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Re: Octal

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From Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Octal
Date Thu, 29 Dec 2016 15:33:38 -0800
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supercat@casperkitty.com writes:
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 3:35:25 PM UTC-6, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>> supercat writes:
>> > The only thing that erroneously regards 0x123E+4 as a combination of
>> > floating and integer constants is a sloppily-written standard. [...]
>> 
>> Ahh, good old supercat.. never one to let facts stand in the way
>> of an unwarranted accusation.
>
> The rationale for the Standard recognizes that the grammar as written will
> reject constructs like 0x1E+2, and offers no real justification beyond the
> fact that the authors are worried that a rule which didn't reject such
> constructs might pose an undue burden on the preprossor (notwithstanding
> the fact that many compilers seemed to have no trouble recognizing that
> 0x1E+2 was an expression that added the hex constant 0x1E and the number 2).

The rationale also mentions simplifying the description of preprocessing.

Compilers that "have no trouble recognizing" it are non-conforming.
I wonder what other language rules they're ignoring.

> The situation with x+++++y is not comparable, because having that scan as
> x++ + ++y would require feedback from the parsing stage to the scanning
> stage--something not required to recognize that a token starting with 0x
> is a hex literal and cannot contain a "+" sign.  Further, the rule which
> eagerly left-binds the "++" operator is necessary to prevent "x++ +y" from
> parsing as the equally-valid "x + + + y".

And scanning 0x1E+2 as 0x1E + 2 would, given the current definition of a
pp-number, require feedback from translation phase 7 to translation
phase 3.

> Can you provide examples of plausibly-useful C89 programming construct whose
> behavior would be affected by changing the scanning rules so that:
>
> 1. The ## operator will act as though the left and right sides are run
>    together with no whitespace, even if that would not cause any new token
>    to bridge the gap between them.
>
> 2. After # directives are processed, tokens are initially broken up as
>    strings of [0-9A-Za-z_] separated by strings of other characters; all
>    other scanning is deferred until after macro substitution.

The point of this, I think, is to allow multiple preprocessing tokens to
be stitched together into a single token; is that correct?  I think
that's a really bad idea that would unnecessarily complicate the
description of how C source is processed.  Translating one pp-token to
one token is a much simpler rule that makes it easier to reason about C
code.

> The addition of hex floating-point literals would make it necessary to add
> an extra rule to avoid having the preprocessor perform macro substitution
> on the second half of the literal 0x1.ABC,

0x1.ABC is not a valid floating constant, but that would apply to
`0x1.ABCp2`.  I wonder how many other additional rules would be needed
to make your scheme work.

>                                            but other than that can you offer
> any examples of conveivably-useful constructs where the above rules would
> not yield behavior equivalent to the Standard?

Not off the top of my head (and I'm not willing to spend much time
thinking of any such examples).

If allowing 0x1E+2 is that important to you (I can't imagine why), I
think you could "fix" it by dropping the idea of pp-numbers and
requiring the preprocessor to recognize integer and floating constants
using the same syntax as 6.4.4.1 and 6.4.4.2.  Then 0x1E+2 would be
three preprocessing tokens (integer constant 0x1E, punctuator +, and
integer constant 2), each of which would be converted to a single token.

I do not advocate such a change, but I suppose I wouldn't object to it.
On the other hand, there could still be problems I'm not seeing.  In any
case, I'm perfectly happy with the status quo, though it is mildly
interesting to see that it causes this trivial issue in an obscure
corner case.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something.  This is something.  Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"

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Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 14:08 +0000
  Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 06:19 -0800
    Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 14:58 +0000
      Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 07:07 -0800
        Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 15:22 +0000
          Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 07:37 -0800
            Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 16:24 +0000
              Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 08:30 -0800
              Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 09:10 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 09:35 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 10:47 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:03 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 12:27 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:44 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 13:37 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 16:38 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 17:53 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 20:26 -0600
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 18:48 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 22:20 -0600
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 18:41 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 19:19 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-29 14:52 +1300
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 18:41 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-28 16:54 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 17:44 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:17 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 22:39 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 11:49 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-27 23:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 12:32 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 00:51 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-28 14:00 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 01:13 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-27 20:04 -0600
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-27 18:45 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-12-29 13:35 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 14:49 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-29 15:33 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 12:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-13 15:19 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 15:32 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-14 12:35 +1300
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 15:51 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-13 18:25 -0800
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-01-14 06:21 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-14 14:00 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:08 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:02 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-13 18:52 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 23:46 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 01:46 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-31 08:33 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 17:19 -0800
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 09:39 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:02 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 12:13 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:41 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:31 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:39 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 22:05 +0100
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:01 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:05 +0000
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-28 11:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 12:01 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 12:30 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 13:51 +0100
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 16:26 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 08:40 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:41 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 18:04 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 19:36 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 19:42 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-29 00:34 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 11:04 -0800
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 12:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 16:46 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 00:56 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 17:52 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 11:27 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 12:09 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 08:17 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:02 +0000
                Re: Octal Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-12-28 17:25 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 17:45 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:21 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 09:27 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:23 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-28 11:18 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:19 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 15:54 +0000
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-29 12:57 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:01 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:44 +0100
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 17:32 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 17:03 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 16:26 -0600
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 11:31 +1300
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-29 16:58 -0600
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 11:59 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 09:00 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:21 +0100
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:29 -0800
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:29 -0800
                Re: Octal asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-30 01:36 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 11:52 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 17:10 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 05:52 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 19:51 -0600
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 21:09 +0000
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:15 +1300
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-29 13:53 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 12:07 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-30 05:31 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 15:00 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 15:55 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-01 16:00 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 08:33 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 09:02 +1300
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 09:38 +1300
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2017-01-01 13:59 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-01 14:24 -0800
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-01 15:51 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 13:09 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-01 16:50 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:24 +1300
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-02 01:53 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2017-01-02 14:15 +1300
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-02 02:28 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 06:24 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 17:53 +0000
                Re: Octal luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-30 10:01 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 09:57 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 13:50 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 11:09 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 14:46 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 12:28 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 16:01 -0800
                Re: Octal Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-30 14:48 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 22:51 +0000
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-30 15:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-31 12:34 +1300
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 23:40 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 22:12 +0000
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 21:38 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 12:04 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 13:42 +0100
                Re: Octal Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-30 08:59 +1300
                Re: Octal supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-29 12:23 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-30 10:56 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 22:09 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 12:27 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 21:18 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:46 +0000
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 20:55 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 14:54 -0600
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 15:44 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 19:39 +0000
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 15:04 -0600
                Re: Octal raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-12-28 19:52 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-29 09:36 -0800
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-29 18:02 +0000
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-30 16:17 +0000
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-01 16:09 +0100
                Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 20:02 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:32 -0800
                Re: Octal Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-12-29 13:45 +0000
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 17:16 +0000
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 10:04 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-02 02:26 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-02 12:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-12 23:22 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-13 10:04 -0800
                Re: Octal Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-14 00:45 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:59 -0800
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 09:45 -0800
        Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-27 17:14 +0100
          Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-27 08:23 -0800
            Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 10:37 +0100
              Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 03:07 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 12:25 +0100
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 11:58 +0000
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 04:35 -0800
                Re: Octal Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-28 17:31 +0000
                Re: Octal "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-28 09:38 -0800
                Re: Octal Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-28 15:12 -0600
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 12:01 -0800
              Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 09:20 -0800
                Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-28 13:39 -0800
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-29 12:29 +0100
                Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 22:20 +0100
      Re: Octal Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2016-12-28 13:02 +0100
        Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-28 13:30 +0100
        Re: Octal BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-28 13:25 +0000
  Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 15:19 +0100
    Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 08:37 -0800
      Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 18:43 +0100
        Re: Octal Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-27 12:07 -0800
    Re: Octal Manfred <noname@invalid.add> - 2016-12-27 18:21 +0100
  Re: Octal David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-27 15:28 +0100
  Re: Octal BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2016-12-27 11:42 -0600

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