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Groups > comp.lang.c > #161337 > unrolled thread
| Started by | James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-06-09 11:37 +0100 |
| Last post | 2021-07-05 12:15 -0500 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 54 — 32 participants |
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comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2021-06-09 11:37 +0100
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2021-06-09 11:09 -0500
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 11:55 +0100
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 04:23 -0700
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 16:22 +0100
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 08:31 -0500
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 16:26 +0100
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2021-07-05 12:52 -0400
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 12:55 -0700
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 18:39 +0200
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 11:50 -0500
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups https://www.usenetarchives.com/ olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 11:56 -0500
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 14:13 -0700
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 15:32 -0700
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-05 15:34 -0700
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-07-06 08:22 +0200
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-07-06 15:11 -0400
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2021-07-06 15:32 -0400
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-06 19:56 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2021-07-13 04:37 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-13 16:45 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-13 17:44 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net - 2021-07-14 07:17 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-14 15:07 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird MrSpud_6q@rm5.biz - 2021-07-14 16:03 +0000
Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2021-07-14 19:08 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-07-14 21:11 +0200
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-07-14 20:02 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_0zkkxn6jj@uncf5cotva75ujdt.gov - 2021-07-15 08:27 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-15 14:20 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_6wa4@1h0c.net - 2021-07-15 14:34 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-07-15 14:59 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-15 08:29 -0700
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_8nnwe@ko9uz7rn4n552n6rutmfe.eu - 2021-07-16 09:33 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-07-16 15:33 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r@atc_rakxp6.info - 2021-07-17 15:04 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-07-17 16:30 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_2fxg@cligh74ct.info - 2021-07-19 07:50 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 00:53 -0700
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_X19y3su@nl5uzoqa76.info - 2021-07-19 08:16 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-07-19 15:20 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups MrSpud_K_o53g2z@wl4yrs_t67fb214q.gov - 2021-07-19 15:31 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Manfred <invalid@add.invalid> - 2021-07-18 00:29 +0200
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) Kaz Kylheku <563-365-8930@kylheku.com> - 2021-07-14 20:11 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2021-07-14 21:03 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2021-07-16 12:55 +0200
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-07-14 20:32 +0000
Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) MrSpud_Cyt@em8kceu_4l_721dw4ed0wc.biz - 2021-07-15 08:24 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2021-07-16 19:59 +0300
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2021-07-17 09:45 -0400
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird steve <steve@loft.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> - 2021-07-17 22:11 -0400
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-07-06 16:25 -0400
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> - 2021-07-05 17:00 +0000
Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-05 12:15 -0500
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| From | Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-13 16:45 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) |
| Message-ID | <sckg30$18q6$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161893 |
On 13/07/2021 05:37, Kenny McCormack wrote: > But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the > early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the > same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else) > did in the early 90s. Surely, all news client must have a facility to save messages somewhere when the user sends something. Even in the 90s when Netscape and Outlook Express were two GUI news clients had a facility to save messages in sent folder. Now in the 21st century, there is even a better way to save all your sent messages. The method I use is to initially save the messages in the local folders and on a weekly basis, I drag the messages from sent folder to my Yahoo account. Yahoo gives you 1TB of disk space free of charge so make use of it. If they decide to close their free service then they will give you at least 30 days notice so you'll need to find other means of saving your messages. However, if you are talking of very old messages and your copies are lost then there is no way to get them back. In any case what is the point of reading what happened in 1990. The technology have changed quite a lot. I am currently using Mozilla Thunderbird so it has better features and easy to master. there is a newsgroup for Thunderbird here: <news://news.aioe.org/alt.comp.software.thunderbird>. Or you could search for: "alt.comp.software.thunderbird" in your news client. Your service provider must have this newsgroup. You can't rely on Google Groups because they are likely to be shut down because Google is making a loss on them. There are no ads on that news portal so why should they continue running it. Google is a business so bottom line comes before anything else.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-13 17:44 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird and eternal-september) |
| Message-ID | <jikHI.22906$VU3.14451@fx46.iad> |
| In reply to | #161895 |
Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> writes: >On 13/07/2021 05:37, Kenny McCormack wrote: >> But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the >> early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the >> same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else) >> did in the early 90s. > >Surely, all news client must have a facility to save messages somewhere >when the user sends something. Nope. See headers. Mine will save cancelled posts to ~/dead.letter however.
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| From | MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-14 07:17 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird |
| Message-ID | <scm31o$hbd$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161895 |
On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000 Real Troll <real.troll@trolls.com> wrote: >On 13/07/2021 05:37, Kenny McCormack wrote: >> But, remember, the poster in question says he's been doing this since the >> early 90s, and, also, at least some of us are still using basically the >> same technology today to read and post to Usenet as we (and everyone else) >> did in the early 90s. > >Surely, all news client must have a facility to save messages somewhere >when the user sends something. Even in the 90s when Netscape and Outlook >Express were two GUI news clients had a facility to save messages in >sent folder. > >Now in the 21st century, there is even a better way to save all your >sent messages. The method I use is to initially save the messages in the >local folders and on a weekly basis, I drag the messages from sent >folder to my Yahoo account. Yahoo gives you 1TB of disk space free of >charge so make use of it. If they decide to close their free service >then they will give you at least 30 days notice so you'll need to find >other means of saving your messages. Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it does the job and I can make it do whatever I want. >You can't rely on Google Groups because they are likely to be shut down >because Google is making a loss on them. There are no ads on that news >portal so why should they continue running it. Google is a business so >bottom line comes before anything else. Lets hope they sell/give it away first instead of just binning the entire Dejanews archive. However if you want a free news server use aioe.org. Obviously being an apparent hobby server it might vanish too suddenly but I've been using it for at least 10 years now and its still going strong.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-14 15:07 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird |
| Message-ID | <E4DHI.1494$wG6.438@fx18.iad> |
| In reply to | #161898 |
MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes: >On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000 >Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none >of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol >after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it >does the job and I can make it do whatever I want. > What makes you think we haven't?
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| From | MrSpud_6q@rm5.biz |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-14 16:03 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird |
| Message-ID | <scn1sn$1bjk$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161899 |
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 15:07:16 GMT scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes: >>On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000 > >>Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none >>of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol >>after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it >>does the job and I can make it do whatever I want. >> > >What makes you think we haven't? Maybe some people have, but I get the impression most haven't.
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| From | gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-14 19:08 +0000 |
| Subject | Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) |
| Message-ID | <scncn6$3gief$2@news.xmission.com> |
| In reply to | #161900 |
In article <scn1sn$1bjk$1@gioia.aioe.org>, <MrSpud_6q@rm5.biz> wrote: >On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 15:07:16 GMT >scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >>MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes: >>>On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000 >> >>>Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none >>>of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol >>>after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it >>>does the job and I can make it do whatever I want. >>> >> >>What makes you think we haven't? > >Maybe some people have, but I get the impression most haven't. > There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc) trn (and similar, such as "tin") does everything you need, so why not use it? You'd spend a lot of time, just to get up to the level of functionality of trn. Why go through the hassle? -- Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. - Napoleon Bonaparte -
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| From | Manfred <noname@add.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-14 21:11 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) |
| Message-ID | <scnctn$isd$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161901 |
On 7/14/2021 9:08 PM, Kenny McCormack wrote: > In article <scn1sn$1bjk$1@gioia.aioe.org>, <MrSpud_6q@rm5.biz> wrote: >> On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 15:07:16 GMT >> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >>> MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes: >>>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000 >>> >>>> Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none >>>> of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol >>>> after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it >>>> does the job and I can make it do whatever I want. >>>> >>> >>> What makes you think we haven't? >> >> Maybe some people have, but I get the impression most haven't. >> > > There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an > idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc) > > trn (and similar, such as "tin") does everything you need, so why not use > it? You'd spend a lot of time, just to get up to the level of > functionality of trn. Why go through the hassle? > Don't forget how cool is the wheel :)
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| From | Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-14 20:02 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups Switch to free (Thunderbird) |
| Message-ID | <scnfs0$qth$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #161901 |
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 19:08:22 +0000, Kenny McCormack wrote: > In article <scn1sn$1bjk$1@gioia.aioe.org>, <MrSpud_6q@rm5.biz> wrote: >>On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 15:07:16 GMT >>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >>>MrSpud_0wmge0me@1luxp5mj4a5obrr0ws.net writes: >>>>On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:45:00 +0000 >>> >>>>Given how many apparent geniuses subscribe to comp.lang.c++ I'm amazed none >>>>of them have written their own newsreader. NNTP is quite a simple protocol >>>>after all. I did and I'm using it now. Ok, its command line, not GUI but it >>>>does the job and I can make it do whatever I want. >>>> >>> >>>What makes you think we haven't? >> >>Maybe some people have, but I get the impression most haven't. >> > > There's no need to. Really, talk about wheel re-invention. Hey, here's an > idea, why not write a new OS? Who needs Linux? Who need z/OS? (etc) > > trn (and similar, such as "tin") does everything you need, so why not use > it? You'd spend a lot of time, just to get up to the level of > functionality of trn. Why go through the hassle? I can think of many possible reasons to (re)create an existing tool: - the existing tools do not provide the functionality you require, or - the existing tools do not provide the usability you require, or - you wish to incorporate the tool's functionality into another tool, or - the tool is unavailable on your platform, or - you wish to learn how to write the tool, or - you wish to attempt to improve the existing tools FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib calls, not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want it to work. What's /your/ excuse, Kenny? -- Lew Pitcher "In Skills, We Trust"
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| From | MrSpud_0zkkxn6jj@uncf5cotva75ujdt.gov |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 08:27 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scorht$3oe$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161903 |
On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:02:08 -0000 (UTC) Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib >calls, >not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to >learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want > >it to work. Good luck with that (genuinely, I'm not being sarcastic). I wrote one about 20 years ago and it was a fun project to do but the problem was that even the venerable O'Reilly XLib manuals didn't provide all the information required as they're more geared towards developing user applications. In the end I had to look through other code to see how stuff was done but even then some things I never got working properly.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 14:20 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <evXHI.46029$Vv6.21841@fx45.iad> |
| In reply to | #161908 |
MrSpud_0zkkxn6jj@uncf5cotva75ujdt.gov writes: >On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:02:08 -0000 (UTC) >Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib >>calls, >>not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to >>learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want >> >>it to work. > >Good luck with that (genuinely, I'm not being sarcastic). I wrote one about >20 years ago and it was a fun project to do but the problem was that even >the venerable O'Reilly XLib manuals didn't provide all the information >required as they're more geared towards developing user applications. In the >end I had to look through other code to see how stuff was done but even then >some things I never got working properly. > Hm.. All the X11Rx code is open source; it's easy enough to use the source of libX11, libXt, and libXaw as a reference.
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| From | MrSpud_6wa4@1h0c.net |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 14:34 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scph2d$1jii$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161914 |
On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:20:58 GMT scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >MrSpud_0zkkxn6jj@uncf5cotva75ujdt.gov writes: >>On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:02:08 -0000 (UTC) >>Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>>FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib >>>calls, >>>not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish >to >>>learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ >want >>> >>>it to work. >> >>Good luck with that (genuinely, I'm not being sarcastic). I wrote one about >>20 years ago and it was a fun project to do but the problem was that even >>the venerable O'Reilly XLib manuals didn't provide all the information >>required as they're more geared towards developing user applications. In the >>end I had to look through other code to see how stuff was done but even then >>some things I never got working properly. >> > >Hm.. All the X11Rx code is open source; it's easy enough to use the >source of libX11, libXt, and libXaw as a reference. The source of another window manager would be a lot more useful IMO as looking at the source of the above won't show you how to use the required APIs without doing some reverse engineering nor will it show you what to use when.
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| From | Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 14:59 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scpifs$9gm$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #161908 |
On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:27:41 +0000, MrSpud_0zkkxn6jj wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:02:08 -0000 (UTC) > Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib >>calls, >>not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to >>learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want >> >>it to work. > > Good luck with that (genuinely, I'm not being sarcastic). I wrote one about > 20 years ago and it was a fun project to do but the problem was that even > the venerable O'Reilly XLib manuals didn't provide all the information > required as they're more geared towards developing user applications. In the > end I had to look through other code to see how stuff was done but even then > some things I never got working properly. Thanks for the best wishes. Yah, I'm about 50 pages into the Xlib manual, and have completed (and played with) the basicwin example. And then, I left the manual alone, except for the reference information. I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I need a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting together, from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work. I have a rudimentary edit widget, and a toggleswitch widget, and a way of abstracting the event loop into widget/window event handlers, all cobbled together over the last couple of weeks. I intend to build enough of a framework to familiarize myself with the practice and pitfalls of Xlib, before I move on to other toolkits. The project isn't really about building a DM; it's about learning Xlib. If I get a usable DM from it, then "bonus", otherwise I will still have learned something. -- Lew Pitcher "In Skills, We Trust"
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| From | Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-15 08:29 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <7cefec9a-9b13-4bbf-b30d-f7d8415aee88n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #161916 |
On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 15:59:21 UTC+1, Lew Pitcher wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 08:27:41 +0000, MrSpud_0zkkxn6jj wrote: > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 2021 20:02:08 -0000 (UTC) > > Lew Pitcher <lew.p...@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: > >>FWIW, I'm attempting to write an X11 Display Manager using low-level Xlib > >>calls, > >>not because there are no X11 Display Managers available, but because I wish to > >>learn about X11, and I would like a Display Manager that works the way /I/ want > >> > >>it to work. > > > > Good luck with that (genuinely, I'm not being sarcastic). I wrote one about > > 20 years ago and it was a fun project to do but the problem was that even > > the venerable O'Reilly XLib manuals didn't provide all the information > > required as they're more geared towards developing user applications. In the > > end I had to look through other code to see how stuff was done but even then > > some things I never got working properly. > Thanks for the best wishes. > > Yah, I'm about 50 pages into the Xlib manual, and have completed (and played with) > the basicwin example. And then, I left the manual alone, except for the reference > information. > > I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I need > a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting together, > from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work. > > I have a rudimentary edit widget, and a toggleswitch widget, and a way of abstracting > the event loop into widget/window event handlers, all cobbled together over the last > couple of weeks. I intend to build enough of a framework to familiarize myself with > the practice and pitfalls of Xlib, before I move on to other toolkits. The project > isn't really about building a DM; it's about learning Xlib. If I get a usable DM > from it, then "bonus", otherwise I will still have learned something. > I built Baby X, oriignally, as the name suggests, as a higher-level layer of abstraction over Xlib. I then ported it to Windows so Baby X programs can run under either Linux (any maybe other Unices) and Windows. A medium-level GUI toolkit needs entities such as buttons, menus, list boxes, check boxes, image display windows, radio buttons, scrolling support, and so on. These aren't all that difficult to program, though it's harder to get them right.
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| From | MrSpud_8nnwe@ko9uz7rn4n552n6rutmfe.eu |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 09:33 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scrjon$bh5$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161916 |
On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC) Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I >need >a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting >together, >from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work. It depends how much you want your WM to do. I did it in pure Xlib and implemented button and menu widgets (thats all thats really needed) from scratch which frankly isn't too hard. But sure, if you want a WM thats actually useful you'll need a proper toolkit.
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| From | Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-16 15:33 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scs8s3$29j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #161928 |
On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:33:11 +0000, MrSpud_8nnwe wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC) > Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I >>need >>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting >>together, >>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work. > > It depends how much you want your WM to do. Sorry, but I must make a correction here: I have no interest (at this time) in writing a Window Manager (WM) client for X11. The O'Reilly X11 Xlib book discusses WMs in detail, and includes the code for a rudementary WM implemented in Xlib. My interest lies elsewhere: specifically, in writing a Display Manager (DM) client for X11 in Xlib. A DM provides "a graphical login manager which starts a login session on an X server from the same or another computer." For this, I can find no basic example, nor any reasonably complete and simple "howto", so it gives me a reasonable challenge to learn X11 Xlib programming with. > I did it in pure Xlib and > implemented button and menu widgets (thats all thats really needed) from scratch > which frankly isn't too hard. But sure, if you want a WM thats actually useful > you'll need a proper toolkit. True. And, as my skills grow, I will move up to X11 toolkits and other X11 clients. I note, however, that most present-day toolkits present bindings in C++, and not C, thus ruling them out as far as my development projects are concerned. This leaves a very limited list of toolkits, with no middle ground. I could either code for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall we say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C bindings, and have an over-architected UI. ISTM that we've lost the middle ground, as far as C bindings are concerned. -- Lew Pitcher "In Skills, We Trust"
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| From | MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r@atc_rakxp6.info |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-17 15:04 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scurhg$11n6$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161935 |
On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:33:23 -0000 (UTC) Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:33:11 +0000, MrSpud_8nnwe wrote: > >> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC) >> Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I >>>need >>>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting >>>together, >>>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work. >> >> It depends how much you want your WM to do. > >Sorry, but I must make a correction here: I have no interest (at this time) >in writing a Window Manager (WM) client for X11. The O'Reilly X11 Xlib book >discusses WMs in detail, and includes the code for a rudementary WM implemented > >in Xlib. > >My interest lies elsewhere: specifically, in writing a Display Manager (DM) >client for X11 in Xlib. A DM provides "a graphical login manager which starts >a login session on an X server from the same or another computer." For this, >I can find no basic example, nor any reasonably complete and simple "howto", >so it gives me a reasonable challenge to learn X11 Xlib programming with. I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok simply exec's the required WM or enviroment. >for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall >we >say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C >bindings, Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on modern systems.
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| From | Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-17 16:30 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <scv0ij$51k$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #161947 |
On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:04:16 +0000, MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:33:23 -0000 (UTC) > Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 09:33:11 +0000, MrSpud_8nnwe wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 15 Jul 2021 14:59:08 -0000 (UTC) >>> Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>>>I quickly found that Xlib alone wasn't conducive to effective programming; I >>>>need >>>>a widget set or toolkit. But, I haven't abandoned Xlib; I'm simply putting >>>>together, >>>>from scratch, the sort of widgets I need to make things work. >>> >>> It depends how much you want your WM to do. >> >>Sorry, but I must make a correction here: I have no interest (at this time) >>in writing a Window Manager (WM) client for X11. The O'Reilly X11 Xlib book >>discusses WMs in detail, and includes the code for a rudementary WM implemented >> >>in Xlib. >> >>My interest lies elsewhere: specifically, in writing a Display Manager (DM) >>client for X11 in Xlib. A DM provides "a graphical login manager which starts >>a login session on an X server from the same or another computer." For this, >>I can find no basic example, nor any reasonably complete and simple "howto", >>so it gives me a reasonable challenge to learn X11 Xlib programming with. > > I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that > accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok simply > exec's the required WM or enviroment. Not really. To satisfy a purely local login, you need a minimum of two input edit fields: a Username that echoes typed characters and a password that doesn't. If you add XDMCP into the mix (which I intend to do), you need an additional field that allows you to pick the host to connect to from a list of eligible hostnames. These three fields may require just one window, but more likely require more. In my experimentation, I have 7 windows just to handle this (a window for the Hostname, a window for the ScrollUp button, a window for the ScrollDown button, a window to frame the ScrollUp/Hostname/ScrollDown set, a window for the Username, a window for the Password, and a window to frame the whole set). Add to this a window for a localtime clock, a window for a terminal identification, and a window for a DM identifier, and all the miscellaneous windows needed to frame these presentation windows, and you have quite a number of windows to manage. Then, of course, there's the actual activities that the windows themselves present. I have a clock, so I must format and present the time and date. I have two text inputs, so I must write text editing code. I have a scrollable selection window, so I must write logic to update the selection, and to handle the ScrollUp and ScrollDown buttons. And, then there's other, non-window logic, such as the logic to start the X server (if necessary), the logic to validate usernames and passwords (both locally and remotely), and the logic to start the user's WM of choice. All in all, this project will teach me a great deal about writing X11 Xlib application code, and about X11 in general. And that's the primary goal. >>for one of the heritage toolkits (Athena, Motif, etc.) and have a very, shall >>we >>say, "antique" UI, or for one of the few modern toolkits that offer C >>bindings, > > Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on > modern systems. Pish, tush. I have, at my fingertips, the Athena widget set (both Xaw and Xaw3d), and Motif, supplied as part of the Slackware Linux distribution I work in. I also have GTK+, GTK+2, and GTK+3. Also QT and FLTK, should I want to work in C++. -- Lew Pitcher "In Skills, We Trust"
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| From | MrSpud_2fxg@cligh74ct.info |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-19 07:50 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <sd3asq$1dpk$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161948 |
On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:30:12 -0000 (UTC) Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:04:16 +0000, MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r wrote: >> I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that >> accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok simply >> exec's the required WM or enviroment. > >Not really. To satisfy a purely local login, you need a minimum of two input >edit fields: a Username that echoes typed characters and a password that >doesn't. >If you add XDMCP into the mix (which I intend to do), you need an additional >field that allows you to pick the host to connect to from a list of eligible >hostnames. These three fields may require just one window, but more likely >require more. In my experimentation, I have 7 windows just to handle this >(a window for the Hostname, a window for the ScrollUp button, a window for >the ScrollDown button, a window to frame the ScrollUp/Hostname/ScrollDown >set, a window for the Username, a window for the Password, and a window to >frame the whole set). > >Add to this a window for a localtime clock, a window for a terminal >identification, >and a window for a DM identifier, and all the miscellaneous windows >needed to frame these presentation windows, and you have quite a number >of windows to manage. > >Then, of course, there's the actual activities that the windows themselves >present. I have a clock, so I must format and present the time and date. >I have two text inputs, so I must write text editing code. I have a scrollable >selection window, so I must write logic to update the selection, and to handle >the ScrollUp and ScrollDown buttons. You can obviously add as many bells and whistles as you like, but ultimately all you need for a basic login system is username and password - 1 window, 2 textboxes. For the other stuff you don't need a drop down, you could just have them pre-listed which can then be clicked on, much simpler. >And, then there's other, non-window logic, such as the logic to start the X >server (if necessary), the logic to validate usernames and passwords (both >locally and remotely), and the logic to start the user's WM of choice. Basic *nix fork-exec stuff. >> Personally I'd go for Motif if you can still find libraries that'll work on >> modern systems. > >Pish, tush. > >I have, at my fingertips, the Athena widget set (both Xaw and Xaw3d), and >Motif, >supplied as part of the Slackware Linux distribution I work in. I also have I do have a soft spot for slackware - mainly the lack of the god awful systemd - but its hardly a standard distro these days and was last updated 5 years ago so obviously not much happening these days. I doubt any of the common distros will have those libraries installed so if you want it to be used by others....
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-19 00:53 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <sd3b2b$1eqq$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161961 |
On 7/19/2021 12:50 AM, MrSpud_2fxg@cligh74ct.info wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:30:12 -0000 (UTC) > Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:04:16 +0000, MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r wrote: >>> I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that >>> accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok simply >>> exec's the required WM or enviroment. >> >> Not really. To satisfy a purely local login, you need a minimum of two input >> edit fields: a Username that echoes typed characters and a password that >> doesn't. >> If you add XDMCP into the mix (which I intend to do), you need an additional >> field that allows you to pick the host to connect to from a list of eligible >> hostnames. These three fields may require just one window, but more likely >> require more. In my experimentation, I have 7 windows just to handle this >> (a window for the Hostname, a window for the ScrollUp button, a window for >> the ScrollDown button, a window to frame the ScrollUp/Hostname/ScrollDown >> set, a window for the Username, a window for the Password, and a window to >> frame the whole set). >> >> Add to this a window for a localtime clock, a window for a terminal >> identification, >> and a window for a DM identifier, and all the miscellaneous windows >> needed to frame these presentation windows, and you have quite a number >> of windows to manage. >> >> Then, of course, there's the actual activities that the windows themselves >> present. I have a clock, so I must format and present the time and date. >> I have two text inputs, so I must write text editing code. I have a scrollable >> selection window, so I must write logic to update the selection, and to handle >> the ScrollUp and ScrollDown buttons. > > You can obviously add as many bells and whistles as you like, but ultimately > all you need for a basic login system is username and password - 1 window, > 2 textboxes. For the other stuff you don't need a drop down, you could just > have them pre-listed which can then be clicked on, much simpler. [...] Humm... https://secure.login.gov/ ;^)
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| From | MrSpud_X19y3su@nl5uzoqa76.info |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-07-19 08:16 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Wheel re-invention (Was: comp.lang.c blocked on Google Groups |
| Message-ID | <sd3cc7$4be$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #161962 |
On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:53:47 -0700 "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote: >On 7/19/2021 12:50 AM, MrSpud_2fxg@cligh74ct.info wrote: >> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 16:30:12 -0000 (UTC) >> Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote: >>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 15:04:16 +0000, MrSpud_Ccq3_3_r wrote: >>>> I should imagine most display managers are little more than a window that >>>> accepts password credentials which does credential checking and if ok >simply >>>> exec's the required WM or enviroment. >>> >>> Not really. To satisfy a purely local login, you need a minimum of two input > >>> edit fields: a Username that echoes typed characters and a password that >>> doesn't. >>> If you add XDMCP into the mix (which I intend to do), you need an additional > >>> field that allows you to pick the host to connect to from a list of eligible > >>> hostnames. These three fields may require just one window, but more likely >>> require more. In my experimentation, I have 7 windows just to handle this >>> (a window for the Hostname, a window for the ScrollUp button, a window for >>> the ScrollDown button, a window to frame the ScrollUp/Hostname/ScrollDown >>> set, a window for the Username, a window for the Password, and a window to >>> frame the whole set). >>> >>> Add to this a window for a localtime clock, a window for a terminal >>> identification, >>> and a window for a DM identifier, and all the miscellaneous windows >>> needed to frame these presentation windows, and you have quite a number >>> of windows to manage. >>> >>> Then, of course, there's the actual activities that the windows themselves >>> present. I have a clock, so I must format and present the time and date. >>> I have two text inputs, so I must write text editing code. I have a >scrollable >>> selection window, so I must write logic to update the selection, and to >handle >>> the ScrollUp and ScrollDown buttons. >> >> You can obviously add as many bells and whistles as you like, but ultimately >> all you need for a basic login system is username and password - 1 window, >> 2 textboxes. For the other stuff you don't need a drop down, you could just >> have them pre-listed which can then be clicked on, much simpler. >[...] > >Humm... > >https://secure.login.gov/ Have a look at the MacOS login screen. 2 textboxs, nothing else (for normal use), not even a window, just a background picture and a few buttons down the bottom for reboot etc.
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