Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference"

From	Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference"
Date	2022-09-13 06:47 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<tfp92n$dv$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <tfk690$1vj6$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tfk90g$1sbl3$1@dont-email.me> <tfkalm$1mt8$1@gioia.aioe.org> <tfkhid$1t2tl$1@dont-email.me> <tfkvo9$km1$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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In comp.lang.c++ Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 13:42:20 +0200
> Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Am 11.09.2022 um 11:44 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
>>
>>> The necessity is for a language that can have embedded assembler, is very
>>> efficient to compile and once compiled and is explicit. Because of this
>>> C++'s hidden conversions, exceptions and most of the STL can be ruled
>>> out which doesn't leave much left thats an advantage over C.
>>
>>That all isn't a problem in the kernel if you know what you do.
>>Kernel-Programmers are very skilled and the should be able to
>>handle that, but it's not up to their mindset.
> 
> Its nothing to do with their mindset, its to do with knowing EXACTLY what the
> code is going to do and/or where the program counter is going to go. There
> is nothing to fall back on to tidy up any fuckups and no C++ runtime to hold
> your hand.

You seem to think that the Linux kernel has some kind of extraordinarily
strict requirement in terms of what the code is doing, at the lowest level,
so that it's always absolutely clear exactly what the CPU is doing at any
given moment, what the values of registers (especially the instruction
pointer) are, and so on.

You seem to be painting kernel code as something that it actually isn't.
There's nothing particularly special about kernel code. The vast majority
of it is just pretty normal C code with no special requirements. You
don't need to know "where the program counter is going to go". Why
would you? For what reason? If an interrupt happens, then registers are
stored as normal and then restored.

(The only peculiar limitation in kernel code is that you can't use the
standard C library for anything, because most of it cannot work at the
kernel level, especially at boot time before any partitions have been
mounted and thus no dynamically loadable libraries can be used. However,
this just limits your use of the standard library, for practical reasons
rather than "you need to always know where the program counter is going
to go". The kernel offers alternatives for most of the standard library
utilities that are useful in kernel code.)

Thread

"Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-09-09 12:49 -0500
  Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-09 19:03 +0000
  Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-10 18:16 +0200
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-10 17:04 +0000
      Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-11 08:29 +0000
      Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-09-24 16:24 +0200
        C++ is for real, C is just a toy (Was: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference") gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-09-24 15:54 +0000
          Re: C++ is for real, C is just a toy (Was: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference") Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-24 18:07 +0200
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-11 08:29 +0000
      Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 11:16 +0200
        Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-11 09:44 +0000
          Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 13:42 +0200
            Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-11 15:44 +0000
              Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 17:55 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-11 16:17 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 18:22 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 12:41 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-12 06:10 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-09-12 00:27 -0700
              Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-09-12 09:18 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-12 09:42 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-09-12 12:05 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-12 12:12 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-09-24 16:31 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-12 15:58 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-12 18:48 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-09-12 20:32 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-13 13:27 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-09-13 22:33 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-14 06:04 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-09-14 10:38 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-14 12:21 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-15 12:15 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-16 06:02 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-16 10:37 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-16 11:05 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-16 13:18 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-16 16:00 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-16 15:16 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-18 12:13 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-19 05:45 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-19 08:33 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-19 10:41 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-19 13:48 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-19 15:22 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-16 13:10 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-19 05:51 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-19 12:27 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2022-09-16 11:19 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-16 06:56 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-16 14:29 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-16 17:04 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-16 08:24 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-09-16 09:00 -0700
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2022-09-15 00:54 +0100
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-15 05:31 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2022-09-15 10:19 +0100
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-22 12:41 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 09:16 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-09-14 10:29 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 15:55 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-09-16 20:16 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2022-09-16 16:55 -0500
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-16 22:21 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2022-09-17 14:52 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-19 06:06 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-18 12:34 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-18 12:22 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-19 06:11 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-19 10:14 +0200
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-14 12:12 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-14 15:58 +0200
              Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-13 06:47 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-13 13:29 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-14 05:56 +0000
                Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-09-14 09:37 +0000
          boost::intrusive. Was: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-11 09:51 -0700
            Re: boost::intrusive. Was: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 18:55 +0200
        Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-09-11 16:26 +0000
          Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 18:35 +0200
        Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Opus <ifonly@youknew.org> - 2022-09-12 19:22 +0200
          Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2022-09-22 19:24 +0000
  Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-10 12:56 -0700
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-10 15:53 -0700
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 07:07 +0200
      Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-11 16:17 -0700
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-09-11 13:50 +0200
      Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2022-09-11 05:53 -0700
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-09-12 05:47 +0000
  Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2022-09-11 00:01 +0100
    Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-09-10 16:26 -0700
  Re: "Richard Stallman Announces C Reference" legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2022-09-22 19:21 +0000

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