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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #72763 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-04-03 09:56 -0700 |
| Last post | 2020-04-07 10:39 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 70 — 18 participants |
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Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 09:56 -0700
Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-03 18:18 +0100
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 12:57 -0500
Re: Help needed Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2020-04-03 18:17 +0000
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 16:41 -0500
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-03 14:58 -0400
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 16:45 -0500
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 17:52 -0500
Re: Help needed Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-03 20:05 +0000
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 16:58 -0500
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 17:50 -0500
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 00:15 -0400
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-03 23:58 -0500
Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-04 18:06 +1300
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 00:35 -0500
Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-04 19:54 +1300
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 02:22 -0500
Re: Help needed Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2020-04-04 10:33 +0200
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 04:55 -0500
Re: Help needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 13:02 +0200
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 07:15 -0500
Re: Help needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 16:49 +0200
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:10 -0500
Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-05 16:31 +0100
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 11:37 -0500
Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 14:19 +0200
Re: Help needed David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-04-04 16:57 +0200
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 10:51 -0400
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 10:44 -0400
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:06 -0500
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-05 11:04 -0400
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 11:31 -0500
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-05 16:59 -0400
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 21:38 -0500
Re: Help needed "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 13:51 +0200
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 08:33 -0500
Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-05 07:35 +1200
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:19 -0500
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-05 11:27 -0400
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 22:27 -0400
Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-04 14:50 +0100
Re: Help needed James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-04 10:27 -0400
Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-05 07:37 +1200
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 03:45 -0500
Re: Help needed Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-04 09:02 +0300
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 01:20 -0500
Re: Help needed Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-04-04 19:43 +1300
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 02:10 -0500
Re: Help needed Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 01:58 -0700
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 05:04 -0500
Re: Help needed Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-04 14:37 +0300
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-04 07:25 -0500
Re: Help needed Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-04-04 17:39 +0300
Re: Help needed Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2020-04-05 04:02 -0500
Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 19:35 +0200
Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-03 20:01 +0200
Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 16:16 +0200
Re: Help needed Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-04-04 18:58 +0200
Re: Help needed Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2020-04-03 22:01 +0200
Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-03 21:05 +0100
Re: Help needed Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2020-04-04 02:10 +0200
Re: Help needed Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-04 08:19 +0000
Re: Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:56 -0700
Re: Help needed Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-04-04 01:14 +0100
Re: Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 02:49 -0700
Re: Help needed Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2020-04-04 16:30 -0400
Re: Help needed Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2020-04-05 05:58 +0100
Re: Help needed Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> - 2020-04-05 03:21 -0700
Re: Help needed Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2020-04-07 06:33 +0000
Re: Help needed Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-04-07 10:39 +0000
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| From | Gerry Wolff <gerrywolff65@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 09:56 -0700 |
| Subject | Help needed |
| Message-ID | <66b94985-7db1-41e1-98f7-e509c5a0a142@googlegroups.com> |
In case of doubt, here is the message I previously posted on alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++. I have a general problem in developing C++ programs, and I would be glad of help. Let me explain: * In about 2004 to 2005, I developed a largish program with no significant problems using C++ in MS Visual Studio. * Now I want to develop the program some more but I find that C++ in MS Visual Studio is very much more complicated than it was before, and very difficult to use. Many ‘errors’ get flagged in a program that was working well and I am finding it very difficult to clear them. * To be more precise, I need help with two programs: the original program and a much simpler program that I need for the new project. That second program is causing me problems as well. * It would be very helpful if someone with relevant skills could help get things working again. If you know of a better IDE, please let me know. * It would be helpful but not essential if we were both in the same time zone, or close. I’m in the UK in the GMT time zone (latitude 0). * This project is part of a long-time research programme, and I would of course give credit for help with programming in papers arising from the new research. * Information about the research program may be seen on http://www.cognitionresearch.org/sp.htm, and more briefly on http://www.cognitionresearch.org/extras/key_publications.htm. * If you would be willing to help, please get in touch via jgw@cognitionresearch.org. Please say something briefly about your experience with Visual C++, and the time you would have available to work on what I’ve described. Many thanks! Gerry Wolff -- Dr J. Gerard Wolff PhD CEng MIEEE MBCS CognitionResearch.org jgw@cognitionresearch.org; +44 (0) 1248 712962, +44 (0) 7746 290775; Twitter: @gerrywolff65, Skype: gerry.wolff; Web: www.cognitionresearch.org; CognitionResearch.org, Menai Bridge, UK.
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| From | Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 18:18 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <pdKhG.18534$yF4.18449@fx09.ams1> |
| In reply to | #72763 |
On 03/04/2020 17:56, Gerry Wolff wrote: > In case of doubt, here is the message I previously posted on alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++. > > I have a general problem in developing C++ programs, and I would be glad of help. Let me explain: > > * In about 2004 to 2005, I developed a largish program with no significant problems using C++ in MS Visual Studio. > > * Now I want to develop the program some more but I find that C++ in MS Visual Studio is very much more complicated than it was before, and very difficult to use. Many ‘errors’ get flagged in a program that was working well and I am finding it very difficult to clear them. > > * To be more precise, I need help with two programs: the original program and a much simpler program that I need for the new project. That second program is causing me problems as well. > > * It would be very helpful if someone with relevant skills could help get things working again. If you know of a better IDE, please let me know. > > * It would be helpful but not essential if we were both in the same time zone, or close. I’m in the UK in the GMT time zone (latitude 0). > > * This project is part of a long-time research programme, and I would of course give credit for help with programming in papers arising from the new research. > > * Information about the research program may be seen on http://www.cognitionresearch.org/sp.htm, and more briefly on http://www.cognitionresearch.org/extras/key_publications.htm. > > * If you would be willing to help, please get in touch via jgw@cognitionresearch.org. Please say something briefly about your experience with Visual C++, and the time you would have available to work on what I’ve described. > > Many thanks! Why can't you do it yourself? Afraid of learning new things? As you fix the errors you will learn modern C++: something that won't happen if you get someone else to do it. /Flibble -- "Snakes didn't evolve, instead talking snakes with legs changed into snakes." - Rick C. Hodgin “You won’t burn in hell. But be nice anyway.” – Ricky Gervais “I see Atheists are fighting and killing each other again, over who doesn’t believe in any God the most. Oh, no..wait.. that never happens.” – Ricky Gervais "Suppose it's all true, and you walk up to the pearly gates, and are confronted by God," Byrne asked on his show The Meaning of Life. "What will Stephen Fry say to him, her, or it?" "I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about?" Fry replied. "How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil." "Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That's what I would say."
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 12:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8eu8f.e3c.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72764 |
Mr Flibble wrote: > Gerry Wolff wrote: > > > > In case of doubt, here is the message I previously posted on > > alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++. > > > > I have a general problem in developing C++ programs, and I would be > > glad of help. Let me explain: > > > > * In about 2004 to 2005, I developed a largish program with no > > significant problems using C++ in MS Visual Studio. > > > > * Now I want to develop the program some more but I find that C++ > > in MS Visual Studio is very much more complicated than it was > > before, and very difficult to use. Many "errors" get flagged in > > a program that was working well and I am finding it very difficult > > to clear them. Versionitis; a virus that emerged out of the murk of Micro$soft. > > * To be more precise, I need help with two programs: the original > > program and a much simpler program that I need for the new project. > > That second program is causing me problems as well. > > > > * It would be very helpful if someone with relevant skills could > > help get things working again. If you know of a better IDE, please > > let me know. What you need is a stable language. Or perhaps... downgrade to the version you know, and stay there. A better system would help too, though if your projects need the M$ environment, you're pretty much locked in. > > * It would be helpful but not essential if we were both in the same > > time zone, or close. I'm in the UK in the GMT time zone (latitude 0). > > > > * This project is part of a long-time research programme, and I would > > of course give credit for help with programming in papers arising > > from the new research. > > > > * Information about the research program may be seen on > > http://www.cognitionresearch.org/sp.htm, and more briefly > > on http://www.cognitionresearch.org/extras/key_publications.htm. > > > > * If you would be willing to help, please get in touch via > > jgw@cognitionresearch.org. Please say something briefly about > > your experience with Visual C++, and the time you would have > > available to work on what I???ve described. > > Why can't you do it yourself? Why assume a lack of ability? > Afraid of learning new things? As you > fix the errors you will learn modern C++: C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of maintenance nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but I've had to make so many fatuous changes that I'm now actively looking for languages to port them to. ----snip----
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| From | Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 18:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <m5LhG.304445$tV7.98137@fx04.am4> |
| In reply to | #72766 |
On 2020-04-03, Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote: > > C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of maintenance > nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but I've had to make so > many fatuous changes that I'm now actively looking for languages to > port them to. Which one? C++ is backward compatible so far I see. > > ----snip---- Perhaps M$ compiler makes problems, but that is because that is M$... -- press any key to continue or any other to quit... U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 16:41 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8fbbp.eb4.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72768 |
Melzzzzz wrote: > On 2020-04-03, Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> wrote: >> >> C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of maintenance >> nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but I've had to make so >> many fatuous changes that I'm now actively looking for languages to >> port them to. > > Which one? C++ is backward compatible so far I see. GCC. C++ is *not* backwards compatible. > Perhaps M$ compiler makes problems, but that is because that is M$... That's a given, but in this case an element of the M$ disease has been incorporated into C++. Thay have, and have had for decades now, undue influence with standards committees.
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 14:58 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <r6810d$ocg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #72766 |
On 4/3/20 1:57 PM, Ned Latham wrote: > Mr Flibble wrote: >> Gerry Wolff wrote: ... >>> * Now I want to develop the program some more but I find that C++ >>> in MS Visual Studio is very much more complicated than it was >>> before, and very difficult to use. Many "errors" get flagged in >>> a program that was working well and I am finding it very difficult >>> to clear them. > > Versionitis; a virus that emerged out of the murk of Micro$soft. Your historical view is a bit short-sighted. Versionitis predates Microsoft. It even predates computers - people were coming out with new versions of things too fast for the users to keep up with them even before computers became available to speed up the process. ... >> Why can't you do it yourself? > > Why assume a lack of ability? "... I am finding it very difficult ..." is a bit of a clue.
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 16:45 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8fbj5.eb4.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72769 |
James Kuyper wrote: > Ned Latham wrote: > > Gerry Wolff wrote: > ... > > > * Now I want to develop the program some more but I find that C++ > > > in MS Visual Studio is very much more complicated than it was > > > before, and very difficult to use. Many "errors" get flagged in > > > a program that was working well and I am finding it very difficult > > > to clear them. > > > > Versionitis; a virus that emerged out of the murk of Micro$soft. > > Your historical view is a bit short-sighted. Versionitis predates > Microsoft. Wrong. That was a different phenomenon called "planned obsolenence". ----snip----
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 17:52 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8ffgr.eem.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72774 |
Ned Latham wrote: > James Kuyper wrote: > > Ned Latham wrote: > > > Gerry Wolff wrote: > > ... > > > > * Now I want to develop the program some more but I find that C++ > > > > in MS Visual Studio is very much more complicated than it was > > > > before, and very difficult to use. Many "errors" get flagged in > > > > a program that was working well and I am finding it very difficult > > > > to clear them. > > > > > > Versionitis; a virus that emerged out of the murk of Micro$soft. > > > > Your historical view is a bit short-sighted. Versionitis predates > > Microsoft. > > Wrong. That was a different phenomenon called "planned obsolenence". Sorry. "obsolescence"
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| From | Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 20:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8f5nu.1r7q.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> |
| In reply to | #72766 |
On Fri, 2020-04-03, Ned Latham wrote: ... > C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of maintenance > nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but I've had to make so > many fatuous changes that I'm now actively looking for languages to > port them to. Which changes would that be? Between, say a decent version two decades ago (C++98) and a well-supported one today (C++11)? I can imagine that there have been painful changes to /Visual Studio/ during these decades, but they would be about deviations from the standard, extensions to the language, and bugs it used to allow. GCC had that last kind, too. /Jorgen -- // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . . \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 16:58 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8fcd2.eb4.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72772 |
Jorgen Grahn wrote: > Ned Latham wrote: > ... > > C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of maintenance > > nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but I've had to make so > > many fatuous changes that I'm now actively looking for languages to > > port them to. > > Which changes would that be? Between, say a decent version two > decades ago (C++98) and a well-supported one today (C++11)? Exception throwing: once an option, now the default. "namespace": once an option, now a requirement. I suppose I should confess that the bugs in C(++) are also part of my problem with C++. They are the defective string definition in C, and the defective post-increment semenatic of C++. ----snip----
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 17:50 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8ffdh.eem.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72775 |
Ned Latham wrote: > Jorgen Grahn wrote: > > Ned Latham wrote: > > ... > > > C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of > > > maintenance nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but > > > I've had to make so many fatuous changes that I'm now actively > > > looking for languages to port them to. > > > > Which changes would that be? Between, say a decent version two > > decades ago (C++98) and a well-supported one today (C++11)? > > Exception throwing: once an option, now the default. > "namespace": once an option, now a requirement. > > I suppose I should confess that the bugs in C(++) are also part of my > problem with C++. They are the defective string definition in C, and > the defective post-increment semenatic of C++. Sorry. "semantic".
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 00:15 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <r691l0$idd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #72775 |
On 4/3/20 5:58 PM, Ned Latham wrote: > Jorgen Grahn wrote: >> Ned Latham wrote: >> ... >>> C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of maintenance >>> nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but I've had to make so >>> many fatuous changes that I'm now actively looking for languages to >>> port them to. >> >> Which changes would that be? Between, say a decent version two >> decades ago (C++98) and a well-supported one today (C++11)? > > Exception throwing: once an option, now the default. > "namespace": once an option, now a requirement. Could you identify the specific changes in the text of the standard that you're referring to, and when they happened? I'm not sure what those descriptions mean - every interpretation I've been able to come up with is something that, as far as I know, either has never been true, or has always been true - either way, there wasn't a change. However, I'm not yet fully up-to-date on anything more recent than C++98. I'm fairly up-to-date on C++2003, and understand many of the more recently added features well enough to make use of them. > I suppose I should confess that the bugs in C(++) are also part of my > problem with C++. They are the defective string definition in C, and > the defective post-increment semenatic of C++. Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s post-increment semantic?
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-03 23:58 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8g4vd.ep1.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72780 |
James Kuyper wrote: > Ned Latham wrote: > > Jorgen Grahn wrote: > > > Ned Latham wrote: > > > ... > > > > C++ has become a moving target and a profligate producer of > > > > maintenance nightmares. My own projects are okay so far, but > > > > I've had to make so many fatuous changes that I'm now actively > > > > looking for languages to port them to. > > > > > > Which changes would that be? Between, say a decent version two > > > decades ago (C++98) and a well-supported one today (C++11)? > > > > Exception throwing: once an option, now the default. > > "namespace": once an option, now a requirement. > > Could you identify the specific changes in the text of the standard that > you're referring to, and when they happened? No. I don't geek around with committee standards. The only C++ standard that I know is Stroustrup's: "Programming in C++", vol 3, 1997. Exception throwing was optional back then, which suits me fine, because one of my projects is a library, and that is no place for exceptions (frankly, I think they encourage sloppy programming, and I eschew them at all times, not just in libraries). At some point, which I haven't reached yet, it became the default. When I reach that point, I'll be dropping back to the previous compiler. Namespace wasn't on the curriculum when I started learning C++. I don't know when it was introduced, but in his book (vol 3) Stroustrup seems to imply that it's a new thing. He discusses, for example, "transitioning" to it. Now, it seems, its use is compulsory. I will not tolerate that either. > I'm not sure what those > descriptions mean - every interpretation I've been able to come up with > is something that, as far as I know, either has never been true, or has > always been true - either way, there wasn't a change. However, I'm not > yet fully up-to-date on anything more recent than C++98. I'm fairly > up-to-date on C++2003, and understand many of the more recently added > features well enough to make use of them. I'd rather put that learning curve into designing and implementing a well-thought-out language. > > I suppose I should confess that the bugs in C(++) are also part of my > > problem with C++. They are the defective string definition in C, and > > the defective post-increment semenatic of C++. > > Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s > post-increment semantic? It doesn't work with non-native types. Post-decrement too, of course.
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 18:06 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <heqiu1FfrroU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #72781 |
On 04/04/2020 17:58, Ned Latham wrote: > James Kuyper wrote: >> >> Could you identify the specific changes in the text of the standard that >> you're referring to, and when they happened? > > No. I don't geek around with committee standards. The only C++ standard > that I know is Stroustrup's: "Programming in C++", vol 3, 1997. > > Exception throwing was optional back then, which suits me fine, because > one of my projects is a library, and that is no place for exceptions > (frankly, I think they encourage sloppy programming, and I eschew them > at all times, not just in libraries). At some point, which I haven't > reached yet, it became the default. When I reach that point, I'll be > dropping back to the previous compiler. Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding standards) don't permit exceptions. > Namespace wasn't on the curriculum when I started learning C++. > I don't know when it was introduced, but in his book (vol 3) Stroustrup > seems to imply that it's a new thing. He discusses, for example, > "transitioning" to it. Namespaces where introduced in the origin 1998 C++ standard, the one described in Stroustrup's third edition. > Now, it seems, its use is compulsory. Says who? >> Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s >> post-increment semantic? > > It doesn't work with non-native types. > Post-decrement too, of course. How so? -- Ian.
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 00:35 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8g75k.eq7.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72782 |
Ian Collins wrote: > Ned Latham wrote: > > James Kuyper wrote: > > > > > > Could you identify the specific changes in the text of the standard that > > > you're referring to, and when they happened? > > > > No. I don't geek around with committee standards. The only C++ standard > > that I know is Stroustrup's: "Programming in C++", vol 3, 1997. > > > > Exception throwing was optional back then, which suits me fine, because > > one of my projects is a library, and that is no place for exceptions > > (frankly, I think they encourage sloppy programming, and I eschew them > > at all times, not just in libraries). At some point, which I haven't > > reached yet, it became the default. When I reach that point, I'll be > > dropping back to the previous compiler. > > Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding > standards) don't permit exceptions. You use cout, you risk an exception. How do they prevent them from occurring? > > Namespace wasn't on the curriculum when I started learning C++. > > I don't know when it was introduced, but in his book (vol 3) Stroustrup > > seems to imply that it's a new thing. He discusses, for example, > > "transitioning" to it. > > Namespaces where introduced in the origin 1998 C++ standard, the one > described in Stroustrup's third edition. > > > Now, it seems, its use is compulsory. > > Says who? I do. > > > Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s > > > post-increment semantic? > > > > It doesn't work with non-native types. > > Post-decrement too, of course. > > How so? I just told you. It doesn't work.
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| From | Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 19:54 +1300 |
| Message-ID | <heqp9pFfrroU3@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #72783 |
On 04/04/2020 18:35, Ned Latham wrote: > Ian Collins wrote: >> Ned Latham wrote: >>> James Kuyper wrote: >>>> >>>> Could you identify the specific changes in the text of the standard that >>>> you're referring to, and when they happened? >>> >>> No. I don't geek around with committee standards. The only C++ standard >>> that I know is Stroustrup's: "Programming in C++", vol 3, 1997. >>> >>> Exception throwing was optional back then, which suits me fine, because >>> one of my projects is a library, and that is no place for exceptions >>> (frankly, I think they encourage sloppy programming, and I eschew them >>> at all times, not just in libraries). At some point, which I haven't >>> reached yet, it became the default. When I reach that point, I'll be >>> dropping back to the previous compiler. >> >> Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding >> standards) don't permit exceptions. > > You use cout, you risk an exception. Do you? > How do they prevent them from occurring? Compile with exceptions disabled. >>> Namespace wasn't on the curriculum when I started learning C++. >>> I don't know when it was introduced, but in his book (vol 3) Stroustrup >>> seems to imply that it's a new thing. He discusses, for example, >>> "transitioning" to it. >> >> Namespaces where introduced in the origin 1998 C++ standard, the one >> described in Stroustrup's third edition. >> >>> Now, it seems, its use is compulsory. >> >> Says who? > > I do. Ah, so it isn't "compulsory". Good to know. >>>> Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s >>>> post-increment semantic? >>> >>> It doesn't work with non-native types. >>> Post-decrement too, of course. >> >> How so? > > I just told you. It doesn't work. Yeah right, very helpful. -- Ian.
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 02:22 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8gddq.evi.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72787 |
Ian Collins wrote: > Ned Latham wrote: > > Ian Collins wrote: > > > Ned Latham wrote: ----snip---- > > > Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding > > > standards) don't permit exceptions. > > > > You use cout, you risk an exception. > > Do you? You wanna tell me how you don't? > > How do they prevent them from occurring? > > Compile with exceptions disabled. How? ----snip---- > > > > I don't know when it was introduced, but in his book (vol 3) Stroustrup > > > > seems to imply that it's a new thing. He discusses, for example, > > > > "transitioning" to it. > > > > > > Namespaces where introduced in the origin 1998 C++ standard, the one > > > described in Stroustrup's third edition. > > > > > > > Now, it seems, its use is compulsory. > > > > > > Says who? > > > > I do. > > Ah, so it isn't "compulsory". Good to know. What part of "it seems" did you fail to understand? > > > > > Could you identify what you consider to be defective about C++'s > > > > > post-increment semantic? > > > > > > > > It doesn't work with non-native types. > > > > Post-decrement too, of course. > > > > > > How so? > > > > I just told you. It doesn't work. > > Yeah right, very helpful. Get a clue. Increment has only one action, and I didn't mention pre-increment. That leaves only one possibility.
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| From | Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 10:33 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <heqv38F2561U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #72789 |
On 2020-04-04 at 09:22, Ned Latham wrote:
> Ian Collins wrote:
>> Ned Latham wrote:
>>> Ian Collins wrote:
>>>> Ned Latham wrote:
>
> ----snip----
>
>>>> Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding
>>>> standards) don't permit exceptions.
>>>
>>> You use cout, you risk an exception.
>>
>> Do you?
>
> You wanna tell me how you don't?
>
cout will only throw those exceptions you have explicitly enabled by
calling cout.exceptions(exception_mask). So just don't.
https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/io/basic_ios/exceptions
Bo Persson
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| From | Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 04:55 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <slrnr8gmd4.f49.nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> |
| In reply to | #72791 |
Bo Persson wrote: > Ned Latham wrote: > > Ian Collins wrote: > > > Ned Latham wrote: > > > > Ian Collins wrote: > > > > ----snip---- > > > > > > > Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding > > > > > standards) don't permit exceptions. > > > > > > > > You use cout, you risk an exception. > > > > > > Do you? > > > > You wanna tell me how you don't? > > cout will only throw those exceptions you have explicitly enabled by > calling cout.exceptions(exception_mask). So just don't. I don't. But that's because I don't use *any* C++ libraries. > https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/io/basic_ios/exceptions Really? An incomplete section? It shows how to set an exception mask. There's nothing there about *disabling* exceptions. There's nothing there to say that they're disbled without explicit enablement. Similar with with the gcc man page. Plenty of options for exception types, nothing about disabling them.
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-04-04 13:02 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <r69pgm$1um$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #72793 |
On 04/04/2020 11:55, Ned Latham wrote: > Bo Persson wrote: >> Ned Latham wrote: >>> Ian Collins wrote: >>>> Ned Latham wrote: >>>>> Ian Collins wrote: >>> >>> ----snip---- >>> >>>>>> Default, where? May contemporary projects (and Google's coding >>>>>> standards) don't permit exceptions. >>>>> >>>>> You use cout, you risk an exception. >>>> >>>> Do you? >>> >>> You wanna tell me how you don't? >> >> cout will only throw those exceptions you have explicitly enabled by >> calling cout.exceptions(exception_mask). So just don't. > > I don't. But that's because I don't use *any* C++ libraries. > >> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/io/basic_ios/exceptions > > Really? An incomplete section? > > It shows how to set an exception mask. There's nothing there about > *disabling* exceptions. There's nothing there to say that they're > disbled without explicit enablement. > > Similar with with the gcc man page. Plenty of options for exception > types, nothing about disabling them. > <https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Code-Gen-Options.html#index-fexceptions> Use "-fno-exceptions", and gcc will compile your C++ code as though the language did not have exception support. It is a commonly used feature - exceptions are good for some kinds of programming, less good for other kinds.
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