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anybody here?

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  anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-05 13:22 -0800
    Re: anybody here? Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2023-12-05 21:38 +0000
      Re: anybody here? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-12-05 21:55 +0000
        Re: anybody here? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2023-12-06 12:18 +0000
      Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-05 13:55 -0800
        Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-05 14:13 -0800
        Re: anybody here? Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2023-12-05 22:56 +0000
        Re: anybody here? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2023-12-06 09:27 +0100
    Re: anybody here? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2023-12-05 23:24 +0100
      Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-05 15:24 -0800
        Re: anybody here? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-12-06 08:50 +0100
          Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-06 12:44 -0800
            Re: anybody here? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-12-07 08:23 +0100
    Re: anybody here? Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2023-12-06 22:42 +0000
      Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-06 16:42 -0800
      Re: anybody here? Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2023-12-08 02:28 +0000
        Re: anybody here? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-12-08 14:16 +0100
          Re: anybody here? Kaz Kylheku <433-929-6894@kylheku.com> - 2023-12-08 22:41 +0000
            Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-08 18:41 -0800
            Re: anybody here? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-12-09 15:22 +0100
        Re: anybody here? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-12-08 12:15 -0800
    Re: anybody here? Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2023-12-06 17:34 -0600

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#118023 — anybody here?

Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.

Anybody there? ;^D

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#118024

On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>
> Anybody there? ;^D

I'm here ... just that your questions / discussions of late have sailed
clear over my head :|



-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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#118025

Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes:
>On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>
>> Anybody there? ;^D
>
>I'm here ... just that your questions / discussions of late have sailed
>clear over my head :|

I'm here.   Too busy at the momement to think about fancy synchronization topics.

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#118033

On 05/12/2023 21:55, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> I'm here.   Too busy at the momement to think about fancy synchronization topics.

I'm in the reverse position. I retired last year, and have been 
considering saying goodbye to you all. I don't seem to have the time for 
all those little personal C++ projects I shelved for my retirement!

Andy

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#118026

On 12/5/2023 1:38 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>
>> Anybody there? ;^D
> 
> I'm here ... just that your questions / discussions of late have sailed
> clear over my head :|

The atomics and memory barriers? For some damn reason, I thought that 
Bonita would flame me up pretty good just for modeling my experiment in 
Relacy first. lol. Afaict, she seems to dislike any type of race 
detector... ;^)

Btw, have you taken a look at my highly experimental xchg work system? 
Right now its implemented within the realm of a Relacy test unit. 
However, I am going to port it into actual pure C++11 for all of us to 
be able to play around with.

I personally want to use it for some of my CPU based vector field 
plotting logic. I am pondering on how I might distribute the workload 
across a system using my experimental xchg based work system.

So, when I get the time to port, might be tonight or sometime tomorrow, 
can you do be a favor and try to compile and run it? Tell me all about 
the output you get. I am mainly interesting in the local work vs foreign 
work the system does during a test run...

Fwiw, here is one of my vector fields I have in mind:

https://youtu.be/YsAkm0VlCsw

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#118027

On 12/5/2023 1:55 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 12/5/2023 1:38 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>>
>>> Anybody there? ;^D
>>
>> I'm here ... just that your questions / discussions of late have sailed
>> clear over my head :|
> 
> The atomics and memory barriers? For some damn reason, I thought that 
> Bonita would flame me up pretty good just for modeling my experiment in 
> Relacy first. lol. Afaict, she seems to dislike any type of race 
> detector... ;^)
> 
> Btw, have you taken a look at my highly experimental xchg work system? 
> Right now its implemented within the realm of a Relacy test unit. 
> However, I am going to port it into actual pure C++11 for all of us to 
> be able to play around with.
> 
> I personally want to use it for some of my CPU based vector field 
> plotting logic. I am pondering on how I might distribute the workload 
> across a system using my experimental xchg based work system.
> 
> So, when I get the time to port, might be tonight or sometime tomorrow, 
> can you do be a favor and try to compile and run it? Tell me all about 
> the output you get. I am mainly interesting in the local work vs foreign 
> work the system does during a test run...
> 
> Fwiw, here is one of my vector fields I have in mind:
> 
> https://youtu.be/YsAkm0VlCsw

Some music to go with the animation:

https://youtu.be/wgBgwd0ekIk?t=178

;^D

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#118029

On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 12/5/2023 1:38 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>>
>>> Anybody there? ;^D
>> 
>> I'm here ... just that your questions / discussions of late have sailed
>> clear over my head :|
>
> The atomics and memory barriers? For some damn reason, I thought that 
> Bonita would flame me up pretty good just for modeling my experiment in 
> Relacy first. lol. Afaict, she seems to dislike any type of race 
> detector... ;^)

Well, most of the last couple of weeks worth of topics (not that I
really have a good handle on cpp in the first place :) ... )


-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

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#118032

Am 05.12.2023 um 22:55 schrieb Chris M. Thomasson:

> The atomics and memory barriers? For some damn reason, I thought that 
> Bonita would flame me up pretty good just for modeling my experiment
> in Relacy first. lol. Afaict, she seems to dislike any type of race 
> detector... ;^)

You's apply Relacy to a hello world.

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#118028

On 2023-12-05 at 22:22, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
> 
> Anybody there? ;^D

We are still here, but seeing almost endless threads with Bonita doesn't 
inspire me to respond to those subjects.

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#118030

On 12/5/2023 2:24 PM, Bo Persson wrote:
> On 2023-12-05 at 22:22, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>
>> Anybody there? ;^D
> 
> We are still here, but seeing almost endless threads with Bonita doesn't 
> inspire me to respond to those subjects.
> 
> 

Touche! Although, ivvho, some fairly interesting discussions can spark 
from some of those subjects...

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#118031

On 06/12/2023 00:24, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 12/5/2023 2:24 PM, Bo Persson wrote:
>> On 2023-12-05 at 22:22, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>>
>>> Anybody there? ;^D
>>
>> We are still here, but seeing almost endless threads with Bonita 
>> doesn't inspire me to respond to those subjects.
>>
>>
> 
> Touche! Although, ivvho, some fairly interesting discussions can spark 
> from some of those subjects...

Agreed - there have been a few interesting topics, and they can be 
inspired by many things.  (Or at least interesting to some people - not 
everyone is interested in the same things.)

But these ridiculous pantomime arguments between you and Bonita put 
people off, and I for one end up simply marking the threads as "ignored" 
sometimes.

I suggest you have two rules here (you and Bonita) :

1. It's okay to post a reply to your own post, adding new information or 
a correction.  But don't reply to that second post yourself - if no one 
else has posted in the thread, it's not interesting enough for the 
group.  If /you/ think it is particularly interesting, put it on a blog 
or github, and post a link and summary of the information or code.

2. Take a hint from the chess world.  If the posting order in a thread 
branch is A, B, A, B, A, B, then it's a draw, and you should both drop 
that branch to stop boring everyone else.

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#118034

On 12/5/2023 11:50 PM, David Brown wrote:
> On 06/12/2023 00:24, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>> On 12/5/2023 2:24 PM, Bo Persson wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-05 at 22:22, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>>>
>>>> Anybody there? ;^D
>>>
>>> We are still here, but seeing almost endless threads with Bonita 
>>> doesn't inspire me to respond to those subjects.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Touche! Although, ivvho, some fairly interesting discussions can spark 
>> from some of those subjects...
> 
> Agreed - there have been a few interesting topics, and they can be 
> inspired by many things.  (Or at least interesting to some people - not 
> everyone is interested in the same things.)

So good so far...


> But these ridiculous pantomime arguments between you and Bonita put 
> people off, and I for one end up simply marking the threads as "ignored" 
> sometimes.

Well, not so good...


> I suggest you have two rules here (you and Bonita) :
> 
> 1. It's okay to post a reply to your own post, adding new information or 
> a correction.  But don't reply to that second post yourself - if no one 
> else has posted in the thread, it's not interesting enough for the 
> group.  If /you/ think it is particularly interesting, put it on a blog 
> or github, and post a link and summary of the information or code.

Offload everything into a brief description and a single link to the 
content, and let it be wrt the group. I think my experimental "work 
system" is interesting because it only uses atomic exchange. No CAS, 
XADD, ect... Also, its in pure C++11.


> 2. Take a hint from the chess world.  If the posting order in a thread 
> branch is A, B, A, B, A, B, then it's a draw, and you should both drop 
> that branch to stop boring everyone else.

For some reason this makes me think of both players moving their queens 
back and forth, forevermore. The game goes nowhere...

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#118041

On 06/12/2023 21:44, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
> On 12/5/2023 11:50 PM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 06/12/2023 00:24, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> On 12/5/2023 2:24 PM, Bo Persson wrote:
>>>> On 2023-12-05 at 22:22, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

> 
>> I suggest you have two rules here (you and Bonita) :
>>
>> 1. It's okay to post a reply to your own post, adding new information 
>> or a correction.  But don't reply to that second post yourself - if no 
>> one else has posted in the thread, it's not interesting enough for the 
>> group.  If /you/ think it is particularly interesting, put it on a 
>> blog or github, and post a link and summary of the information or code.
> 
> Offload everything into a brief description and a single link to the 
> content, and let it be wrt the group. I think my experimental "work 
> system" is interesting because it only uses atomic exchange. No CAS, 
> XADD, ect... Also, its in pure C++11.

I agree that there is a lot of interesting stuff buried there somewhere. 
  But I don't think posting in a public group is the best way when it's 
still just ideas going around in your head.  You need something a bit 
more concrete - either something new to show people, or questions to 
ask, in order to capture interest.  "I'm thinking about this... or 
that... or maybe this..." doesn't make as good a thread.

On the other side, big lumps of code are also not so good in threads as 
they are too much - I believe (and I'm extrapolating a lot here from 
myself, so I could be wildly wrong) that posts that are too big will 
simply be glossed over.  Posting a link to a separate page/project/blog 
and adding a summary in the post will make it easier for those 
interested to study the matter when they have time.  Discussion posts 
are viewed as too fleeting for that.

But don't stop posting, whatever you do!

> 
> 
>> 2. Take a hint from the chess world.  If the posting order in a thread 
>> branch is A, B, A, B, A, B, then it's a draw, and you should both drop 
>> that branch to stop boring everyone else.
> 
> For some reason this makes me think of both players moving their queens 
> back and forth, forevermore. The game goes nowhere...

That's exactly the image I was going for!

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#118035

On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:
> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.

I think that most long-time users of C++ are put off by all the crap
that has gone into making it even more insanely bloated.

And that's nearly the only kind of user you're going to get
in a Usenet comp.* newsgroup.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
NOTE: If you use Google Groups, I don't see you, unless you're whitelisted.

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#118037

On 12/6/2023 2:42 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
> 
> I think that most long-time users of C++ are put off by all the crap
> that has gone into making it even more insanely bloated.
> 
> And that's nearly the only kind of user you're going to get
> in a Usenet comp.* newsgroup.
> 

Well, I hope my activity here (partially wrt my "hyperactive" 
interactions with Bonita) did not chase people away to a point where 
they say, C++ can flush itself down a toilet filled with all sorts of crap!

Fwiw, I am working on porting my xchg work system experiment from Relacy 
to pure C++11. I think it should be, on topic? Right? Or perhaps, should 
I offload it to my website and/or comp.programming.threads?

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#118044

On 2023-12-07, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 06/12/2023 23:42, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>> 
>> I think that most long-time users of C++ are put off by all the crap
>> that has gone into making it even more insanely bloated.
>> 
>
> How does this "crap" affect your coding?  Maybe, for example, you don't 
> like fold expressions and parameter packs from newer C++ standards.  If 
> you don't use them, however, how do they affect you?  The usual answer 
> is having to deal with other people's code that use the new features, 
> but is it really a common problem in practice?

I want to work in a team where everyone knows 95% of the language
and other tools we are using.  Not everyone knowing a different 10%:
like a room full of blind people groping different parts of an elephant.

I can't even meaningfully discuss C++ any more. Even if I made it a good
chunk of a part time job to study it, I'd have to find someone else who
does same.

(Why am I here? Due to some cross-posted thread that wasn't about C++.)

> I usually find that with each new C++ standard, there are some features 
> I like, and some that I don't much like or are very unlikely to use. 
> And there are always some that are nice ideas, but ugly or complicated 
> in practice - most often due to backwards compatibility with the 
> existing language (or C).

I can get shit done in nothing but C++98. Or C for that matter.

Newer C++ features are no longer about getting shit done but basically
envy of some higher level languages. I sense that C++ is in kind of
panic that the language won't attract new, younger programmers if it
doesn't become like Scala, Haskell, Python, or whatever.

None of that helps me.

It's very similar to when businesses chase new customers with
incentives, and take for granted their existing customers.

>> And that's nearly the only kind of user you're going to get
>> in a Usenet comp.* newsgroup.
>
> Well, you'll mainly get "long-time users" here, but I don't know if it's 
> fair to say that most are put off by "crap" and "bloat".  (I also don't 
> know that it's /not/ fair to say that.  I don't believe we have a basis 
> for judging it.)

There is also survivorship bias; you don't see people who are not here
any more.

Where is good old Andrew Koenig? According to Google Groups search, he
last posted here almost exactly ten years ago (responding to a "C++ ==
Gagware" thread, on the same topic we are in now).

Scott Meyers lost interest in C++ in 2016.

Why would I stay interested in C++ if even die hard Scott Meyers won't
touch it any more?

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
NOTE: If you use Google Groups, I don't see you, unless you're whitelisted.

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#118045

On 08/12/2023 03:28, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2023-12-07, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> On 06/12/2023 23:42, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>> On 2023-12-05, Chris M. Thomasson <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Humm. It seems as if this group has gone quite "dark" on my end.
>>>
>>> I think that most long-time users of C++ are put off by all the crap
>>> that has gone into making it even more insanely bloated.
>>>
>>
>> How does this "crap" affect your coding?  Maybe, for example, you don't
>> like fold expressions and parameter packs from newer C++ standards.  If
>> you don't use them, however, how do they affect you?  The usual answer
>> is having to deal with other people's code that use the new features,
>> but is it really a common problem in practice?
> 
> I want to work in a team where everyone knows 95% of the language
> and other tools we are using.  Not everyone knowing a different 10%:
> like a room full of blind people groping different parts of an elephant.
> 

For some projects and teams, it works best if everyone understands 
almost all of what everyone else is doing.  In other projects and teams, 
specialisation is the key to efficiency and it is enough if there are 
perhaps just one or two people able to understand some parts of the 
whole.  You don't have to be capable of writing a class template like 
std::variant<> in order to make use of it.

But if a more cohesive team with a strong overlap is what works best for 
you and your projects, great.  Define a subset of C++ that suits your 
needs, and stick to it - expanding it only after you all make a point of 
learning the new feature.  Maybe your selection is made based on a 
particular older C++ standard, or maybe it is based on particular 
features, standard library headers, or other classification.  That's all 
fine and sensible.  I think most projects and teams do this to at least 
some extent.

But I don't see how additional features in C++ bother you.  If you have 
decided that C++17 is the standard you use, what's the problem if C++26 
gains features you don't want?


> I can't even meaningfully discuss C++ any more. Even if I made it a good
> chunk of a part time job to study it, I'd have to find someone else who
> does same.

It's normal to have interests or knowledge that is not shared by those 
around you.  Even when it is job related, it is normal for each person 
to know some things far better than the others around them.  I know far 
more about modern cpu design than anyone else in my department of 
embedded programmers and electronics engineers.  I doubt if I could have 
a particularly meaningful conversation with any of them about it, even 
in connection with the cpu cores we use every day - but I don't blame 
ARM for making more advanced devices!

> 
> (Why am I here? Due to some cross-posted thread that wasn't about C++.)
> 
>> I usually find that with each new C++ standard, there are some features
>> I like, and some that I don't much like or are very unlikely to use.
>> And there are always some that are nice ideas, but ugly or complicated
>> in practice - most often due to backwards compatibility with the
>> existing language (or C).
> 
> I can get shit done in nothing but C++98. Or C for that matter.

Sure - once a language is Turing complete, you don't /need/ anything 
more.  But it might make it easier or more efficient to write good code. 
  (And it might be more fun!)

> 
> Newer C++ features are no longer about getting shit done but basically
> envy of some higher level languages. 

I don't see that at all.  I can see C++ taking inspiration from other 
languages, but that's a different matter.

> I sense that C++ is in kind of
> panic that the language won't attract new, younger programmers if it
> doesn't become like Scala, Haskell, Python, or whatever.
> 

Even if we assume that is true, is it a bad thing?  C++98 has not gone 
away.  But if no one from the next generation uses C++, it /will/ fade 
away.  Do you think the people who make their living from C++ - working 
to improve and enhance it, developing new libraries and features, 
writing books, making compilers, teaching it - do you think they should 
all decide that some people don't want to learn anything more, they 
should call it a day and collectively retire or pick a different language?

> None of that helps me.
> 

I'm sorry, but this all comes across as sulky and egoistic.  I doesn't 
help /me/ - therefore it's bad, it's crap, it's bloated, it's insane. 
/I/ am not happy, therefore "most long-term users of C++" are not happy.

We all have parts of C++ that we like, and parts that we use (and the 
more these overlap, the happier we are).  And there will always be parts 
that we don't like, and that we don't use.  C++ is used in a vast array 
of different ways and for different tasks.  And as it continues to be 
used in other areas, and as these needs change, habits change, 
preferences change, the language and library grow.  As compiler 
technology improves and computers become more powerful, the language 
changes and more is expected of it.

And the more this goes on, the larger a proportion of the language and 
library any given person will not know about, and will not use.

When I first started programming, using BASIC on home computers as a 
kid, I knew every statement and every function supported by the 
language.  When I first worked on embedded systems, I knew every opcode 
of the microcontroller's core, and the details of every peripheral.  On 
many systems, every instruction the core executed was written by me. 
The world has changed since then.  My systems use SDK's from 
manufacturers, third-party libraries, code written by colleagues and 
customers.  Things change - like it or not.

> It's very similar to when businesses chase new customers with
> incentives, and take for granted their existing customers.
> 

No, it is not.

No one is taking your current C++ from you.  You still get exactly the 
same language as you've always used.

>>> And that's nearly the only kind of user you're going to get
>>> in a Usenet comp.* newsgroup.
>>
>> Well, you'll mainly get "long-time users" here, but I don't know if it's
>> fair to say that most are put off by "crap" and "bloat".  (I also don't
>> know that it's /not/ fair to say that.  I don't believe we have a basis
>> for judging it.)
> 
> There is also survivorship bias; you don't see people who are not here
> any more.
> 

True.

> Where is good old Andrew Koenig? According to Google Groups search, he
> last posted here almost exactly ten years ago (responding to a "C++ ==
> Gagware" thread, on the same topic we are in now).

And according to Wikipedia, he is 71.  I'm guessing he is retired now.

> 
> Scott Meyers lost interest in C++ in 2016.

No, he "retired" from C++ in 2015.  After working for C++ (not just 
working /in/ C++) for 25 years, he decided it was time to move on and 
let others take over.  Fair enough.

<http://scottmeyers.blogspot.com/2015/12/good-to-go.html>

People working on big projects for a long time, sometimes move on. 
Maybe they outgrew the project.  Maybe the project outgrew them.  Maybe 
they got old, or bored, or found other interests.  Maybe they just 
wanted a break or a change.

You can't possibly think that picking a couple of well-known C++ figures 
who stopped writing C++ books justifies claiming that "most long-time 
users of C++ are put off by all the crap" ?

> 
> Why would I stay interested in C++ if even die hard Scott Meyers won't
> touch it any more?
> 

Again, you are joking, right?  Should /you/ stop being interested in 
something just because someone else stops being interested in the 
subject?  Did you suddenly stop being interested in C when Dennis 
Ritchie died?


I can fully understand not liking many of the latest features of C++, or 
not feeling they are useful to your own needs.  But I don't comprehend 
how that stops you liking or using the language, or how you think that 
makes the language bad for anyone else.

If you'd be interested in a thread about particular new features that 
people may or may not like, then I think that could be helpful and 
productive.

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#118048

On 2023-12-08, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> But I don't see how additional features in C++ bother you.  If you have 
> decided that C++17 is the standard you use, what's the problem if C++26 
> gains features you don't want?

If you don't learn those features, you no longer know C++. You're a
C++17 has-been.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca
NOTE: If you use Google Groups, I don't see you, unless you're whitelisted.

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#118049

On 12/8/2023 2:41 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2023-12-08, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> But I don't see how additional features in C++ bother you.  If you have
>> decided that C++17 is the standard you use, what's the problem if C++26
>> gains features you don't want?
> 
> If you don't learn those features, you no longer know C++. You're a
> C++17 has-been.
> 

Humm... Depends on your team and what the requirements are, in a sense? 
Humm...

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#118054

On 08/12/2023 23:41, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2023-12-08, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> But I don't see how additional features in C++ bother you.  If you have
>> decided that C++17 is the standard you use, what's the problem if C++26
>> gains features you don't want?
> 
> If you don't learn those features, you no longer know C++. You're a
> C++17 has-been.
> 

I'm sorry, I can't relate to that.  That is simply not how real-world 
development is done, in my area at least (small-systems embedded 
programming).  But if you think that knowing and using all the latest 
features of the latest standards is a requirement to stay "relevant" as 
a C++ developer, then I can understand why you feel frustrated.

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