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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #88625 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2023-01-19 15:42 +0100 |
| Last post | 2023-01-19 16:48 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 92 — 24 participants |
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Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2023-01-19 15:42 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-19 16:18 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-19 16:32 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-19 19:22 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-19 20:00 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-20 15:48 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.com> - 2023-01-25 13:00 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-25 14:52 -0500
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-01-25 14:13 -0800
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 00:03 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set ikook <iKook@GMAIL.COM> - 2023-01-25 23:17 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-01-25 23:37 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 09:19 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-26 00:09 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-25 23:55 -0500
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-01-19 08:40 -0800
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set red floyd <no.spam.here@its.invalid> - 2023-01-19 08:42 -0800
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-19 20:10 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-19 20:17 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-20 15:49 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-20 17:21 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-21 15:50 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-20 11:35 -0800
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-21 13:06 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-21 15:56 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-22 13:33 +0100
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-23 09:34 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-23 14:29 +0100
Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-23 14:21 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-23 13:03 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-23 20:06 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-23 14:46 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-23 22:00 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-24 14:20 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-01-24 15:36 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2023-01-24 08:06 -0800
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-24 18:30 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-01-24 18:50 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-24 20:36 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-01-24 19:50 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities Marc SCHAEFER <schaefer@alphanet.ch> - 2023-01-24 19:56 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-24 20:31 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2023-01-24 20:07 -0800
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-01-25 05:02 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-24 17:47 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-24 13:30 -0500
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-24 20:42 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-24 20:46 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2023-01-24 19:56 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2023-01-24 22:00 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-25 00:00 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2023-01-25 00:17 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-25 09:43 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-25 10:39 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-25 14:51 -0500
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 00:00 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-25 23:49 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 09:23 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) iKook <iKook@gmail.com> - 2023-01-26 02:27 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-25 23:55 -0500
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) iKook <iKook@gmail.com> - 2023-01-26 18:22 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 09:44 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2023-01-26 01:40 -0800
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 13:14 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) iKook <iKook@gmail.com> - 2023-01-26 18:13 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-27 22:12 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-28 13:20 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> - 2023-01-28 20:20 -0800
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-29 12:00 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-01-29 12:01 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2023-01-29 16:23 -0800
[OT] Writing IMHO Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-01-30 01:14 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> - 2023-01-25 22:58 +0000
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-26 13:10 +0100
Thunderbird Broken Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> - 2023-01-28 19:54 -0800
Re: Thunderbird Broken Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-29 12:04 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-24 20:30 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> - 2023-01-24 20:25 -0600
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2023-01-25 00:10 -0500
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-25 10:56 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> - 2023-01-28 19:28 -0800
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-29 12:36 +0100
Pluted Pup is trolling you, you blithering idiot (was: Server glitch vs other possibilities) "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-01-29 17:23 +0000
Re: Pluted Pup is trolling you, you blithering idiot (was: Server glitch vs other possibilities) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2023-01-30 08:22 +0100
Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2023-01-23 22:18 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2023-01-19 17:08 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-19 17:15 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2023-01-19 16:54 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> - 2023-01-21 13:03 -0800
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> - 2023-01-21 14:01 -0800
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-19 16:30 +0000
Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2023-01-19 16:48 +0000
Page 4 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 Next page →
| From | iKook <iKook@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-26 18:22 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <lAzAL.55706$b7Kc.43938@fx39.iad> |
| In reply to | #88852 |
On 26/01/2023 04:55, James Kuyper wrote: > Is there really any need to ask for more information? Do you have any > good reason to think David was lying about what he found? I don't have reasons to doubt anything, good or bad. I just like to confirm if this problem has propagated to other servers that I use. I use MixMin and news.us.Usenet-News.net and both looks OK to me but what worried me is that the cross-post was to some recreational books newsgroup. This, IMO, is a recipe to invite spam to a technical newsgroup such as this one.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-26 09:44 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tqtehg$13som$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88848 |
On 26/01/2023 03:27, iKook wrote: > On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote: >> >> I recommend you check these things for yourself. > > I have done it on MixMin. See below >> That might be useful for comparison. > Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims? > Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch! If you drive to the car workshop and tell them your car is making a funny noise, would you be impressed if a whole bunch of mechanics rush out and look at every other car in the car park? Then when they find the other cars make no noise, they tell you it must be a troll in your car? How is it that there are people in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet who have supposedly all this "experience and expertise", and are willing to look up messages all over the place and draw all sorts of conclusions about people, articles, and servers - and yet none of them seems willing to take a look at the server that had the glitch? I've been involved in computers a /long/ time. A rare glitch on a server does not surprise me. What /does/ surprise and frustrate me are two things. One is that so many people have been so quick to accuse and blame Bonita of all sorts of things, without any consideration for alternative explanations of events. That includes people who know her postings well, and those who had not heard of her until this thread. Neither groups have any excuse for their judgemental attitude. The other is that so many apparent experts are determined to look everywhere except where the problem lies. It apparently does not matter what details I give, what explanations I post, what guides I give to reproducing the problem so that you can see it for yourself. No, apparently the "expert" handling is to ignore all I write, deny that servers can ever have glitches, and ask for more evidence. This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/ computer, it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/ Usenet server. Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message in question. It should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it only takes one of you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't trust or believe /me/). If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking how to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-26 01:40 -0800 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <66f4cd23-80aa-4098-b081-de7291ef8025n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #88855 |
On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 10:44:48 UTC+2, David Brown wrote: > > One is that so many people have been so quick to accuse and blame Bonita > of all sorts of things, without any consideration for alternative > explanations of events. That includes people who know her postings > well, and those who had not heard of her until this thread. Neither > groups have any excuse for their judgemental attitude. > We know BM, who will happily quote whatever garbage kill-filed by many in its entirety on one hand and alter texts of actual discussion for to misrepresent others on the other hand. Usenet is indeed getting old and unreliable and that unfortunately adds more opportunities to misbehave. > The other is that so many apparent experts are determined to look > everywhere except where the problem lies. It apparently does not matter > what details I give, what explanations I post, what guides I give to > reproducing the problem so that you can see it for yourself. No, > apparently the "expert" handling is to ignore all I write, deny that > servers can ever have glitches, and ask for more evidence. > That was good, made some "experts" to look less "apparent" for me. ;-)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-26 13:14 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tqtqrl$1672l$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88856 |
On 26/01/2023 10:40, Öö Tiib wrote: > On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 10:44:48 UTC+2, David Brown wrote: >> >> One is that so many people have been so quick to accuse and blame Bonita >> of all sorts of things, without any consideration for alternative >> explanations of events. That includes people who know her postings >> well, and those who had not heard of her until this thread. Neither >> groups have any excuse for their judgemental attitude. >> > We know BM, who will happily quote whatever garbage kill-filed by many in > its entirety on one hand and alter texts of actual discussion for to misrepresent > others on the other hand. Usenet is indeed getting old and unreliable and that > unfortunately adds more opportunities to misbehave. > I don't think anyone who is familiar with Bonita thinks she is a model Usenet citizen (though she is much more willing to follow standards with suitable quotations and attributions than she used to be). And there is no doubt that quoting the entire rambling essay to top-post a single comment is bad style. But that doesn't mean it is right or fair to accuse her of things she /didn't/ do. news.eternal-september.org attributed the essay to Muttley - it was not Bonita's idea. >> The other is that so many apparent experts are determined to look >> everywhere except where the problem lies. It apparently does not matter >> what details I give, what explanations I post, what guides I give to >> reproducing the problem so that you can see it for yourself. No, >> apparently the "expert" handling is to ignore all I write, deny that >> servers can ever have glitches, and ask for more evidence. >> > That was good, made some "experts" to look less "apparent" for me. ;-)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | iKook <iKook@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-26 18:13 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <3rzAL.423613$iU59.86859@fx14.iad> |
| In reply to | #88855 |
On 26/01/2023 08:44, David Brown wrote: > > > Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch! > > I tried but you need to sign up with them. This is not I can do now. We just have to accept that servers can go wrong. AIOE is also down for the past 3 or 4 days including their main website.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-27 22:12 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <8o90219s-2046-ss05-79o5-7074678pprn0@zvaqfcevat.pbz> |
| In reply to | #88855 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thursday, 26 January 2023 09:44 +0100,
in article <tqtehg$13som$3@dont-email.me>,
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/
> computer, it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/
> Usenet server. Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message
> in question. It should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it
> only takes one of you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't
> trust or believe /me/).
> If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking
> how to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer.
Headers provide clarity and tell a story.
Since the answers are in the headers, of the article on ES, providing
them might be useful. The overview headers, from which the news
client generates a threaded article list, are a subset of the full
headers.
I am particularly interested in the Newsgroups, References and Xref
headers.
I recommend using the View/Message Source (^U), rather than
View/Headers/All.
Whereas you read code. I read headers. Without sufficient
information, either of us is likely to make errors. I know I did, in
this case.
Bonita saw the essay article appearing in comp.lang.c++ and replied. That
reply indicates she found the essay out of place and looked up the actual
source of the plagiarized, copied and pasted text. What she didn't notice
was the cross-post.
$ telnet news.eternal-september.org 119
Trying 2a01:4f8:222:84::2...
Connected to reader01.eternal-september.org.
Escape character is '^]'.
200 reader01.eternal-september.org InterNetNews NNRP server INN 2.8.0 (20220715 snapshot) ready (posting ok)
AUTHINFO USER [redacted]
381 Enter password
AUTHINFO PASS [redacted]
281 Authentication succeeded
HEAD <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
221 0 <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> head
X-Received: by 2002:a37:c13:0:b0:706:427f:5223 with SMTP id 19-20020a370c13000000b00706427f5223mr263068qkm.457.1674121321674;
Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2096:b0:364:3de2:bfe1 with SMTP id
s22-20020a056808209600b003643de2bfe1mr718766oiw.101.1674121321351; Thu, 19
Jan 2023 01:42:01 -0800 (PST)
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:8004:1160:28ef:d5ae:f4e8:3aac:6009;
posting-account=90ZYxQoAAAARzFPaCqTWUKRTGA9K_b9_
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Subject: Change and Choice
From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
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Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566
.
GROUP rec.arts.books
211 4691 2359 26599 rec.arts.books
OVER 26566
224 Overview information for 26566 follows
26566 Change and Choice Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com> Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST) <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> 6706 91 Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26566
.
GROUP comp.lang.c++
211 63384 23057 137920 comp.lang.c++
.
HEAD <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
221 0 <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> head
Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
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logging-data="1681452"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18J6P2KH2llFhvWVE1iFJYe+tuBgVnwBzU="
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Thunderbird/102.6.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:uQB3MZbITntrXxJyecyiI2kbvjs=
In-Reply-To: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: de-DE
Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26567 comp.lang.c++:137665
.
OVER 137665
224 Overview information for 137665 follows
137665 Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100 <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me><36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> 6542 33 Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org rec.arts.books:26567 comp.lang.c++:137665
.
While no longer available, I believe the Google Groups mystery article
included comp.lang.c++ in the overview headers of the article. It may
have also appeared in the Newsgroups header, but my time machine is in
the shop.
As Ray rebuilt the corrupted overview database, the *glitch* appears
rectified.
I'd like to apologize for my jumping to conclusions based on a lack of
direct evidence. I also created an E-S account, just for the telnet
access, at David Brown's recommendation.
I am sorry I jumped to conclusions, without having the evidence in
hand. I'll have to review *my* headers, now.
- --
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-28 13:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tr33uj$27911$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88881 |
On 28/01/2023 05:12, David Ritz wrote: > On Thursday, 26 January 2023 09:44 +0100, > in article <tqtehg$13som$3@dont-email.me>, > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > >> This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/ >> computer, it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/ >> Usenet server. Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message >> in question. It should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it >> only takes one of you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't >> trust or believe /me/). > >> If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking >> how to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer. > > Headers provide clarity and tell a story. > > Since the answers are in the headers, of the article on ES, providing > them might be useful. The overview headers, from which the news > client generates a threaded article list, are a subset of the full > headers. > > I am particularly interested in the Newsgroups, References and Xref > headers. > > I recommend using the View/Message Source (^U), rather than > View/Headers/All. That is what I have generally done, though I did not always post all the headers. (To be honest, I used "view source" because it is quicker to use a shortcut key, rather than because I thought it would give more information.) > > Whereas you read code. I read headers. Without sufficient > information, either of us is likely to make errors. I know I did, in > this case. > Sure. And we all get things wrong sometimes, or misunderstand - it's particularly easy when dealing with people who are not familiar with all the right terms or which details are important. (I am also a server and network administrator, with plenty of experience of a variety of server setups - but I have never had cause to learn about NNTP servers. And I have plenty of experience of assuming the user is the problem, rather than an issue with the server!) > > As Ray rebuilt the corrupted overview database, the *glitch* appears > rectified. > > I'd like to apologize for my jumping to conclusions based on a lack of > direct evidence. I also created an E-S account, just for the telnet > access, at David Brown's recommendation. > > I am sorry I jumped to conclusions, without having the evidence in > hand. I'll have to review *my* headers, now. > Thank you for saying that. I know I've learned a lot about Usenet from this discussion, and I am glad to see others have learned something too. Usenet seems to be an extraordinarily robust system, that has run for decades with very little in the way of technical problems (merely human problems). It makes sense to consider such server glitches as so unlikely that you have to eliminate other explanations first - but it turns out that one in a million chance events do happen sometimes!
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| From | Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-28 20:20 -0800 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <0001HW.29862BA9023FC174306F0738F@news.giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #88855 |
On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, David Brown wrote: > On 26/01/2023 03:27, iKook wrote: > > On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote: > > > > > > I recommend you check these things for yourself. > > > > I have done it on MixMin. See below > > That might be useful for comparison. > > > Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims? > > Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch! > > If you drive to the car workshop and tell them your car is making a > funny noise, would you be impressed if a whole bunch of mechanics rush > out and look at every other car in the car park? Then when they find > the other cars make no noise, they tell you it must be a troll in your car? > > How is it that there are people in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet who have > supposedly all this "experience and expertise", and are willing to look > up messages all over the place and draw all sorts of conclusions about > people, articles, and servers - and yet none of them seems willing to > take a look at the server that had the glitch? That requires setting up an account. That didn't seem to be necessary as the way you described the problem made it seem like it was not a server problem. > > I've been involved in computers a /long/ time. A rare glitch on a > server does not surprise me. What /does/ surprise and frustrate me are > two things. > > One is that so many people have been so quick to accuse and blame Bonita > of all sorts of things, without any consideration for alternative > explanations of events. That includes people who know her postings > well, and those who had not heard of her until this thread. Neither > groups have any excuse for their judgemental attitude. > > The other is that so many apparent experts are determined to look > everywhere except where the problem lies. It apparently does not matter > what details I give, what explanations I post, what guides I give to > reproducing the problem so that you can see it for yourself. No, > apparently the "expert" handling is to ignore all I write, deny that > servers can ever have glitches, and ask for more evidence. > > This really isn't rocket science. If the problem was on /my/ computer, > it would be hard to replicate - but it is on a /free/ Usenet server. > Make a /free/ account there, and look at the message in question. It > should take all of about 10 minutes - and really it only takes one of > you "net-abuse" lot to do it (since you don't trust or believe /me/). > > If you don't want to do that, fair enough. But please stop asking how > to verify my claims and then ignoring the answer. You mis-explained in a way to lead others to misunderstand the problem. The problem of Bonita's post and the second problem of the server error, which apparently was coincidental. I'm sorry to misunderstand about the server problem.
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-29 12:00 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tr5jjk$2npbg$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88894 |
On 29/01/2023 05:20, Pluted Pup wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:44:32 -0800, David Brown wrote: > >> On 26/01/2023 03:27, iKook wrote: >>> On 25/01/2023 23:00, David Brown wrote: >>>> >>>> I recommend you check these things for yourself. >>> >>> I have done it on MixMin. See below >> >> That might be useful for comparison. >> >>> Is there anything else we could check for ourselves to verify your claims? >> >> Yes - check it on the server that had the glitch! >> >> If you drive to the car workshop and tell them your car is making a >> funny noise, would you be impressed if a whole bunch of mechanics rush >> out and look at every other car in the car park? Then when they find >> the other cars make no noise, they tell you it must be a troll in your car? >> >> How is it that there are people in news.admin.net-abuse.usenet who have >> supposedly all this "experience and expertise", and are willing to look >> up messages all over the place and draw all sorts of conclusions about >> people, articles, and servers - and yet none of them seems willing to >> take a look at the server that had the glitch? > > That requires setting up an account. That didn't seem to > be necessary as the way you described the problem made it > seem like it was not a server problem. What? What part of "this is clearly a server glitch", "it is only visible with news.eternal-september.org", and pretty much everything else I wrote, could be interpreted as "not a server problem" ? To be fair, the news.admin.net-abuse.usenet followers might not have read from the start of the thread as seen on comp.lang.c++, and thus missed some of the earlier posts. But everything I have written since the cross-posting has been clearly about a server glitch and desperately trying to persuade the Usenet experts to look for themselves on news.eternal-september.org so that they can see the difference. Those who /have/ now looked have been in no doubt - it was a server glitch. I do appreciate that setting up an account on that server is an inconvenience and effort, and people could have a wide range of good reasons for not wanting to do that. I do not expect any particular person to make an account and check it. All I expect is that people who choose not to go to the source and look at the primary evidence, should not profess an "expert opinion" on the matter. > > You mis-explained in a way to lead others to misunderstand the > problem. The problem of Bonita's post and the second problem > of the server error, which apparently was coincidental. I'm sorry > to misunderstand about the server problem. > There were not two coincidental problems - there was /one/ problem. A server glitch. Bonita made a post in poor style - quoting an entire long message with a single top-posted comment. Usenet is swamped with people who do that - it is not some rare or unusual "problem", and if people complained to admins about "abuse" for such posts, admins would see nothing else. You can be sure that none of the regulars in comp.lang.c++ would bother about it.
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| From | gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-29 12:01 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tr5n5s$36u55$1@news.xmission.com> |
| In reply to | #88897 |
In article <tr5jjk$2npbg$3@dont-email.me>, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: ... >I do appreciate that setting up an account on that server is an >inconvenience and effort, and people could have a wide range of good >reasons for not wanting to do that. I do not expect any particular >person to make an account and check it. All I expect is that people who >choose not to go to the source and look at the primary evidence, should >not profess an "expert opinion" on the matter. But that's what these newsgroups are all about. Not letting not knowing anything stop you from giving advice. Just look at all the nonsense you (and that other poster) have spewed in that other thread - the one about modifying object modules using established working tools. You guys (both of you) need to look up what "IMHO" means - and start liberally using it in your posts. -- People often ask what is the difference between liberals and conservatives. It is this. Libs see the government helping them and are OK with the government also helping other people. Cons see the government screwing them and are OK with that as long as the government is also screwing other people.
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| From | Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-29 16:23 -0800 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <798c4dae-a5c3-4429-bd63-b10e49961cefn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #88900 |
On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 7:01:17 AM UTC-5, Kenny McCormack wrote: > Just look at all the nonsense you (and that other poster) have spewed in > that other thread - the one about modifying object modules using > established working tools. You guys (both of you) need to look up what > "IMHO" means - and start liberally using it in your posts. > I've always thought that acronym was superfluous, if not the author's, whose other opinion could it possibly be? Daniel
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| From | Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-30 01:14 +0000 |
| Subject | [OT] Writing IMHO |
| Message-ID | <87sffsrfh1.fsf_-_@bsb.me.uk> |
| In reply to | #88906 |
Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> writes: > On Sunday, January 29, 2023 at 7:01:17 AM UTC-5, Kenny McCormack wrote: > >> Just look at all the nonsense you (and that other poster) have spewed in >> that other thread - the one about modifying object modules using >> established working tools. You guys (both of you) need to look up what >> "IMHO" means - and start liberally using it in your posts. >> > I've always thought that acronym was superfluous, if not the author's, > whose other opinion could it possibly be? It's not used to indicate /whose/ opinion it is, it's used to emphasise that what is being presented in now firmly in the domain of opinion and not fact. -- Ben.
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| From | Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-25 22:58 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <CalGwGYMri+TaoE2w@bongo-ra.co> |
| In reply to | #88814 |
On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 20:46:54 +0100
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> > All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume
> > you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective
> > post and you can no longer reproduce them.
> >
>
> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the
> same effect.
>
> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the
> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.
I thought so because it is one of the first things you should have mentioned
in the very first post you talked about a server glitch. You are a technical
person , you *know* that for bugs , glitches , etc. one ideally should
mention precise steps which would allow one to reproduce the problem. So I
can't imagine what you were thinking in failing to do so. It couldn't have
been for lack of time because you posted some very long responses which were
light on technical content but made no mention whatsoever of the very
important fact that you could consistently reproduce the problem. In fact ,
in at least 4 posts you said "a server fault" or something analogous without
mentioning that there was one specific server on which you saw the issue. I
was actually wondering what the hell was happening and you weren't giving
specifics.
> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not
> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the
> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
>
> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
This isn't very helpful and in particular it doesn't help to distinguish
whether it's a server issue or a Thunderbird issue. Just because Thunderbird
threads posts in a certain way or puts some post under a certain group ,
does not imply that the server has the same view of things. Perhaps Thunderbird
received correct responses from the server and messed things up. Below I will
give 2 precise ways to reproduce the problem which clearly show that it's an
eternal-september issue. Before doing so I will note that when you want to
talk about the date of a message it is best to quote the following 2 lines from
the header
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
instead of saying for example (from <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>)
"timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31" .If Thunderbird does not allow you to see the
header exactly as it received it from the server then it's no good for
diagnosing issues.
For both of the following methods one must have an eternal-september account
since this is the server which displays the issue.
Method 1
You need to have the lynx text based browser installed. You do
lynx news://news.eternal-september.org/comp.lang.c++/137660-137665
.This asks lynx to contact news.eternal-september.org and fetch article
numbers 137660-137665 from the group comp.lang.c++ .Note that article
numbers are server and group specific , a different server might not have
articles with such numbers or they might refer to different posts. But the
important point here is that whatever posts the server returns , they must
have been posted to comp.lang.c++ , possibly among other groups. The first
post you will see is
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Change and Choice
From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>
.Note that it was not (cross)posted on comp.lang.c++ so it should have
never been returned. The last post you will see in the above list is
=====
From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
[...]
Are you the twin-brother of Amine Moulay Ramdane ?
Am 19.01.2023 um 10:31 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
[...]
=====
.This correctly appears in the response by the server since it was crossposted
on comp.lang.c++ .
Method 2
You have to run a Python script which I will give below. It runs on Python
2.5 .Yes it's an old version but it's the only one I have handy and I haven't
bothered to learn Python 3.whatever .But the script should run on the newest
Python with little or no modifications. You run the script with
python path-to-script username password
where username and password are the ones you have for eternal-september .
The script will append its output to file /tmp/server-glitch-2 .
==== Script starts on the next line
import os
import string
import sys
import nntplib
import datetime
class TerminateError(Exception) :
def __init__(self , message) :
self.mes = message
def __str__(self) : return self.mes
def terminate(*args) :
global util_name
mes = util_name + " :"
for a in args :
mes = mes + " " + str(a)
raise TerminateError(mes)
util_name = "server-glitch"
server = "news.eternal-september.org"
separ = '\n@@@ \n\n'
port = 119
if len(sys.argv) != 3 :
terminate("2 arguments required : username and password")
username = sys.argv[1]
password = sys.argv[2]
fnobj = open("/tmp/server-glitch-2" , "a")
now = datetime.datetime.now()
fnobj.write("Starting at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") + '\n\n')
try :
connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
fnobj.write("Response choosing comp.lang.c++ was\n\n" + str(response) + "\n\n")
response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
fnobj.write("Response asking for range of articles was\n\n" +
str(response) + "\n\n")
for art in overviews :
fnobj.write("Article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n")
fnobj.write(str(art[1]) + "\n\n")
for art in overviews :
response , number , id , content = connection.article(str(art[0]))
if id == '<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>' or \
id == '<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>' :
fnobj.write("Printing article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n\n")
for l in content :
fnobj.write(l + '\n')
fnobj.write(separ)
else :
fnobj.write("Skipping article with id\n " + id + separ)
connection.quit()
except nntplib.NNTPError,exception :
terminate("NNTP error\n" , "Exception was\n" , exception)
now = datetime.datetime.now()
fnobj.write("Terminating at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") +
'\n\n =======\n\n')
fnobj.close
====
The important points are the following :
server = "news.eternal-september.org"
connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
It connects to eternal-september and goes to comp.lang.c++ .
response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
Asks for list of articles from 137660 to 137665 , same numbers as with
lynx above.
Then it goes through the articles one by one and puts in
/tmp/server-glitch-2 the articles with IDs
<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> and
<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> .It puts the articles exactly as it receives
them from the header. Again you will see that the Shambat article has
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
so it should not have appeared under comp.lang.c++ regardless of what
range of articles we asked for.
--
Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand
what they do not manage, and those who manage what they do not
understand.
Putt's law
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-26 13:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tqtqka$1672l$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88841 |
On 25/01/2023 23:58, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 20:46:54 +0100
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>>> All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume
>>> you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective
>>> post and you can no longer reproduce them.
>>>
>>
>> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely
>> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use
>> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean
>> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the
>> same effect.
>>
>> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the
>> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/
>> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with
>> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan.
>
> I thought so because it is one of the first things you should have mentioned
> in the very first post you talked about a server glitch. You are a technical
> person , you *know* that for bugs , glitches , etc. one ideally should
> mention precise steps which would allow one to reproduce the problem.
If I had tested with Pan at that point, I would have mentioned it. I
have tested more as I investigated further - I have also learned from
other people's posts.
> So I
> can't imagine what you were thinking in failing to do so. It couldn't have
> been for lack of time because you posted some very long responses which were
> light on technical content but made no mention whatsoever of the very
> important fact that you could consistently reproduce the problem. In fact ,
> in at least 4 posts you said "a server fault" or something analogous without
> mentioning that there was one specific server on which you saw the issue. I
> was actually wondering what the hell was happening and you weren't giving
> specifics.
>
I have tried to give specifics as people have asked for them, as well as
guidance to reproduce the problem. At the start, however, I had no idea
how widespread the issue might have been - maybe it was temporary, maybe
it was related to the client, maybe it had propagated to all Usenet
servers. When I first saw it, I assumed it was local to my PC - it was
only gradually that I realised Bonita had seen the same glitch I had,
and it was not just on my system.
>> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not
>> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are
>> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the
>> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and
>> easy way to make a link to the screenshot.
>>
>> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014>
>
> This isn't very helpful and in particular it doesn't help to distinguish
> whether it's a server issue or a Thunderbird issue. Just because Thunderbird
The screenshot is not Thunderbird, it is Pan. Thunderbird and Pan
appear to show threads in exactly the same way, as far as I could tell.
> threads posts in a certain way or puts some post under a certain group ,
> does not imply that the server has the same view of things. Perhaps Thunderbird
> received correct responses from the server and messed things up. Below I will
> give 2 precise ways to reproduce the problem which clearly show that it's an
> eternal-september issue. Before doing so I will note that when you want to
> talk about the date of a message it is best to quote the following 2 lines from
> the header
>
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
> Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:42:01 +0000
>
> instead of saying for example (from <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>)
> "timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31" .If Thunderbird does not allow you to see the
> header exactly as it received it from the server then it's no good for
> diagnosing issues.
>
Pan and Thunderbird are both perfectly good for diagnosing that there
was a ****ing server glitch that meant the wrong article was returned
for the message id in the header. I didn't know how to make Pan show
the message ID from the header until just recently. But you don't need
the id or other information to see that there is clearly a mismatch.
>
> For both of the following methods one must have an eternal-september account
> since this is the server which displays the issue.
>
> Method 1
>
> You need to have the lynx text based browser installed.
I haven't used it for years, but I do have it installed.
> You do
>
> lynx news://news.eternal-september.org/comp.lang.c++/137660-137665
>
> .This asks lynx to contact news.eternal-september.org and fetch article
> numbers 137660-137665 from the group comp.lang.c++ .Note that article
> numbers are server and group specific , a different server might not have
> articles with such numbers or they might refer to different posts. But the
> important point here is that whatever posts the server returns , they must
> have been posted to comp.lang.c++ , possibly among other groups.
Yes - assuming everything is working correctly at the server.
> The first
> post you will see is
>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:42:00 -0800 (PST)
> Message-ID: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Change and Choice
> From: Ilya Shambat <ibshambat@gmail.com>
>
> .Note that it was not (cross)posted on comp.lang.c++ so it should have
> never been returned.
Correct. It should never have been there - it is a result of the glitch.
> The last post you will see in the above list is
>
> =====
> From: Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,comp.lang.c++
> Subject: Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 15:42:54 +0100
> Message-ID: <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
> References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
>
> [...]
>
> Are you the twin-brother of Amine Moulay Ramdane ?
>
> Am 19.01.2023 um 10:31 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> [...]
> =====
>
> .This correctly appears in the response by the server since it was crossposted
> on comp.lang.c++ .
>
Yes, I can confirm this is all as you say.
> Method 2
>
> You have to run a Python script which I will give below. It runs on Python
> 2.5 .Yes it's an old version but it's the only one I have handy and I haven't
> bothered to learn Python 3.whatever .But the script should run on the newest
> Python with little or no modifications. You run the script with
>
I have Python 2.7, rather than 2.5, on this system. But it works fine
there too. Python was my first thought as a way to do a
newsreader-independent check of the issue (I had no idea that lynx could
handle the NNTP protocol). I hadn't bothered trying it because I had
confirmed the issue with a different newsreader (Pan).
But trying your script gives the expected result - the rec.arts.book
article is returned by the server when asking for articles that appear
in the overview data for comp.lang.c++.
Thanks for making these recipes and the script, and confirming the glitch.
> python path-to-script username password
>
> where username and password are the ones you have for eternal-september .
> The script will append its output to file /tmp/server-glitch-2 .
>
> ==== Script starts on the next line
> import os
> import string
> import sys
> import nntplib
> import datetime
>
> class TerminateError(Exception) :
> def __init__(self , message) :
> self.mes = message
>
> def __str__(self) : return self.mes
>
> def terminate(*args) :
> global util_name
>
> mes = util_name + " :"
> for a in args :
> mes = mes + " " + str(a)
> raise TerminateError(mes)
>
> util_name = "server-glitch"
> server = "news.eternal-september.org"
> separ = '\n@@@ \n\n'
> port = 119
>
> if len(sys.argv) != 3 :
> terminate("2 arguments required : username and password")
>
> username = sys.argv[1]
> password = sys.argv[2]
>
> fnobj = open("/tmp/server-glitch-2" , "a")
> now = datetime.datetime.now()
> fnobj.write("Starting at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") + '\n\n')
>
> try :
> connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
>
> response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
> fnobj.write("Response choosing comp.lang.c++ was\n\n" + str(response) + "\n\n")
> response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
> fnobj.write("Response asking for range of articles was\n\n" +
> str(response) + "\n\n")
>
> for art in overviews :
> fnobj.write("Article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n")
> fnobj.write(str(art[1]) + "\n\n")
>
> for art in overviews :
> response , number , id , content = connection.article(str(art[0]))
> if id == '<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>' or \
> id == '<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>' :
> fnobj.write("Printing article number " + str(art[0]) + " :\n\n")
> for l in content :
> fnobj.write(l + '\n')
> fnobj.write(separ)
> else :
> fnobj.write("Skipping article with id\n " + id + separ)
> connection.quit()
> except nntplib.NNTPError,exception :
> terminate("NNTP error\n" , "Exception was\n" , exception)
>
> now = datetime.datetime.now()
> fnobj.write("Terminating at " + now.strftime("%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %z") +
> '\n\n =======\n\n')
> fnobj.close
> ====
>
> The important points are the following :
>
> server = "news.eternal-september.org"
>
> connection = nntplib.NNTP(server , port , username , password)
>
> response = connection.group("comp.lang.c++")
>
> It connects to eternal-september and goes to comp.lang.c++ .
>
> response , overviews = connection.xover("137660" , "137665")
>
> Asks for list of articles from 137660 to 137665 , same numbers as with
> lynx above.
>
> Then it goes through the articles one by one and puts in
> /tmp/server-glitch-2 the articles with IDs
> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> and
> <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> .It puts the articles exactly as it receives
> them from the header. Again you will see that the Shambat article has
>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
>
> so it should not have appeared under comp.lang.c++ regardless of what
> range of articles we asked for.
>
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Pluted Pup <plutedpup@outlook.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-28 19:54 -0800 |
| Subject | Thunderbird Broken Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <0001HW.2986256E023E4BBC306F0738F@news.giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #88814 |
On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:46:54 -0800, David Brown wrote: > On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:20:19 +0100 > > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > > > It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the > > > news.eternal-september.org server. Somehow, a message body from > > > rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was delivered as though it matched > > > the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in the thread. (I'm guessing > > > Muttley actually made a post in the original thread, but I am unable to > > > see the real message body.) The glitch appears to be limited to > > > news.eternal-september.org - other users of that server have said they > > > saw it, while it did not appear on other servers. People have reported > > > the existence of the rambling essay post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya > > > Shambat - it was a real post, but on news.eternal-september.org the > > > message body was accidentally attached to the wrong header summaries for > > > comp.lang.c++. > > > > > > Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The > > > same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however, > > > highly unlikely. > > > > It could be a Thunderbird issue. Note the following : > > > > All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume > > you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective > > post and you can no longer reproduce them. > > You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely > something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use > news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean > installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the > same effect. > > I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the > broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/ > replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with > Thunderbird, and now also with Pan. > > For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not > used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are > unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the > link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and > easy way to make a link to the screenshot. > > <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014> That screen makes no sense and I would guess it to be a Thunderbird problem. Thunderbird on mac has been broken for me for many months and have quit trying to make it work. A client problem, not a server problem. So Thunderbird is broken or semi-broken depending on Mac (broken), Windows (semi-broken), or Linux (somewhat broken). If Mozilla (Thunderbird) doesn't want to support newsgroups anymore, they should stop pretending to. This is me jumping to conclusions.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-29 12:04 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Thunderbird Broken Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tr5jrf$2npbg$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88893 |
On 29/01/2023 04:54, Pluted Pup wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:46:54 -0800, David Brown wrote: > >> On 24/01/2023 18:47, Spiros Bousbouras wrote: >>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 14:20:19 +0100 >>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: >>>> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the >>>> news.eternal-september.org server. Somehow, a message body from >>>> rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was delivered as though it matched >>>> the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in the thread. (I'm guessing >>>> Muttley actually made a post in the original thread, but I am unable to >>>> see the real message body.) The glitch appears to be limited to >>>> news.eternal-september.org - other users of that server have said they >>>> saw it, while it did not appear on other servers. People have reported >>>> the existence of the rambling essay post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya >>>> Shambat - it was a real post, but on news.eternal-september.org the >>>> message body was accidentally attached to the wrong header summaries for >>>> comp.lang.c++. >>>> >>>> Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The >>>> same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however, >>>> highly unlikely. >>> >>> It could be a Thunderbird issue. Note the following : >>> >>> All 3 of you use Thunderbird. Not precisely the same version but close. I assume >>> you have tried to reproduce the steps which originally led you to see the defective >>> post and you can no longer reproduce them. >> >> You are correct that we all use Thunderbird, and it is definitely >> something I considered. More relevantly, however, we all use >> news.eternal-september.org. And I have just tested using a clean >> installation of pan as an alternative newsreader, and seen exactly the >> same effect. >> >> I don't know why you think I can no longer reproduce the effect of the >> broken post - I have made no such suggestion, precisely because I /can/ >> replicate it. I still see it on two different computers with >> Thunderbird, and now also with Pan. >> >> For convenience, I have taken a screenshot of the effect. I have not >> used this site "paste.pics" before, and I apologise if there are >> unwanted adverts or other effects. If you are sceptical of clicking the >> link, then I can happily email the screenshot. But it seems a quick and >> easy way to make a link to the screenshot. >> >> <https://paste.pics/b4149f38abb4e210da0a71886714d014> > > That screen makes no sense and I would guess it to be a > Thunderbird problem. Thunderbird on mac has been broken > for me for many months and have quit trying to make it work. > A client problem, not a server problem. > It's a screenshot from Pan, not Thunderbird. (You realise this is Usenet, don't you? It is not personal email - you are allowed to read replies I have made to other people. Indeed, it's a good idea, and saves repetition.) It makes no sense because it shows a /server/ problem - the /server/ returned nonsense for that post. > So Thunderbird is broken or semi-broken depending on > Mac (broken), Windows (semi-broken), or Linux (somewhat > broken). > > If Mozilla (Thunderbird) doesn't want to support newsgroups > anymore, they should stop pretending to. This is me jumping > to conclusions. > I've found Thunderbird to work fine on Linux (I also use it on Windows, but not for Usenet). It's not perfect, but I've found few programs that /are/ perfect. And it shows the same glitch here as Pan does, because it is a /server/ glitch, not a client issue.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-24 20:30 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <722p47pr-74s1-rs64-841o-4024s8npo391@zvaqfcevat.pbz> |
| In reply to | #88809 |
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 17:47 -0000, in article <B1jyOFXZ9kwyO2oB1@bongo-ra.co>, Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote: [...] > It could be a Thunderbird issue. [...] Keep guessing. -- David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> "Blues is easy to play, but hard to feel." - Jimi Hendrix (1942-70)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-24 20:25 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <93576q27-0258-2499-6064-oq63n8sr46qp@zvaqfcevat.pbz> |
| In reply to | #88804 |
[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 14:20 +0100,
in article <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>,
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 21:46, David Ritz wrote:
>> On Monday, 23 January 2023 20:06 -0000,
>> in article <z8dmrhuM9xNk7FY=M@bongo-ra.co>,
>> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:03:52 -0600
>>> David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>> You will never find an article posted only to rec.arts.books,
>>>> in comp.lang.c++.
>>> Not under normal circumstances but the claim is that a temporary
>>> glitch on eternal-september caused it to happen and that David
>>> Brown saw it with his own eyes.
>> I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious,
>> unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error.
> I'm sorry, but you are wrong.
While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the
other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw.
What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed
it on ES? Show me.
In this specific incidence, I have yet to see anything which supports
this notion. Show me.
> If you think servers - hardware and/or software - can never fail,
> you are naïve beyond comprehension.
I am not so inclined. Software and hardware failures are a certainty.
> If you think it is appropriate to accuse one person you have never
> met of lying, and another of trolling, based solely on your belief
> in the perfection of all Usenet servers, then you should not be
> involving yourself in any kind of abuse resolution or advice. You
> should be asking questions first - not passing arbitrary judgement.
Being confused and intentionally spreading falsehoods are different
things. You are simply mistaken.
To review:
<02q63458-1orq-4135-9358-994371poq6o8@zvaqfcevat.pbz>
<(http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167454810700
DR> Based on the References header of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>):
DR>
DR> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>) posted to
DR> rec.arts.books, only: strictly limited to a single newsgroup by G2's
DR> http2nntp interface. The article was posted using the GG posting
DR> account associated with the valid ibshambat@gmail.com email address.
This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in
rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except
as quoted, in full:
<02q63458-1orq-4135-9358-994371poq6o8@zvaqfcevat.pbz>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167454810700>)
DR> <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com>": <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>) added comp.lang.c++.
DR> The troll includes the full quote of the original post. The
DR> information included in the From header, of this message, may or may
DR> not accurately reflect its origin.
I am asking you to show me the M-ID for the article, "Change and
Choice," in comp.lang.c++.
AGAIN, <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> never
appeared in comp.lang.c++. No matter how long or hard one looks for
this article in comp.lang.c++, on any NNTP server, one will not find
it.
If you believe otherwise, show me; make me eat my words.
See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>.
The followup, <tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> was posted to
rec.arts.books, but with comp.lang.c++ appended to the Newgroup
header. NOTE: The subject was also changed to "Re: Compute Unique
Numbers in a Set".
See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449840700>.
NOTE: I am not calling anyone a troll. This followup, purporting to
be from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, IS the troll: bait trailed behind a
boat, in order to catch fish. It was quite a success, as the bait was
taken, hook, line and sinker, by several of the unsuspecting, if
somewhat naïve readers of comp.lang.c++.
ADDITIONALLY, I have nothing to irrefutably identify this post as
actually being originated by Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, as ES users are
able to put pretty much whatever they desire into a From header. As
stated previously, it may or may not be from Bonita.
If it is from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, fine. If not, and
Bonita.Montero@gmail.com is an address active and assigned to another
Gmail user, there may be a basis for forgery complaint.
DR> X-post continued in <tqbn12$1jgmh$1@dont-email.me>
DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449840700>, from
DR> =?UTF-8?B?w5bDtiBUaWli?= <ootiib@hot.ee>). It is in this post that
DR> the erroneous claim, "I can find no server with 'quoted' post,"
DR> appears. (The quoted original text appeared only in rec.arts.books,
DR> not in comp.lang.c++.)
DB> And you thought it was necessary to quote the /entire/ post to make that
DB> comment?
<ea2f3bb3-532d-4014-9acd-24fe10a1feecn@googlegroups.com>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449849500>) posted only to
comp.lang.c++.
ÖT> BM probably made it up. I can find no server with "quoted" post.
As demonstrated, _this_ was the glitch. It involved neither software
nor hardware. This was a wetware glitch, likely based on a search in
the wrong newsgroup..
> Someone of the "Show me" school would ask for more information.
> You appear to be in the "Jump to conclusions" school.
My first request was for a vowel^W Message-ID. I then looked at the
headers of the article, to which I was replying, which told the story
in the References headers of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>).
References: <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
<tqbkrr$1ja1c$1@dont-email.me> <tqbn12$1jgmh$1@dont-email.me>
<ea2f3bb3-532d-4014-9acd-24fe10a1feecn@googlegroups.com>
<tqbrub$1kco3$1@redfloyd.dont-email.me> <Xl3lFrvdCHAcHgye5@bongo-ra.co>
<glAd6+V1QpMVQTwiD@bongo-ra.co> <tqed5k$mbn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<7f79edd3-1735-4d01-9760-bd24db578e41n@googlegroups.com>
<tqgkfh$2j5t0$1@dont-email.me> <tqh1vj$1dnb$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<tqjaf1$33opo$1@dont-email.me>
<tqlkc2$148e$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tqm247$3kqcf$2@dont-email.me>
Notice, the thread begins with the "Change and Choice" article, posted
via Google Groups. This article appears only in rec.arts.books.
Keep in mind, many NNTP clients use the Reference header for the purpose of
threading. It's fairly cheap, as the References are an overview header,
like the From, Message-ID, and Xref headers.
> There are limits to how much I can "show you" what happened.
You don't have much to show me, then, do you?
> But I can describe things in as much detail as practical.
Your descriptions must be taken with a grain of salt, as I am unable
to verify your interpretation.
> I use news.eternal-september.org as a Usenet server, with Thunderbird as
> the client.
Both are irrelevant.
> I am currently looking at the thread with subject "Re:
> Compute Unique Numbers in a Set" started (via a cross-post from
> comp.lang.c) on 08.01.2023.
This is a different thread. It is completely unrelated to my
examination, here.
Human readable Subjects are included for humans. M-IDs and References
are included so that machines and processes can work with them.
> On one branch, posters "Bonita Montero" and
> "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com" had been arguing back and forth, here in
> comp.lang.c++. The penultimate post in the branch was made by Bonita
> 18.01.2023, 18:23, message id "tq99tp$vtqp$1@dont-email.me". Everything
> looks normal.
As noted, that was a different thread.
> When downloading message headers, the next message on the thread appears
> to be the expected reply from Muttley. It has the same subject, and the
> timestamp 19.01.2023, 10:31.
I don't particularly care, as its a different thread. The troll changed the
Subject, to "Re: Compute Unique Numbers in a Set." This does not make it
part of the same references based thread. You were trolled by a Subject
line modification.
> The message body here is, however, completely unexpected. It's headers do
> not match the previously downloaded headers. In the message body, the
> subject is "Change and Choice", the poster is "Ilya Shambat", the
> newsgroup is "rec.arts.books", the id is
> "36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com", there are no
> reference links to the other messages in the thread. The message contains
> a rambling essay.
So what? It's the beginning of a new, completely unrelated thread.
> If I attempt to follow-up the message in Thunderbird, the Thunderbird
> client sets the newsgroup to "rec.arts.books", the subject to "Re: Compute
> Unique Numbers in a Set" (i.e., from the pre-downloaded headers, not the
> body), and the quotation is given as "Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:".
> The body of the quotation is the rambling essay. This is entirely
> consistent with Bonita's post - she replied to what she believed to be a
> message from Muttley.
It's in the new tread, which began in rec.arts.books.
> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the
> news.eternal-september.org server.
I'm not seeing it. Say it again, that's sure to change my response.
> Somehow, a message body from rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was
> delivered as though it matched the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in
> the thread. (I'm guessing Muttley actually made a post in the original
> thread, but I am unable to see the real message body.)
Please see my headers, regarding invalid assumptions.
There was no link, beyond a Subject change in the X-posted troll.
> The glitch appears to be limited to news.eternal-september.org - other
> users of that server have said they saw it, while it did not appear on
> other servers. People have reported the existence of the rambling essay
> post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya Shambat - it was a real post, but on
> news.eternal-september.org the message body was accidentally attached to
> the wrong header summaries for comp.lang.c++.
Show me. (While I have access to several Usenet servers, I do not
have an account with Ray.)
> Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The
> same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however,
> highly unlikely. And the idea that Bonita would jumped through hoops to
> repost some random post from another group but made to look like it came
> from Muttley so that she could comment on it - it's ridiculous.
>> I recommend a visit to an optician.
> I recommend you either listen to what happened, or bow out of this
> conversation. It is possible that you have experiences or knowledge that
> could help explain things - but if you think you know all the answers
> before you've heard the question, there's no point in commenting.
You're here, theoretically in order to learn from my experience and
expertise. I read headers. I try to steer clear of idle speculation.
The References, in the original Compute Unique Numbers thread, do not
appear in the headers of this or any other message, which begins with
"Change and Choice" based thread, beginning with
<36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com>
(<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>). Look at the
References.
You were trolled. Get over it.
- --
David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
Never underestimate the gullibility of the average user.
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-25 00:10 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tqqdjt$gk2j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88825 |
On 1/24/23 21:25, David Ritz wrote: > On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 14:20 +0100, > in article <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me>, > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > >> On 23/01/2023 21:46, David Ritz wrote: > >>> On Monday, 23 January 2023 20:06 -0000, >>> in article <z8dmrhuM9xNk7FY=M@bongo-ra.co>, >>> Spiros Bousbouras <spibou@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 13:03:52 -0600 >>>> David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com> wrote: > >>>>> You will never find an article posted only to rec.arts.books, >>>>> in comp.lang.c++. > >>>> Not under normal circumstances but the claim is that a temporary >>>> glitch on eternal-september caused it to happen and that David >>>> Brown saw it with his own eyes. > >>> I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious, >>> unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error. > >> I'm sorry, but you are wrong. > > While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the > other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw. He's posted a screenshot of what he "believes" he saw. Do you claim that the screenshot is a forgery? Snipe posted a message pointing out that the newsgroup eternal-september.support had messages in it from the system administrators acknowledging that there had been some server glitches recently. Looking at that newsgroup, it appears that they've had a flurry of messages about a variety of server problems for a week now, and took the server down to resolve the problems a few days ago. As far as I can tell, they do not mention this particular glitch in that newsgroup, but the other glitches they've had around the same time makes it more plausible that this particular incident may also have been the result of a server glitch. > What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed > it on ES? Show me. According to David's own message with the ID <tqoluk$5cht$2@dont-email.me> the message-id was 36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com Which matches exactly the message id you give: > DR> Based on the References header of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co> > DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>): > DR> > DR> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> > DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>) posted to > DR> rec.arts.books, only: strictly limited to a single newsgroup by G2's > DR> http2nntp interface. The article was posted using the GG posting > DR> account associated with the valid ibshambat@gmail.com email address. > > This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in > rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except > as quoted, in full: Since David asserted that what he saw was a message header list that matched the message actually posted by Muttley to comp.lang.c++, and that the corresponding message body had headers that matched the message actually posted by Ilya Shambat to rec.arts.books, that is consistent with what you saw. What newsserver did you use to view those messages? If the server problems mentioned in eternal-september.support are in fact relevant, you SHOULDN'T be seeing the same thing he does, unless you're using eternal-september as your server. I didn't see that message, despite the fact that I do use eternal-september.org, but that's because Muttley's on my killfile, so I can't personally confirm what David is saying.
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-01-25 10:56 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Server glitch vs other possibilities (Was : Compute Unique Numbers in a Set) |
| Message-ID | <tqquc8$k65d$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #88825 |
On 25/01/2023 03:25, David Ritz wrote: (snipping a bit for brevity) > >>> I'm of the "Show Me" school. I do not care about spurious, >>> unsupported claims. The only glitch was human error. > >> I'm sorry, but you are wrong. > > While that may be possible, it is unlikely in this case. You, on the > other hand, are simply mistaken about what you believe you saw. > Again, you are wrong. I am not mistaken, and this has been confirmed in several ways. Please read my other posts in this thread to see my descriptions of the problem and how it appeared, details of the message ID's, a description of how to replicate the issue, and a screenshot showing it. Oh, wait - you /did/ read them, as you quoted them below. And yet you deny them blindly. There was also a post from Sn!pe confirming that the admin of the news.eternal-september.org was aware there had been a synchronisation issue between the overview database and the main message database on that server - /exactly/ the kind of server glitch that could lead to the effect seen. > What, pray tell, is the M-ID for the original essay, as you observed > it on ES? Show me. > See above - I did. > In this specific incidence, I have yet to see anything which supports > this notion. Show me. > >> If you think servers - hardware and/or software - can never fail, >> you are naïve beyond comprehension. > > I am not so inclined. Software and hardware failures are a certainty. And yet you conclude - with certainty - that there was no failure here? > >> If you think it is appropriate to accuse one person you have never >> met of lying, and another of trolling, based solely on your belief >> in the perfection of all Usenet servers, then you should not be >> involving yourself in any kind of abuse resolution or advice. You >> should be asking questions first - not passing arbitrary judgement. > > Being confused and intentionally spreading falsehoods are different > things. You are simply mistaken. > Fair enough. > To review: > > <02q63458-1orq-4135-9358-994371poq6o8@zvaqfcevat.pbz> > <(http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167454810700 > > DR> Based on the References header of <JaMukkKxSBcM7VPWN@bongo-ra.co> > DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449837100>): > DR> > DR> <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> > DR> (<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449810000>) posted to > DR> rec.arts.books, only: strictly limited to a single newsgroup by G2's > DR> http2nntp interface. The article was posted using the GG posting > DR> account associated with the valid ibshambat@gmail.com email address. > > This is the essay, titled "Change and Choice" which appeared only in > rec.arts.books. This article never appeared in comp.lang.c++, except > as quoted, in full: Incorrect. You are mistaken. The article did not appear in comp.lang.c++ on any of the newsservers /you/ looked at. It /did/ appear in comp.lang.c++ on news.eternal-september.org. I do not know if it also appears in rec.arts.books on news.eternal-september.org - I have not looked at that group. (It also appeared in a quotation in the post made by Bonita. That was made as a normal post by Bonita, quoting the message as it appeared on news.eternal-september.org.) > > I am asking you to show me the M-ID for the article, "Change and > Choice," in comp.lang.c++. > > AGAIN, <36403165-3cf1-4b73-8ad1-da339b960339n@googlegroups.com> never > appeared in comp.lang.c++. No matter how long or hard one looks for > this article in comp.lang.c++, on any NNTP server, one will not find > it. > Incorrect. Again, you are mistaken. It appears on the server news.eternal-september.org in the group comp.lang.c++, exactly as I said it does. This is the result of a server glitch - a synchronisation issue between the overview database and the main database. I believe I am safe in asserting that you have not checked /every/ NNTP server for this post. In particular, I am entirely confident that you have not looked on the relevant server - news.eternal-september.org. > If you believe otherwise, show me; make me eat my words. > I have shown you. I have given a screenshot, and detailed instructions on how to see the problem for yourself. That requires you to make an account on news.eternal-september.org so that you can see the problem there. I hope that you will do so. You will learn a little about what can go wrong in Usenet servers, and perhaps also why it is not good to jump to conclusions or make too many claims before you have looked at the details. > See <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=167449819800>. > I am aware of how the messages appear on other servers (I used Google Groups to check, for practical convenience). Other servers did not see the mismatch between the overview header and the message body. > > NOTE: I am not calling anyone a troll. This followup, purporting to > be from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, IS the troll: bait trailed behind a > boat, in order to catch fish. It was quite a success, as the bait was > taken, hook, line and sinker, by several of the unsuspecting, if > somewhat naïve readers of comp.lang.c++. > > ADDITIONALLY, I have nothing to irrefutably identify this post as > actually being originated by Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, as ES users are > able to put pretty much whatever they desire into a From header. As > stated previously, it may or may not be from Bonita. > > If it is from Bonita.Montero@gmail.com, fine. If not, and > Bonita.Montero@gmail.com is an address active and assigned to another > Gmail user, there may be a basis for forgery complaint. We are familiar with Bonita in comp.lang.c++. Yes, she posted it. No, it was not a troll - it was a somewhat snarky response to what she thought was a mixed up post by Muttley. There are plenty of people here who dislike some of Bonita's habits - but I have no doubts at all that she genuinely believed Muttley had written that rambling essay for rec.arts.books, and had accidentally cross-posted it to comp.lang.c++. I thought so too, when I first saw it - people accidentally posting to the wrong group is much more common than server glitches. Bonita is guilty of blindly quoting an entire OT post and top-posting a one-line comment on it. That's not good Usenet etiquette. But it was not trolling, forgery, or intentional misrepresentation - and I do not like to see anyone falsely accused of that. It is correct that Muttley did not write the original essay - and it is therefore incorrect for Bonita's post to have the attribution "Muttley wrote ...". But that attribution is because the newsserver Bonita used, news.eternal-september.org, had attached the essay message body to the overview header of a post Muttley /did/ write. > ÖT> BM probably made it up. I can find no server with "quoted" post. > > As demonstrated, _this_ was the glitch. It involved neither software > nor hardware. This was a wetware glitch, likely based on a search in > the wrong newsgroup.. Incorrect. Again, people who are not using news.eternal-september.org did not see the quoted post. People who use news.eternal-september.org, did see it. > >> There are limits to how much I can "show you" what happened. > > You don't have much to show me, then, do you? > I later found I could show you more - including a screenshot for your convenience. >> But I can describe things in as much detail as practical. > > Your descriptions must be taken with a grain of salt, as I am unable > to verify your interpretation. > No salt is needed. Unless you have already jumped to a conclusion and are unwilling to look at evidence and information, then you should have realised that my experience of the post is different from yours. This should lead to a line of inquiry of /why/ it is different. Was it a temporary thing? Something local to my computer? An issue with my newsreader client, or with the server I used? How many people saw what I saw, how many saw something different? What are the common factors distinguishing the groups? Of course, that requires you to be of the "Sometimes I don't know everything" and "Sometimes different people see different things" schools. Being of the "Show me" school doesn't help if you are not willing to look when people show you. I had already figured out, before the thread was cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.usenet, that this was a server glitch that had not propagated to all servers - though I did not know at the time that it was found only on the one news.eternal-september.org server. >> I use news.eternal-september.org as a Usenet server, with Thunderbird as >> the client. > > Both are irrelevant. Nope. Wrong again. It quickly became clear that the client did not matter - it was coincidence that the three people who saw the mismatched post used Thunderbird. But the /server/ - that is critical. > >> I am currently looking at the thread with subject "Re: >> Compute Unique Numbers in a Set" started (via a cross-post from >> comp.lang.c) on 08.01.2023. > > This is a different thread. It is completely unrelated to my > examination, here. It is a different thread, yes. It is absolutely critical to the matter, as it is in /that/ thread that the mismatched post appeared. You'd know that if you followed my suggestions and looked for yourself. > >> It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the >> news.eternal-september.org server. > > I'm not seeing it. Say it again, that's sure to change my response. It is quite clear that there has been a glitch on the news.eternal-september.org server. You can look at Sn!pe's post, and the link he has to a message from the admin of that server, discussing the glitch on the server. I am really hoping your response has changed by now. > >> Somehow, a message body from rec.arts.books has been crosslinked, was >> delivered as though it matched the normal-looking pre-downloaded header in >> the thread. (I'm guessing Muttley actually made a post in the original >> thread, but I am unable to see the real message body.) > > Please see my headers, regarding invalid assumptions. > > There was no link, beyond a Subject change in the X-posted troll. > >> The glitch appears to be limited to news.eternal-september.org - other >> users of that server have said they saw it, while it did not appear on >> other servers. People have reported the existence of the rambling essay >> post in rec.arts.books, made by Ilya Shambat - it was a real post, but on >> news.eternal-september.org the message body was accidentally attached to >> the wrong header summaries for comp.lang.c++. > > Show me. (While I have access to several Usenet servers, I do not > have an account with Ray.) Right. So the one server where there is a problem that you could easily see, you have not looked at. And yet you feel confident in claiming there is no problem with that server. The issue is still there - I checked anew with a fresh pan installation on a different machine. You have to connect to the server you claimed is irrelevant, and look at the thread you claimed is irrelevant. Or is "Show me" just a mantra to you, rather than something you actually want? > >> Usenet server glitches are rare - client glitches are more likely. The >> same glitch occurring for at least three different people is, however, >> highly unlikely. And the idea that Bonita would jumped through hoops to >> repost some random post from another group but made to look like it came >> from Muttley so that she could comment on it - it's ridiculous. > >>> I recommend a visit to an optician. > >> I recommend you either listen to what happened, or bow out of this >> conversation. It is possible that you have experiences or knowledge that >> could help explain things - but if you think you know all the answers >> before you've heard the question, there's no point in commenting. > > You're here, theoretically in order to learn from my experience and > expertise. I read headers. I try to steer clear of idle speculation. And yet you are idly speculating that I am wrong, every piece of evidence and guidance I gave is irrelevant, and that your experience and expertise lets you pronounce judgements without looking at what has happened. No, /I/ did not come to this group for your expertise and experience. Someone else in comp.lang.c++ made the cross-post, hoping for ideas. Sn!pe's post is an example. Now, I am sure you have plenty of expertise and experience in Usenet and the servers - I just use it, I don't run a server. However, it seems this particular case is outside your experience - /you/ have the chance to learn here. That's great, of course, if you are open to it. None of us are so good at anything that we can't learn more. It turns out that what appears to be your usual investigative process, with a focus on message ids, let you down in this case. > > You were trolled. Get over it. > You were wrong. Learn from it.
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