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Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually

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On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 04:58:09PM -0700, Joshua Maurice wrote:
> On Jul 6, 11:01 am, Uncle Steve <stevet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 09:20:57AM +1200, Ian Collins wrote:
> > > On 07/ 7/12 05:08 AM, Uncle Steve wrote:
> > > >This is a concern in my mind right now as I'm writing some posix
> > > >threads code, and so obviously there are a large number of variables
> > > >which ought to be declared volatile.
> >
> > > What leads you to that conclusion?  That line of though usually implies
> > > you are misunderstanding the relationship between volatile and threads.
> >
> > > What are you trying to achieve with volatile?
> >
> > Well, I have some data structures that will be accessed from arbitrary
> > threads, so I want to make sure there's no funny business happening
> > behind the scenes where the compiler decides that certain accesses are
> > optional.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > The variable declared volatile are required otherwise some variable
> > accesses are optimized out, giving inaccurate results during the data
> > acquisition phase.  The problems here are magnified when these access
> > patterns occur with competing threads.  IIRC, mutexes are not memory
> > access barriers and solve different problems.
> 
> To be topical, here's the answer for C11: volatile is useless as a
> portable threading construct. Do not use it. It's (maybe) useful in a
> portable way only for 3 obscure situations: MMIO, setjmp and longjmp
> stuff, and signal handling. If you properly use C11 mutexes, there is
> absolutely no need for volatile. To paraphrase you else-thread, there
> will be no "funny business" if you use mutexes correctly. It tells the
> compiler, the hardware, and anything else relevant, to obey the
> semantics of the mutex. volatile is similarly useless when you
> correctly use the new "weak" C11 atomics. volatile adds nothing
> (portably).
> 
> Now, to finally answer your question, C11 threading semantics,
> including the lack of useful volatile semantics, is basically copied
> wholesale from pthreads. Don't use volatile as a portable threading
> construct with pthreads either. pthread mutexes do everything you
> need. volatile adds absolutely nothing (portably).
> 
> (Yes, you can accomplish useful code with volatile for specific
> platform and specific compilers with specific settings. That's an
> "advanced" topic that I won't cover now.)
> 
> Now, what do you mean by "mutexes are not memory access barriers"?
> Mutexes do two things: they provide blocking semantics for mutual
> exclusion, and they guarantee visibility ala the usual "happens-
> before" semantics. Mutexes are implemented with hardware memory
> fences / barriers. This is all true for mutexes in pthreads, win32
> threads, Boost threads, ACE threads, C11 threads, C++11 threads, and
> every case I can recall seeing the word "mutex".

Well, mutexes are barriers for the memory accesses associated with the
mutex itself, but not in general.  Reading the above I can tell that
you think I'm using POSIX mutexes, however that is not the case.  I am
using a custom locking scheme that allows for concurrent readers, but
is exclusive for writers.  As a consequence, the behavior of
variables marked volatile in my code is critical, so I don't want to
mistakenly use it in a way that results in surprises.

Now you can say that what I am doing is non-portable, but you would
be wrong there since my algorithms are in fact portable as long as I
am following the rules of the C standard.  Perhaps the proper term is
limited portability as I rely on a tiny amount of platform specific
asm.  (One instruction.)


Regards,

Uncle Steve

-- 
The moon has never been closer.

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Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Myth__Buster <raghavanil4m@gmail.com> - 2012-07-05 10:44 -0700
  Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a  struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile  and non-volatile individually pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-07-05 14:59 -0400
    Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Myth__Buster <raghavanil4m@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 12:53 -0700
  Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-07-05 23:22 +0100
    Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 13:08 -0400
      Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 09:20 +1200
        Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 14:01 -0400
          Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-06 18:11 -0400
            Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 14:33 -0400
              Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 11:29 +1200
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 16:27 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 12:37 +1200
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 17:29 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-07 15:50 +1200
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 19:55 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-07 17:04 +0300
              Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-07 00:10 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 10:00 +0100
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-07 10:55 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 15:13 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 04:40 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-07 17:20 +0300
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-07 10:33 -0700
              Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-07 08:16 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 05:12 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-07-07 09:24 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 06:07 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-07-07 13:26 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 16:04 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-09 11:14 -0400
          Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 16:58 -0700
            Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 17:20 -0400
              Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 19:39 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 18:54 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 20:12 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 19:25 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 20:33 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimizationo to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 19:47 -0400
            Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-07-07 15:47 +0200
              Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 06:58 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-07-14 21:46 -0700
              Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 16:19 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-07-08 09:40 +0200
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-07-08 10:51 -0400
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-07-13 23:25 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-14 14:37 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-07-14 14:46 -0700
                Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-07-14 21:39 -0700
    Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-06 17:24 -0700
      Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-07-07 02:33 +0100
    Re: Clarification on the applicability of compile-time optimization to a struct variable which encompasses a mixture of fields declared as volatile and non-volatile individually Myth__Buster <raghavanil4m@gmail.com> - 2012-07-07 12:53 -0700

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