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[offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition

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  [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 03:54 -0700
    Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition felix@palmen-it.de (Felix Palmen) - 2020-03-28 12:11 +0100
      Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 05:45 -0700
        Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition felix@palmen-it.de (Felix Palmen) - 2020-03-28 15:41 +0100
          Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 08:05 -0500
            Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition felix@palmen-it.de (Felix Palmen) - 2020-03-30 17:43 +0200
              Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 12:04 -0500
    Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 04:16 -0700
      Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 05:32 -0700
    Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition bert <bert.hutchings@btinternet.com> - 2020-03-28 07:05 -0700
      Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 08:13 -0700
        Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-03-28 15:33 +0000
          Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 08:40 -0700
            Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 08:58 -0700
              Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 09:08 -0700
                Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 09:31 -0700
                  Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 10:51 -0700
                    Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 11:03 -0700
                      Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 11:10 -0700
          Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-03-30 18:31 +0100
            Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 11:26 -0700
              Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-03-30 21:09 +0100
            Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 13:45 -0500
            Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2020-03-31 18:56 +0000
              Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-03-31 20:32 +0100
                Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-31 13:51 -0700
        Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2020-03-29 22:40 -0500
    Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 16:09 +0100
    Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2020-03-28 14:10 -0400
      Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 11:59 -0700
        Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 12:02 -0700
          Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-03-28 12:49 -0700
      Re: [offtopic][retro] 16 color palette definition Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-03-28 20:57 +0000

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#150912

On Monday, 30 March 2020 18:31:42 UTC+1, Bart  wrote:
> On 28/03/2020 15:33, Bart wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Without a palette you need a minimum of 8 bits (say 3G+3R+2B) for 
> > general colour, or ideally 12 bits.
> 
> If stuck with 4 bits, and able to use a palette, then there is no clear 
> way of using RGB, as you use 1 bit for each of R, G, B, but then what 
> purpose is the 4th bit?
> 
> So I think it might be worth looking at using CMYK instead. C,M,Y,K are 
> used in printing, as either on or off. So such 4-bit colour pixels could 
> be used to show photos, given enough pixels and using dithering or 
> half-tone patterns.
>
K is the same as C M Y all on. However with traditional printing technology
using ink, the black you get from mixing the three chromatic inks isn't
very good. So the K channel was added. However you don't have that issue 
with electronic displays.

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#150916

On 30/03/2020 19:26, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Monday, 30 March 2020 18:31:42 UTC+1, Bart  wrote:
>> On 28/03/2020 15:33, Bart wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Without a palette you need a minimum of 8 bits (say 3G+3R+2B) for
>>> general colour, or ideally 12 bits.
>>
>> If stuck with 4 bits, and able to use a palette, then there is no clear
>> way of using RGB, as you use 1 bit for each of R, G, B, but then what
>> purpose is the 4th bit?
>>
>> So I think it might be worth looking at using CMYK instead. C,M,Y,K are
>> used in printing, as either on or off. So such 4-bit colour pixels could
>> be used to show photos, given enough pixels and using dithering or
>> half-tone patterns.
>>
> K is the same as C M Y all on. However with traditional printing technology
> using ink, the black you get from mixing the three chromatic inks isn't
> very good. So the K channel was added. However you don't have that issue
> with electronic displays.
> 

Yeah, you're probably right. 0001 would be black, but so would 1110.

So back to the same problem of choosing the best set of 16 colours to 
could be combined via patterns to display any photographic image.

Of course we could just use 3 bits, RGB or CMY, but then the 4th would 
be wasted.

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#150914

On 3/30/2020 12:31 PM, Bart wrote:
> On 28/03/2020 15:33, Bart wrote:
> 
>>
>> Without a palette you need a minimum of 8 bits (say 3G+3R+2B) for 
>> general colour, or ideally 12 bits.
> 
> If stuck with 4 bits, and able to use a palette, then there is no clear 
> way of using RGB, as you use 1 bit for each of R, G, B, but then what 
> purpose is the 4th bit?
> 
> So I think it might be worth looking at using CMYK instead. C,M,Y,K are 
> used in printing, as either on or off. So such 4-bit colour pixels could 
> be used to show photos, given enough pixels and using dithering or 
> half-tone patterns.

Could also do 1-bpp, but organize pixels in a Bayer pattern, eg:
  G R
  B G

Then, the pattern of pixels in each 4x4 block encodes which color the 
block pixels should be:
  1 1 0 0  //Pixels are white-on-black
  1 1 0 0
  0 0 1 1
  0 0 1 1
And:
  1 1 0 0  //Pixels are yellow-on-blue
  0 1 1 0
  0 0 1 1
  1 0 0 1
...

Then 2x2 sub-blocks are "foreground" or "background" depending on what 
pattern of pixels is set. Likewise, if the OR of the background 
sub-blocks encodes for white, the block is interpreted as monochrome 
white-on-black.

So:
  0 0, 0 0: Background, Black
  0 0, 0 1: Background, Green
  0 0, 1 0: Background, Blue
  0 0, 1 1: Background, Cyan
  0 1, 0 0: Background, Red
  0 1, 0 1: Background, Yellow
  0 1, 1 0: Background, Magenta
  0 1, 1 1: Monochrome Hint
  1 0, 0 0: Foreground, -
  1 0, 0 1: Foreground, Green
  1 0, 1 0: Foreground, Blue
  1 0, 1 1: Foreground, Cyan
  1 1, 0 0: Foreground, Red
  1 1, 0 1: Foreground, Yellow
  1 1, 1 0: Foreground, Magenta
  1 1, 1 1: Foreground, White

But, dunno how useful this would be...

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#150933

In comp.lang.c, Bart  <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> If stuck with 4 bits, and able to use a palette, then there is no clear 
> way of using RGB, as you use 1 bit for each of R, G, B, but then what 
> purpose is the 4th bit?

Wasn't it traditionally a brightness?

R G B br	->  modern RGB
0 0 0 0		->  000000
0 0 0 1		->  505050
1 1 1 0		->  A0A0A0
1 1 1 1		->  FFFFFF
1 0 0 0		->  800000
1 0 0 1		->  FF0000
0 1 0 0		->  008000
0 1 0 1		->  00FF00
0 0 1 0		->  000080
0 0 1 1		->  0000FF

(etc)

But I wouldn't call that a "palette". To me that term is when your
color is an index into a lookup table, not an attempt to make each
bit meaningful.

> So I think it might be worth looking at using CMYK instead. C,M,Y,K are 
> used in printing, as either on or off. So such 4-bit colour pixels could 
> be used to show photos, given enough pixels and using dithering or 
> half-tone patterns.

I think using CMYK for screens, and 4 bit CMYK at that, is foolish. Too
many colors in the CMYK space have redundant representations and it's
not a close match for display hardware. There are technical reasons
due to ink opacity and drying time to choose between 30% K or 50% K
which make no sense for a photon driven output.

Elijah
------
four bit RGBA to blend with a background color may make sense, too

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#150935

On 31/03/2020 19:56, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> In comp.lang.c, Bart  <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>> If stuck with 4 bits, and able to use a palette, then there is no clear
>> way of using RGB, as you use 1 bit for each of R, G, B, but then what
>> purpose is the 4th bit?
> 
> Wasn't it traditionally a brightness?
> 
> R G B br	->  modern RGB
> 0 0 0 0		->  000000
> 0 0 0 1		->  505050
> 1 1 1 0		->  A0A0A0
> 1 1 1 1		->  FFFFFF
> 1 0 0 0		->  800000
> 1 0 0 1		->  FF0000
> 0 1 0 0		->  008000
> 0 1 0 1		->  00FF00
> 0 0 1 0		->  000080
> 0 0 1 1		->  0000FF
> 
> (etc)
> 
> But I wouldn't call that a "palette". To me that term is when your
> color is an index into a lookup table, not an attempt to make each
> bit meaningful.

A palette can be involved, even if the bits directly correspond to RGB 
with one spare. For example, if generating a 4-bit/16-colour BMP file, 
that required a palette. And I think Windows' display also made use of a 
palette, but I forget all the details.

>> So I think it might be worth looking at using CMYK instead. C,M,Y,K are
>> used in printing, as either on or off. So such 4-bit colour pixels could
>> be used to show photos, given enough pixels and using dithering or
>> half-tone patterns.
> 
> I think using CMYK for screens, and 4 bit CMYK at that, is foolish. Too
> many colors in the CMYK space have redundant representations and it's
> not a close match for display hardware. There are technical reasons
> due to ink opacity and drying time to choose between 30% K or 50% K
> which make no sense for a photon driven output.

Thinking CMYK would give you 16 different colours was misguided.

But CMYK /is/ fundamentally 4-bit: each ink is either present or not 
present on the paper.

When I was writing drivers for colour dot matrix in the 80s, each colour 
was either on or off. However for the sorts of reason you say, solid 
colours (all dots coloured for an area of solid Magenta, say), would be 
too intense (the paper would become saturated with ink).

So only a proportion of dots would be coloured, according to some 
scheme. (Another thing was, if doing separate passes of the print head 
for each primary, you did the lighter colours last.)

I think, with an original image of 24/32 bits, you might sometimes use 
CMYK over RGB, but for specialist work.

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#150936

On Tuesday, 31 March 2020 20:32:51 UTC+1, Bart  wrote:
> On 31/03/2020 19:56, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> > In comp.lang.c, Bart  <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> >> If stuck with 4 bits, and able to use a palette, then there is no clear
> >> way of using RGB, as you use 1 bit for each of R, G, B, but then what
> >> purpose is the 4th bit?
> > 
> > Wasn't it traditionally a brightness?
> > 
> > R G B br	->  modern RGB
> > 0 0 0 0		->  000000
> > 0 0 0 1		->  505050
> > 1 1 1 0		->  A0A0A0
> > 1 1 1 1		->  FFFFFF
> > 1 0 0 0		->  800000
> > 1 0 0 1		->  FF0000
> > 0 1 0 0		->  008000
> > 0 1 0 1		->  00FF00
> > 0 0 1 0		->  000080
> > 0 0 1 1		->  0000FF
> > 
> > (etc)
> > 
> > But I wouldn't call that a "palette". To me that term is when your
> > color is an index into a lookup table, not an attempt to make each
> > bit meaningful.
> 
> A palette can be involved, even if the bits directly correspond to RGB 
> with one spare. For example, if generating a 4-bit/16-colour BMP file, 
> that required a palette. And I think Windows' display also made use of a 
> palette, but I forget all the details.
> 
You can also set up the palette on an 8 bit display so that two bits
represent the blue component and three bits red and green. That gives
you crude true colour graphics.

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#150900

On 3/28/2020 10:13 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 March 2020 14:06:09 UTC, bert  wrote:
>> On Saturday, 28 March 2020 10:54:53 UTC, fir  wrote:
>>> in some retro hardware you might got 16 colors
>>> for all machine, this colors was given in a
>>> set of 16 colors as some predefined palette.
>>>
>>> the question is:
>>> is there some one common standard for those colors?
>>
>> No.  I think there were early combinations of machine
>> and software where there were lots of display colors,
>> but you could only choose 16 of them (a palette) for
>> use at a time.  Once chosen and loaded, a 4-bit index
>> into the palette was enough for each pixel in an image.
>>
> And often you had 16 or so palettes, which applied to a 8x8 block
> of the screen. So each 8x8 block consisred of a 4 bit palette
> index, followed by 64 4 bit entry indices. It was actually
> possible to create a fairly good representation of a 24-bit
> rgb image with such a restriction. That was my first paid
> programming job.
> 

It is possible to get by reasonably well with less than this:
Two color endpoints (potentially selected from a palette);
2 bits per pixel, selecting either A, B, or a 1/3 or 2/3 interpolated.


For a little less cost (but also less quality), one can drop down to 
1-bpp, selecting one of the endpoints.

Eg:
   16b: ColorAB
   16b: Pixels (4x4)

Say, ColorAB is:
  drrr-rdgg-ggdb-bbbd

Which then encodes a center color and a difference:
   A={r+d, g+d, b+d}, B={r-d, g-d, b-d}

Or, a little more fancy (tradeoff):
  vrrr-vdgg-gvdb-bbvd
    vvvv encodes a vector in RGB space:
    0000: {r + d, g + d, b + d} (LSB=000)
    0001: {r    , g    , b + d}
    0010: {r    , g + d, b    }
    0011: {r    , g + d, b + d}
    0100: {r + d, g    , b    }
    0101: {r + d, g    , b + d}
    0110: {r + d, g + d, b    }
    0111: {r + d, g + d, b + d} (LSB=110)
    1000: {r + d, g + d, b + d} (LSB=011)
    1001: {r + d, g + d, b - d}
    1010: {r - d, g + d, b - d}
    1011: {r    , g + d, b - d}
    1100: {r - d, g + d, b + d}
    1101: {r + d, g    , b - d}
    1110: {r - d, g + d, b    }
    1111: {r + d, g + d, b + d} (LSB=101)


Doing 8x8 with a single pair of endpoints doesn't quite fare as well 
IME, but is workable, say:
   16b: ColorAB
   64b: Pixels (8x8)

Which would cost ~ 25% more than a 1-bpp monochrome image, but could be 
a lot more colorful.


But, lots of possibilities exist here...

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#150883

You need only 8 colours to dither the rest. Hrhr.

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#150892

On March 28, 2020 06:54, fir wrote:

> i know its offtopic hovever i can mention
> that c world borders or even includes some
> things like some definition of some
> fundamental sets (like ansi, float ieee  standards etc) and this question
> is about something that my seen be like that
> 
> in some retro hardware you might got 16 colors for all machine, this
> colors was given in a set of 16 colors as some predefined palette
> 
> for some fun i wonder if not to 'enconporate' (adopt) some kind of this
> palette for my purposes (like some basic colors of debig or eventually
> some other uses)
> 
> the wuestion is:
> 1) is there some one common standard for those colors ? (or maybe some few
> dominant or something?) (if its "standard" i could use to conform to
> popular standard)
 
You might try the 16 colours recognized by the HTML 4.0 standard
(see https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.5 ):
  Black, Silver, Gray, White
  Maroon, Red, Purple, Fuscia
  Green, Lime, Olive, Yellow
  Navy, Blue, Teal, Aqua



-- 
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

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#150894

W dniu sobota, 28 marca 2020 19:10:35 UTC+1 użytkownik Lew Pitcher napisał:
> On March 28, 2020 06:54, fir wrote:
> 
> > i know its offtopic hovever i can mention
> > that c world borders or even includes some
> > things like some definition of some
> > fundamental sets (like ansi, float ieee  standards etc) and this question
> > is about something that my seen be like that
> > 
> > in some retro hardware you might got 16 colors for all machine, this
> > colors was given in a set of 16 colors as some predefined palette
> > 
> > for some fun i wonder if not to 'enconporate' (adopt) some kind of this
> > palette for my purposes (like some basic colors of debig or eventually
> > some other uses)
> > 
> > the wuestion is:
> > 1) is there some one common standard for those colors ? (or maybe some few
> > dominant or something?) (if its "standard" i could use to conform to
> > popular standard)
>  
> You might try the 16 colours recognized by the HTML 4.0 standard
> (see https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.5 ):
>   Black, Silver, Gray, White
>   Maroon, Red, Purple, Fuscia
>   Green, Lime, Olive, Yellow
>   Navy, Blue, Teal, Aqua
> 
> 

somke are wasted to me  (llike fuchsia)
and there is a lack of some

i opened paint and paint has some predefined colors down below and i chose
same from that

http://minddetonator.htw.pl/colorz.png

this is more what i see usefull
though i maybe misteken some a bit and some places too, like white should be in row with yellow?

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#150895

W dniu sobota, 28 marca 2020 19:59:36 UTC+1 użytkownik fir napisał:
> W dniu sobota, 28 marca 2020 19:10:35 UTC+1 użytkownik Lew Pitcher napisał:
> > On March 28, 2020 06:54, fir wrote:
> > 
> > > i know its offtopic hovever i can mention
> > > that c world borders or even includes some
> > > things like some definition of some
> > > fundamental sets (like ansi, float ieee  standards etc) and this question
> > > is about something that my seen be like that
> > > 
> > > in some retro hardware you might got 16 colors for all machine, this
> > > colors was given in a set of 16 colors as some predefined palette
> > > 
> > > for some fun i wonder if not to 'enconporate' (adopt) some kind of this
> > > palette for my purposes (like some basic colors of debig or eventually
> > > some other uses)
> > > 
> > > the wuestion is:
> > > 1) is there some one common standard for those colors ? (or maybe some few
> > > dominant or something?) (if its "standard" i could use to conform to
> > > popular standard)
> >  
> > You might try the 16 colours recognized by the HTML 4.0 standard
> > (see https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.5 ):
> >   Black, Silver, Gray, White
> >   Maroon, Red, Purple, Fuscia
> >   Green, Lime, Olive, Yellow
> >   Navy, Blue, Teal, Aqua
> > 
> > 
> 
> somke are wasted to me  (llike fuchsia)
> and there is a lack of some
> 
> i opened paint and paint has some predefined colors down below and i chose
> same from that
> 
> http://minddetonator.htw.pl/colorz.png
> 
> this is more what i see usefull
> though i maybe misteken some a bit and some places too, like white should be in row with yellow?

i also put teal twice i see, now thats a mistaje there should be something other

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#150896

W dniu sobota, 28 marca 2020 20:03:07 UTC+1 użytkownik fir napisał:
> W dniu sobota, 28 marca 2020 19:59:36 UTC+1 użytkownik fir napisał:
> > W dniu sobota, 28 marca 2020 19:10:35 UTC+1 użytkownik Lew Pitcher napisał:
> > > On March 28, 2020 06:54, fir wrote:
> > > 
> > > > i know its offtopic hovever i can mention
> > > > that c world borders or even includes some
> > > > things like some definition of some
> > > > fundamental sets (like ansi, float ieee  standards etc) and this question
> > > > is about something that my seen be like that
> > > > 
> > > > in some retro hardware you might got 16 colors for all machine, this
> > > > colors was given in a set of 16 colors as some predefined palette
> > > > 
> > > > for some fun i wonder if not to 'enconporate' (adopt) some kind of this
> > > > palette for my purposes (like some basic colors of debig or eventually
> > > > some other uses)
> > > > 
> > > > the wuestion is:
> > > > 1) is there some one common standard for those colors ? (or maybe some few
> > > > dominant or something?) (if its "standard" i could use to conform to
> > > > popular standard)
> > >  
> > > You might try the 16 colours recognized by the HTML 4.0 standard
> > > (see https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.5 ):
> > >   Black, Silver, Gray, White
> > >   Maroon, Red, Purple, Fuscia
> > >   Green, Lime, Olive, Yellow
> > >   Navy, Blue, Teal, Aqua
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > somke are wasted to me  (llike fuchsia)
> > and there is a lack of some
> > 
> > i opened paint and paint has some predefined colors down below and i chose
> > same from that
> > 
> > http://minddetonator.htw.pl/colorz.png
> > 
> > this is more what i see usefull
> > though i maybe misteken some a bit and some places too, like white should be in row with yellow?
> 
> i also put teal twice i see, now thats a mistaje there should be something other

and now that is literally too hard to answer to me (that i name as kinda hard problems, same things appear in some c-syntax improving ideas)

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#150897

On Sat, 2020-03-28, Lew Pitcher wrote:
> On March 28, 2020 06:54, fir wrote:
>
>> i know its offtopic hovever i can mention
>> that c world borders or even includes some
>> things like some definition of some
>> fundamental sets (like ansi, float ieee  standards etc) and this question
>> is about something that my seen be like that
>> 
>> in some retro hardware you might got 16 colors for all machine, this
>> colors was given in a set of 16 colors as some predefined palette
>> 
>> for some fun i wonder if not to 'enconporate' (adopt) some kind of this
>> palette for my purposes (like some basic colors of debig or eventually
>> some other uses)
>> 
>> the wuestion is:
>> 1) is there some one common standard for those colors ? (or maybe some few
>> dominant or something?) (if its "standard" i could use to conform to
>> popular standard)
>  
> You might try the 16 colours recognized by the HTML 4.0 standard
> (see https://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#h-6.5 ):
>   Black, Silver, Gray, White
>   Maroon, Red, Purple, Fuscia
>   Green, Lime, Olive, Yellow
>   Navy, Blue, Teal, Aqua

There's also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter#Color_palette
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code#Colors

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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