Re: Types in C

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From	Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Types in C
Date	Mon, 23 May 2011 21:22:23 -0400
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On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:57:10PM +0000, Seebs wrote:
> On 2011-05-23, Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 10:24:31PM +0000, Seebs wrote:
> >> On 2011-05-23, Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > There are no "user defined" types in C.
> 
> >> Sure there are!
> 
> > Oh, no there aren't!
> 
> Well, I'll qualify it:
> 
> There are rules in C for defining things which the language calls
> "types" and which participate fully in the general C rules about type
> aliasing and type safety.
> 
> >> So?  Doesn't make them not types.  Pointers, arrays, enums, structs,
> >> unions... all types.  Structs and unions are user-defined.  And they are
> >> types.  This makes them... *drumroll* user-defined types.
> 
> > Not if we make a finer distinction between types.
> 
> That distinction is *within* the category of "types", though.

Absolutely correct, but I think it may be an error to use the word
"type" to mean several different things:  'basic' types,
aggregates of basic types, enumerated types, unions, structures, and
function definitions.  All these things have wildly different
semantics and varying syntax.  They aren't all interchangable, and
therefore are differing entities.  We say 'type', but the definition
changes depending on what we are discussing.
 
> > char, int, long, float, void *, etc. are /basic types/ fundamental to
> > the implementation of the C language (and arithmetic operations).
> > Compound types are aggregates of these basic types as well as compound
> > types.  There's a fundamental difference you are ignoring given a
> > sufficient vague definition of 'type'.
> 
> No, I'm not ignoring that difference.  I'm stating that it is a difference
> between some types and other types; between basic types and derived types,
> say.  Or basic types and aggregate types.
> 
> But aggregate types are still types!

I have no real argument there except to say that an aggregate type is
not the same thing as a basic type, even if the way they are used in a
program can be similar.  For instance, everyone knows that the address
of an integer, float, structure, or function can be taken.  Yet, I
cannot perform addition on functions.  They are different things.
 
> > A real user-defined type would be something new like the complex
> > numbers extension in gcc.
> 
> No, that would be a new user-defined *basic* type.  The word "type" has
> a very rigorous meaning in C, and aggregate types are types, and user-defined
> types exist.  That only some kinds of types can be user-defined doesn't
> change that.

Again, there is a huge qualitative difference between defining a new
integer type and a structure type.  
 
> >> I would guess that one of the times to use macros is "when you have to
> >> be portable to compilers that don't have inline functions".  That's
> >> definitely a key application.
> 
> > gmp is well into version 4; I doubt it would compile where there is no
> > support for inline functions, but I have not verified this.
> 
> As pointed out:  gmp is part of the bootstrap process for gcc.  It compiles
> on pretty old stuff, by necessity.

Which version of gmp does gcc use these days to support those old
platforms?



Regards,

Uncle Steve

-- 
Should a professional politician be charged with molestation if he
kisses babies while attending political rallies?

Thread

Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-22 21:29 +0200
  Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-22 12:48 -0700
  Re: Types in C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2011-05-22 23:03 +0100
    Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 10:35 +0200
      Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 08:40 -0700
        Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 17:19 +0000
          Re: Types in C John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2011-05-23 17:54 +0000
            Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 11:33 -0700
              Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 11:44 -0700
            Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 19:08 +0000
          Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 20:50 +0200
            Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 12:11 -0700
              Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 19:45 +0000
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 13:03 -0700
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 22:25 +0200
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 14:38 -0700
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 23:45 +0200
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 22:02 +0000
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-24 00:10 +0200
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 22:12 +0200
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-23 13:27 -0700
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 22:33 +0200
                Re: Types in C Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> - 2011-05-24 03:17 -0400
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-24 10:55 +0200
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 09:29 +1200
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 23:42 +0200
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 09:51 +1200
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-24 00:04 +0200
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 10:57 +1200
                Re: Types in C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 16:33 -0400
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 19:33 -0500
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 08:27 -0700
                Re: Types in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-31 00:40 -0700
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-31 11:32 +0200
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 11:30 -0700
                Re: Types in C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2011-06-01 01:23 -0700
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 16:51 -0400
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 09:25 +1200
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-23 23:40 +0200
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 08:36 -0700
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 17:53 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 22:24 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 19:23 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 23:57 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 21:22 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 03:46 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 00:24 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 04:44 +0000
                Re: Types in C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-24 07:46 -0400
                Re: Types in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-24 07:48 -0400
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 10:35 +1200
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 22:38 +0000
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 10:53 +1200
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 23:17 +0000
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 11:24 +1200
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 23:39 +0000
                Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-24 11:23 +0200
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 08:46 -0700
                Re: Types in C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2011-05-24 09:14 -0700
                Re: Types in C Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-05-28 21:50 -0700
                Re: Types in C "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-06-07 19:50 +0200
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 19:33 -0400
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 12:03 +1200
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 21:27 -0400
                Re: Types in C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-05-24 13:47 +1200
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 23:45 -0400
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 00:07 -0700
                Re: Types in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-24 08:05 -0400
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 19:54 -0500
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 21:03 -0400
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 22:12 -0500
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 00:03 -0400
                Re: Types in C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-24 00:19 -0400
                Re: Types in C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-24 00:20 -0400
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 00:46 -0500
                Re: Types in C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2011-05-24 07:36 -0400
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 10:58 -0400
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 09:40 -0700
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 21:36 -0400
                Re: Types in C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 16:33 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 16:50 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 21:10 -0400
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 18:19 -0700
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 21:42 -0400
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 23:47 -0500
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 10:13 -0400
                Re: Types in C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-24 22:19 -0600
                Re: Types in C Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-05-25 07:04 +0100
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-25 08:53 -0700
                Re: Types in C Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2011-05-25 10:11 -0600
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 09:02 -0700
                Re: Types in C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-05-24 07:37 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 22:02 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 18:15 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 22:25 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 19:39 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-23 23:57 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 21:10 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 01:58 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 23:56 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 04:32 +0000
                Re: Types in C "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-05-25 01:29 +0100
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 22:20 -0500
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 22:42 -0500
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 00:07 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 04:44 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 10:24 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-24 16:50 +0000
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 21:16 -0400
                Re: Types in C Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-05-25 03:36 +0000
                Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 01:26 -0500
                Re: Types in C Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 11:04 -0400
                Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-24 09:06 -0700
            Re: Types in C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2011-06-01 16:33 -0400
  Re: Types in C Marcin Grzegorczyk <mgrzegor@poczta.onet.pl> - 2011-05-30 22:42 +0200
    Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-30 17:45 -0500
      Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-05-31 08:47 -0700
        Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 13:54 -0400
    Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-05-31 00:16 +0200
      Re: Types in C Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2011-05-30 18:30 -0500
      Re: Types in C Marcin Grzegorczyk <mgrzegor@poczta.onet.pl> - 2011-06-02 22:44 +0200
        Re: Types in C jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-02 22:49 +0200
          Re: Types in C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-06-02 15:26 -0700

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