Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #82060

Re: I think references should have been const by default

From	Bart <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: I think references should have been const by default
Date	2021-10-24 23:11 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<sl4lmt$5jf$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <sl0nmu$bn3$1@dont-email.me> <sl0qcj$sub$1@dont-email.me> <sl1e73$sl7$1@dont-email.me> <sl1igc$qvn$1@dont-email.me> <sl3bg8$ce5$1@dont-email.me>

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On 24/10/2021 11:11, David Brown wrote:
> On 23/10/2021 19:58, Bart wrote:

>> I don't do anything with these at the minute (I think 'out' and 'inout',
>> not shown, are just aliases for '&') but they can do a lot just as
>> annotations.
>>
> 
> People can write code in a lazy way (or perhaps an old way), and this
> can cause some inconveniences in using it along with code written in
> newer and better ways.  That's true in general - it is not special for
> C, nor special for "const" in C.
> 
> Your solution to C's const problem (as you see it), is to have a
> language where you can distinguish between pointers which cannot be used
> to change the data, and pointers which /can/ be used to change the data.
>   As long as people use these correctly in your language, or Pascal, or
> Ada, everything works correctly.
> 
> That's fine - and a good idea.
> 
> It is /exactly/ the same as is done in C.  "void f1(char *)" is like an
> "inout" parameter, and "void f2(const char *)" is like an "in" parameter.
> 
> Using "char *" as a parameter in C when it is read-only data is exactly
> like using "inout" parameters in Ada or Pascal, or "ichar s" in your
> language - it is lazy, unhelpful, and it stops people using it for
> constant data (without extra effort).
> 
> Therefore, I simply don't understand what you have against "const" in C
> - your own language is almost identical except for minor syntax differences.

I've played around with C-style readonly type attributes in the past. I 
didnt't like them. It disrupts the type system (see the fuss about how 
_Generic should work) and it didn't give the necessary protection.

'const' in C only affects one level of a complex type. It doesn't 
affects those parts not specified (like the members of a struct type, or 
rather those values at the other side of an embedded pointer type, which 
is not itself const).

I want 'readonly' to protect an entire data structure, especially one 
that is otherwise mutable that is passed to a function, by only 
specifying one thing.

Now, I haven't fully implemented such an attribute (I've only reserved 
syntax like 'let' and 'in'), I just know how I'd like it to work.

That is, propagate down deep into the data structure. I think that is 
possible. I don't think it would be part of the type system; it's likely 
to be a property of an expression.

Thread

I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-21 05:23 +0000
  Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-21 08:54 +0200
    Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-21 09:48 +0000
      Re: I think references should have been const by default Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-10-21 12:55 +0300
      Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-21 12:57 +0200
        Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-21 13:40 +0000
          Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-21 15:04 +0100
            Re: I think references should have been const by default Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-21 16:41 +0200
              Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-21 14:57 +0000
            Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-21 14:51 +0000
            Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-21 12:09 -0400
              Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-21 23:49 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-21 16:21 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-22 16:14 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-22 12:04 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-22 20:47 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-22 13:29 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-23 11:54 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-23 11:22 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-23 12:35 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-10-23 13:23 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-23 13:57 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-10-23 21:02 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-23 15:07 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-23 21:15 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-23 21:12 -0700
              Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-22 11:13 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-22 19:18 -0400
            Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-22 04:41 +0000
              Re: I think references should have been const by default Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-10-23 21:30 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-25 04:51 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-10-26 00:53 +0100
            Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-22 09:46 +0200
              Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-22 15:48 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-23 12:21 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-23 12:06 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-23 18:45 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-23 18:58 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-24 12:11 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-24 23:11 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-10-24 16:18 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-25 00:58 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-25 08:21 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-25 09:47 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-10-25 12:33 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-25 14:19 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-25 10:59 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-25 17:56 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 11:11 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-26 17:15 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 06:41 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-25 16:14 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-25 13:14 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 08:18 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-26 12:39 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-10-26 14:29 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-26 15:11 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-26 09:49 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-26 18:38 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-26 11:20 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-26 20:32 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-26 22:18 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-27 04:43 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-27 08:29 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 06:32 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-11-01 06:12 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-11-01 08:53 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-01 11:26 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-11-02 16:19 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-02 12:54 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-11-02 23:49 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-11-03 00:38 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 14:36 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-26 15:55 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 15:26 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-26 20:35 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-27 04:44 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 11:27 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 10:31 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 14:42 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 11:22 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 15:30 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 12:23 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 12:51 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 14:34 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-26 12:57 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-27 07:57 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-27 08:47 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-27 14:29 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-28 05:17 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-28 09:30 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-29 04:47 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-29 05:11 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-29 08:40 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-11-01 06:15 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-27 11:07 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-27 14:30 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-27 15:46 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-10-27 16:13 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-27 11:39 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-27 15:51 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-10-27 17:21 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-28 09:29 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-28 11:20 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-27 12:26 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2021-10-31 09:22 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-11-01 00:13 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-28 05:20 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-27 23:10 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-28 09:30 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-29 04:51 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-29 08:39 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-11-01 06:34 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-10-27 17:41 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-27 19:02 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2021-10-27 18:21 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-27 11:38 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default JohnnyCameLater@whatsthetime.net - 2021-10-27 15:49 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-27 12:36 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-27 04:57 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-25 18:19 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 10:48 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 08:21 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-26 08:37 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 09:02 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-26 11:14 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 14:35 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-27 05:01 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 06:34 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 10:43 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 15:21 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-26 22:32 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-27 05:04 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 10:42 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 14:48 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 11:52 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-26 10:22 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-26 10:27 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 14:06 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-10-29 06:45 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-29 11:11 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-04-25 07:39 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-04-25 10:59 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-26 05:29 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-26 08:53 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-26 08:23 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-26 08:40 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-26 05:18 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-10-26 09:07 +0200
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-26 11:03 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-25 10:39 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 10:56 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-25 10:30 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-25 14:39 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-25 11:05 -0400
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-25 12:45 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-10-26 11:20 -0700
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-25 05:00 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-10-25 12:13 +0100
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-26 05:36 +0000
                Re: I think references should have been const by default Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-25 16:58 +0200
    Re: I think references should have been const by default "daniel...@gmail.com" <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2021-10-22 12:28 -0700
  Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-21 09:12 +0000
    Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-21 09:52 +0000
      Re: I think references should have been const by default RacingRabbit@watershipdown.co.uk - 2021-10-21 10:36 +0000
        Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-22 04:45 +0000
    Re: I think references should have been const by default James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-10-21 12:07 -0400
  Re: I think references should have been const by default Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2021-10-21 12:18 +0300
  Re: I think references should have been const by default Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:13 +0200
    Re: I think references should have been const by default Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2021-10-21 15:08 +0200
    Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-22 04:45 +0000
      Re: I think references should have been const by default Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2021-10-22 07:55 +0200
        Re: I think references should have been const by default Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-22 11:21 +0000
  Re: I think references should have been const by default "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2021-10-21 13:22 +0200
    Re: I think references should have been const by default Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2021-10-22 04:48 +0000
  Re: I think references should have been const by default Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-10-21 13:57 +0200
  Re: I think references should have been const by default Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@icloud.com> - 2021-10-21 21:27 +0000
  Re: I think references should have been const by default Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2021-10-24 14:20 +0000

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