Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi.

From	jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi.
Date	2015-09-22 18:17 +0000
Organization	Freie Universitaet Berlin
Message-ID	<d6dka0Fora6U1@mid.uni-berlin.de> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <f3842$5600536b$d47876e2$45003@news.ziggo.nl> <MPG.306a4b87db8f8e87989cf8@news.eternal-september.org> <id210btlsqe47v45golbv08mkesillqbnc@4ax.com> <56008F7B.3030501@verizon.net> <bd1b9cab-9d05-4fac-8068-63f5079609d4@googlegroups.com>

Show all headers | View raw

supercat@casperkitty.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:15:24 PM UTC-5, James Kuyper wrote:
> > For certain unportable assumptions about how x>>31 works for negative
> > numbers, ...

> I really wish the C Standard would recognize categories of conformance
> between "strictly conforming" [doesn't use any features beyond those which
> the most perversely-designed implementation would be required to support]
> and "conforming" [works as required in some dialect somewhere].

> I recognize that there exist implementations where right-shifts of negative
> numbers behave in some fashion other than floored division, there likely
> exists production code which relies upon such behavior, and mandating that
> those implementations start using the common behavior would break any code
> that relies upon something else, but I see no good reason why the existence
> of such implementations should preclude the possibility of saying "Absent
> a reason to do otherwise, two's-complement C implementations should implement
> the right-shift operator on signed values to perform floored division (which
> is the same as a sign-extending shift); implementations must define a macro
> which code that requires the typical behavior can use to refuse compilation
> on platforms that don't support it.

> The behaviors which emerged as normative in the 1990s and which dialects
> strove to support absent a compelling reason otherwise [even in cases where
> such support would require an extra instruction or two here and there] form
> a useful dialect.  By contrast, the dialect of C required for a strictly-
> conforming program is uselessly anemic.  Too bad nobody in the intervening
> decades has formalized a "normative" C standard.

What would it actually be good for? When actually do you need to
right-shift signed integers? I've seen that done in two catego-
ries of code: one was very low level, platform dependent stuff,
where someone knew the behaviour of the underlying CPU and what
the compiler does very well (and thus had no trouble understanding
what the risks might be) and, on the other hand, in code by "cow-
boy" programmers that have some vague notion that bit-fiddling and
right-shifting would be faster than a division by a power of two,
and typically have no good idea what they are doing.

Would it be necessary to change the standard (with all possible
unintended consequences) for the benefits of the second group,
just to avoid trouble for them when they falsely assume that a
right-shift is identlical to an integer division by 2? And that
at the cost that people using C for very hardware-near program-
ming now wouldn't be able anymore to exploit what the CPU is
actually doing in highly time-critical situations?

To me your proposal with macros and other kind of stuff (like
distinguishing between 1's and 2's complement architectures)
sounds actually a lot more complicated than remembering the
simple rule that you just don't shift signed integers - there
is no good reason for doing it I can see in everyday code (and
the assumption that it's faster is likely to be wrong - if a
division can be made faster by replacing it by a shift that's
one of the easiest things for an optimizing compiler).

                          Regards, Jens
-- 
  \   Jens Thoms Toerring  ___      jt@toerring.de
   \__________________________      http://toerring.de

Thread

How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 20:17 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 20:43 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-21 19:51 +0100
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 23:26 +0200
      Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-21 22:47 +0100
        Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 16:29 +0200
          Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-22 16:11 +0100
            Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-23 11:18 +0200
              Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-23 13:01 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 20:53 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 20:54 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 20:58 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2015-09-21 18:15 -0400
      Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-21 15:21 -0700
      Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-21 17:51 -0500
        Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-21 19:15 -0400
          Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-21 23:59 -0500
          Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-22 09:22 -0700
            Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-22 10:32 -0700
            Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2015-09-22 18:17 +0000
              Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-22 12:25 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2015-09-22 22:33 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-22 15:52 -0700
            Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-09-22 23:09 +0000
              Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-23 09:07 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-09-23 16:55 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-23 10:46 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2015-09-23 23:18 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-23 22:29 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-24 11:09 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-27 18:23 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-28 05:20 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-27 23:23 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-28 09:03 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-28 01:24 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-28 09:32 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-09-28 10:22 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-28 11:35 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-28 10:33 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-28 18:59 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-28 20:09 +0200
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 13:39 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-28 20:04 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 16:43 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 18:55 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 19:31 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-28 12:16 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-28 14:31 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 16:47 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-29 11:54 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-01 00:36 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-10-02 10:53 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-02 09:48 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-03 11:27 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-03 12:32 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-03 11:26 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-04 16:46 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-28 14:23 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 16:52 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-30 01:39 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-30 12:37 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-30 21:28 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-30 17:54 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-01 03:59 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-10-01 01:42 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-30 16:20 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-04 16:39 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-28 23:23 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-29 09:35 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-10-02 11:06 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-02 09:23 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-02 12:07 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-02 10:47 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-02 17:48 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-03 16:46 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-05 10:41 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-28 15:31 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 16:40 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-28 18:17 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-30 02:49 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-30 06:27 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-29 10:43 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-28 22:51 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-30 02:11 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-28 22:48 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-28 22:03 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-30 01:13 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-09-30 17:06 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-09-30 17:26 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-30 13:04 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-28 09:12 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-28 12:28 +0200
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-09-28 20:44 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-01 01:39 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-01 08:55 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-01 09:02 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-01 14:55 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-01 16:48 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-10-02 11:46 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-06 00:15 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-10-06 02:43 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-10-06 10:13 +0200
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-10-06 19:14 -0500
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-06 21:36 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-06 09:25 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-06 09:28 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-06 13:11 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-06 13:56 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-07 00:25 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-06 09:44 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-06 10:08 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-06 12:00 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-07 01:58 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-07 10:12 +0100
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-08 00:40 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-10-03 12:29 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-03 13:20 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-10-03 12:33 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-10-03 17:02 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-03 15:04 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-04 05:12 +0000
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-04 12:58 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-10-03 12:37 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-10-03 16:21 -0400
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-03 16:05 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-03 14:02 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-09-24 09:39 -0700
                Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-09-27 16:26 +0000
        Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2015-09-21 22:06 -0400
          Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-22 10:17 -0400
            Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2015-09-22 19:48 -0400
              Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2015-09-23 13:15 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 21:25 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 21:54 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 22:02 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-21 21:50 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> - 2015-09-21 18:08 -0400
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 08:31 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 10:18 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 10:50 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 11:00 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 11:07 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 11:20 +0200
  Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 11:15 +0200
    Re: How to write this sign function in Delphi. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 11:23 +0200

csiph-web