite weak in such areas where i have no invented ways to turn into a
> > code 9some things are easy and you dont need a tutorial but im aspeaking
> > about those a bit harder..
> > 
> 
> Don't follow any tutorial anymore: seriously, they just hurt your growth as
> a programmer.
> First study the basics, then read the code of other people you like (or of
> the softwares you like, if you can), and experiment by yourself a lot: if you
> have no clue it's fine, don't try to create, try to think about what you
> know and what other more experienced people do and adapt everything to your
> very specific situation.
> 
> This is not my idea: it's simply called "learning process" and it's the same
> in any field, at any age at any level: study, observe, repeat.
> 
do not following the tutorials is probably to hard for me, i am mostly if not only following tutorials, this is easy and good, it doeasnt
mean that i dont know what im doing, this just spares me a harder thinking ;<

the problem is i sometimes need to run something a bit more complex and i got no
tutorial (and also no source of others etc 
as those are my own ideas (one is for example 
coding a very good (almost biologically) looking AI for enemy spaceship in space etc,
could also find other cases of this type of problems)

Experimenting much and fucusing myself is
an option though still it all stays an heavy obstacle as "experiment and focus " are easy to say but much harder to do sometimes

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#60233

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 04:07:34PM -0700, fir wrote:
> W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:51:56 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:38:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > > this, i mean that
> > > there are just no tutorials for some things 
> > > and when you have no tutorial you have to invent it yourelf and this is
> > > really much harder (using tutorials is reletively easy
> > > but if you habe no one it is quite other kind of quest)
> > > seem quite possible that this is a reason,
> > > i feel quite weak in such areas where i have no invented ways to turn into a
> > > code 9some things are easy and you dont need a tutorial but im aspeaking
> > > about those a bit harder..
> > > 
> > 
> > Don't follow any tutorial anymore: seriously, they just hurt your growth as
> > a programmer.
> > First study the basics, then read the code of other people you like (or of
> > the softwares you like, if you can), and experiment by yourself a lot: if you
> > have no clue it's fine, don't try to create, try to think about what you
> > know and what other more experienced people do and adapt everything to your
> > very specific situation.
> > 
> > This is not my idea: it's simply called "learning process" and it's the same
> > in any field, at any age at any level: study, observe, repeat.
> > 
> do not following the tutorials is probably to hard for me, i am mostly if not only following tutorials, this is easy and good, it doeasnt
> mean that i dont know what im doing, this just spares me a harder thinking ;<
> 
> the problem is i sometimes need to run something a bit more complex and i got no
> tutorial (and also no source of others etc 
> as those are my own ideas (one is for example 
> coding a very good (almost biologically) looking AI for enemy spaceship in space etc,
> could also find other cases of this type of problems)
> 
> Experimenting much and fucusing myself is
> an option though still it all stays an heavy obstacle as "experiment and focus " are easy to say but much harder to do sometimes

These days I begin by designing a set of data structures that embody
the characteristics of the thing or process that I wish to model or
work with.  Then I might start coding and through an iterative process
the data structures are refined as required to satisfy any
requirements that arise as the code takes form.  I imagine when I am a
better programmer the process will quicken.

The difficulty with computer programming is often identifying all of
the details that are pertinent to the problem you are trying to solve.
There are a lot of language syntax tutorials but there does not seem to
be much in the way of teaching the algorithm design process.  (I will
have to remember to revisit this topic the next time I am in a good
university library.  The local public library does not much concern
itself with computer programming literature.)

At this time I find I am reinventing a lot of wheels because the
problem that I wish to solve requires a close integration of many
parts and there do not seem to be existing components of the right
mix.  It is frustrating.



Regards,

Steve Thompson

-- 
"If I had a nickel for every time some idiot called me about a
computer problem that turned out to be user error, I would be able to
retire and spend the rest of my days cultivating clues in my backyard
hillside garden."  -- MysteryDog in 24hoursupport.helpdesk.

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#60261

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 16:35:48 UTC+2 użytkownik Steve Thompson napisał:
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 04:07:34PM -0700, fir wrote:
> > W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 00:51:56 UTC+2 użytkownik fma...@gmail.com napisał:
> > > On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 12:38:22 AM UTC+2, fir wrote:
> > > > this, i mean that
> > > > there are just no tutorials for some things 
> > > > and when you have no tutorial you have to invent it yourelf and this is
> > > > really much harder (using tutorials is reletively easy
> > > > but if you habe no one it is quite other kind of quest)
> > > > seem quite possible that this is a reason,
> > > > i feel quite weak in such areas where i have no invented ways to turn into a
> > > > code 9some things are easy and you dont need a tutorial but im aspeaking
> > > > about those a bit harder..
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Don't follow any tutorial anymore: seriously, they just hurt your growth as
> > > a programmer.
> > > First study the basics, then read the code of other people you like (or of
> > > the softwares you like, if you can), and experiment by yourself a lot: if you
> > > have no clue it's fine, don't try to create, try to think about what you
> > > know and what other more experienced people do and adapt everything to your
> > > very specific situation.
> > > 
> > > This is not my idea: it's simply called "learning process" and it's the same
> > > in any field, at any age at any level: study, observe, repeat.
> > > 
> > do not following the tutorials is probably to hard for me, i am mostly if not only following tutorials, this is easy and good, it doeasnt
> > mean that i dont know what im doing, this just spares me a harder thinking ;<
> > 
> > the problem is i sometimes need to run something a bit more complex and i got no
> > tutorial (and also no source of others etc 
> > as those are my own ideas (one is for example 
> > coding a very good (almost biologically) looking AI for enemy spaceship in space etc,
> > could also find other cases of this type of problems)
> > 
> > Experimenting much and fucusing myself is
> > an option though still it all stays an heavy obstacle as "experiment and focus " are easy to say but much harder to do sometimes
> 
> These days I begin by designing a set of data structures that embody
> the characteristics of the thing or process that I wish to model or
> work with.  Then I might start coding and through an iterative process
> the data structures are refined as required to satisfy any
> requirements that arise as the code takes form.  I imagine when I am a
> better programmer the process will quicken.
> 
> The difficulty with computer programming is often identifying all of
> the details that are pertinent to the problem you are trying to solve.
> There are a lot of language syntax tutorials but there does not seem to
> be much in the way of teaching the algorithm design process.  (I will
> have to remember to revisit this topic the next time I am in a good
> university library.  The local public library does not much concern
> itself with computer programming literature.)
> 
> At this time I find I am reinventing a lot of wheels because the
> problem that I wish to solve requires a close integration of many
> parts and there do not seem to be existing components of the right
> mix.  It is frustrating.
> 
> 

I got different set of problems personally
(i didnt quite understood thise above but i 
see you got different set of problems)

As i said (but my repeat (yo be eventually better understood)) if i know what to code the 
way how to code it is (relatiovely)
easy - but the most x-problematic is what to code -if you want obtain something this is like 
1) general not 100% exact vision what to code
2) exact consciousnes about what to code (to obtain high quality result)
3) code design and coding etc

1 & 3 are not so problematic, but tehe 2 for me is in general mighty problematic, 
you may take some examples, for example 'chess program', 'strategy game', 'music program' etc etc - general (even good) idea is not so hard, implementation if you just know what to just code is also not so damn hard (though all this debugging and all this time etc is painfull)
[at least it seem for me it is not so hard]
- but the very exact bridge between the general idea and the 'pre-code' state is some hell to do - i dont know how to overcome (pass thru) this

it may seem simple but it is not for example even if you make simple game you can code something but usually teh result is tjat it looks awfull, plays awfull and is not finished
- you dont need to code 'something' you need to code 'exact thing' that will be looking good and will play/work good - the process of
finding or resolving this is damn obstacle
(at least for me)

general solution seem to be 'experiment much'
or 'think much' but as i said it is easy to 
say in reality when i am put against such obstacle i came in depression and i lose my energy/motivation it all just need a hell of
determination or god knows what










> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steve Thompson
> 
> -- 
> "If I had a nickel for every time some idiot called me about a
> computer problem that turned out to be user error, I would be able to
> retire and spend the rest of my days cultivating clues in my backyard
> hillside garden."  -- MysteryDog in 24hoursupport.helpdesk.

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#60266

On 4/17/15 2:53 PM, fir wrote:

> it may seem simple but it is not for example even if you make simple
> game you can code something but usually teh result is tjat it looks
> awfull, plays awfull and is not finished - you dont need to code
> 'something' you need to code 'exact thing' that will be looking good
> and will play/work good - the process of finding or resolving this is
> damn obstacle (at least for me)
>
> general solution seem to be 'experiment much' or 'think much' but as
> i said it is easy to say in reality when i am put against such
> obstacle i came in depression and i lose my energy/motivation it all
> just need a hell of determination or god knows what

I think the question I think you're asking doesn't have a satisfying
answer, so I'll make a best effort at an unsatisfying answer...

It is /necessary/ to write the best code you can manage to get a job 
done. In the beginning it will be beautiful only by accident, and if 
beauty (whatever you conceive that to be) is important, then you will 
need to re-write working ugly code as many times as necessary until it 
seems beautiful to you. You will be able to measure your progress by the 
number of times you need to rewrite your programs before they make you 
smile. Eventually, that number will become small (for some definition of 
'small') and sometimes you'll even produce something beautiful on the 
first try.

You can be kind to yourself by partitioning work into relatively small 
modules that can be individually 'beautified' and debugged. This will 
help more than almost anything else to help avoid the depression and 
energy loss you spoke of - and this approach delivers the flow of 
success and feeling of accomplishment that makes for better sleep at night.

-- 
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/Solar

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#60276

W dniu piątek, 17 kwietnia 2015 22:49:55 UTC+2 użytkownik Morris Dovey napisał:
> On 4/17/15 2:53 PM, fir wrote:
> 
> > it may seem simple but it is not for example even if you make simple
> > game you can code something but usually teh result is tjat it looks
> > awfull, plays awfull and is not finished - you dont need to code
> > 'something' you need to code 'exact thing' that will be looking good
> > and will play/work good - the process of finding or resolving this is
> > damn obstacle (at least for me)
> >
> > general solution seem to be 'experiment much' or 'think much' but as
> > i said it is easy to say in reality when i am put against such
> > obstacle i came in depression and i lose my energy/motivation it all
> > just need a hell of determination or god knows what
> 
> I think the question I think you're asking doesn't have a satisfying
> answer, so I'll make a best effort at an unsatisfying answer...
> 

i think it has but i dont know it ;m
In general i wrote about this so heavy 
becouse it is real 'bottleneck' in my work


> It is /necessary/ to write the best code you can manage to get a job 
> done. In the beginning it will be beautiful only by accident, and if 
> beauty (whatever you conceive that to be) is important, then you will 
> need to re-write working ugly code as many times as necessary until it 
> seems beautiful to you. You will be able to measure your progress by the 
> number of times you need to rewrite your programs before they make you 
> smile. Eventually, that number will become small (for some definition of 
> 'small') and sometimes you'll even produce something beautiful on the 
> first try.
> 

I wrote quite opposite thing - i think that
code is less important thing in coding, the real trouble lays outside of the code and is 
about the subject that is coded.. 


> You can be kind to yourself by partitioning work into relatively small 
> modules that can be individually 'beautified' and debugged. This will 
> help more than almost anything else to help avoid the depression and 
> energy loss you spoke of - and this approach delivers the flow of 
> success and feeling of accomplishment that makes for better sleep at night.
> 
> -- 
> Morris Dovey
> http://www.iedu.com/Solar

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#60279

W dniu sobota, 18 kwietnia 2015 01:13:01 UTC+2 użytkownik fir napisał:
> 
> I wrote quite opposite thing - i think that
> code is less important thing in coding, the real trouble lays outside of the code and is 
> about the subject that is coded.. 
> 
ps, probably this is a common mistake of most people (with me too), as i think on it now
(though i dont see it to much clearly, but those are some thoughts ), people focus to much on coding.. this is probably becouse coding is nice .. study on the ryginal subject of the program may be (and probably is) much more unpleasant - still i dont know what to do with that

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#60281

On 4/17/15 6:24 PM, fir wrote:
> W dniu sobota, 18 kwietnia 2015 01:13:01 UTC+2 użytkownik fir
> napisał:
>>
>> I wrote quite opposite thing - i think that code is less important
>> thing in coding, the real trouble lays outside of the code and is
>> about the subject that is coded..
>>
> ps, probably this is a common mistake of most people (with me too),
> as i think on it now (though i dont see it to much clearly, but those
> are some thoughts ), people focus to much on coding.. this is
> probably becouse coding is nice .. study on the ryginal subject of
> the program may be (and probably is) much more unpleasant - still i
> dont know what to do with that

I’ll agree that it’s important to understand the problem - but I think 
you’re insufficiently aware that the choice of solution strategies can 
be a major determinant of success or failure. Some solution strategies 
are very expensive to implement, while others are inexpensive.

It’s at least very difficult to choose an advantageous strategy without 
expertise in coding - and, in general, the stronger that expertise the 
better the chances for success.

-- 
Morris Dovey
http://www.iedu.com/Solar

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#60282

W dniu sobota, 18 kwietnia 2015 01:13:01 UTC+2 użytkownik fir napisał:
> 
> I wrote quite opposite thing - i think that
> code is less important thing in coding, the real trouble lays outside of the code and is 
> about the subject that is coded.. 
> 

mat say in the words: this is becouse if you code you do not just produce pure code (only code), you produce "something" in code

if code is brilliant but something is not to much brilliant is quite opposite to the situation when code is not much brilliant but the something in this code is real good 

so making program is as i said two-parts activity, making code and making something,
imo they probably are not even much related,
and yet as i say this making something part has its ovn heavy difficulties often

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#60289

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 8:53:59 PM UTC+1, fir wrote:
> 
> As i said (but my repeat (yo be eventually better understood)) if i
> know what to code the way how to code it is (relatiovely)
> easy - but the most x-problematic is what to code -if you want obtain
> something this is like 
> 1) general not 100% exact vision what to code
> 2) exact consciousnes about what to code (to obtain high quality result)
> 3) code design and coding etc
> 
> 1 & 3 are not so problematic, but tehe 2 for me is in general mighty 
> problematic, 
> you may take some examples, for example 'chess program', 'strategy game',
> 'music program' etc etc - general (even good) idea is not so hard, 
>
Most programs are a clothing of a core algorithm or idea in lots of
UI code. So a chess program is an alpha beta search, a music player
is a fast frequency transform, a strategy game is usually a resource
allocation problem.
So you need to know a few things before you start.
1) What's the core algorithm behind the program I propose to write?
2) Do I have the ability to get that algorithm working?
3) How shall I present the algorithm to the user?
4) Do I have the resources to build an adequate user interface? Or in
the case of a game, adequate graphics.
5) What will a user seek, what would motivate him to use my program?
6) How shall I distribute the program?

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