Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh
Date	2020-01-07 08:28 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<qv1bug$2dr$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <uj921f9ih223fneb5b70qj76nap03omq1k@4ax.com> <qusegp$1lkt$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sca41flpc6no0b156ounhkiqaokmjdf2ii@4ax.com> <qutccm$mci$1@dont-email.me> <9j851fhqe4focdnq2uie27brr8n7icpj2h@4ax.com>

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On 06/01/2020 04:07, Robert Wessel wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 20:11:17 +0100, David Brown
> <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/01/2020 19:31, Robert Wessel wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 10:41:29 +0000 (UTC), boltar@nowhere.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 04 Jan 2020 18:02:10 -0600
>>>> Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:43:10 +0000 (UTC), boltar@nowhere.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 03 Jan 2020 10:09:04 -0600
>>>>>> Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 09:25:32 +0000 (UTC), boltar@nowhere.org wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 01 Jan 2020 09:09:32 -0600
>>>>>>>> Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 09:13:25 +0000 (UTC), boltar@nowhere.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Variable length C99 arrays arn't in the C++ standard but I've yet to come
>>>>>>>>>> across a C++ compiler that didn't support them either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> MSVC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fair enough, but last time I used it a few years back MSVC didn't support
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> features of modern C++ either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An important difference is that MS for a long time has intended to
>>>>>>> fully support modern C++ (that it often took some time get everything
>>>>>>> done is not really relevant), but has explicitly decided *not* to
>>>>>>> support C99 and later.  That's changed a smidgen, of late, and will
>>>>>>> VLAs no longer being mandatory,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're not? Figures, aside from variadic macros they're the only thing in
>>>>>> C99 that I found useful.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> C11 made both complex support and VLAs optional.  Complex was already
>>>>> optional in C99 for freestanding implementations, C11 extended the
>>>>> dispensation to hosted implementations.
>>>>
>>>> Complex has a very niche use case so I can understand that, but VLAs are very
>>>> useful if just writing plain C and can't be hard to implement so I don't
>>>> understand the decision to make them optional.
>>>
>>>
>>> If so, only because most folks who needed complex numbers moved on to
>>> C++ (or rolled their own support in C long ago, and have not replaced
>>> that).
>>>
>>> And don't be so quick to condemn a facility *you* don't happen to use
>>> as "niche".  In my experience there is *far* more use of complex
>>> numbers in C than VLAs.  Admittedly only part of that is done with the
>>> native C complex type.
>>>
>>
>> I think it is extremely difficult to guess which features are more or
>> less used, and any attempts will be very biased based on the area of
>> experience of the guesser.  With that proviso, I'd be surprised if
>> complex types really were used more than VLAs.
> 
> 
> I'm not going to take much of a position on the usage of the native C
> complex type, given the slow pickup of C99, it really never got a huge
> amount of traction, but it is there.  On the other hand, plenty of
> folks have done complex arithmetic in C my rolling their own
> functions.
> 

Fair enough.

> 
>>> On the other hand, VLAs present considerable implementation
>>> difficulties on some small systems, and present a number of issues
>>> with regards to stack growth on all implementations that make people
>>> wary of them.
>>
>> I disagree.  I don't see that VLA implementation would be particularly
>> difficult (in small systems or otherwise).  And while it is absolutely
>> correct that you need to be careful about stack use before using them,
>> you don't need more care than you should be taking for any other kind of
>> non-variable local array, or for any other kind of memory allocation.
> 
> 
> For very small systems, especially ones where recursive calls are also
> difficult to support, VLAs may well present some challenges.

VLA's need a calculation for the total size, adjusting the stack 
pointer, perhaps a frame pointer for other local data, and calculations 
for indexing the array.  None of this is particular to VLA's - any 
system that can implement C in general can implement VLA's.

VLA support can be inefficient - if you have a limited 8-bit 
accumulator-based device with poor "sp + offset" and other addressing 
modes, then the code will be painfully slow.  But these kinds of devices 
(like 8051's) are painfully slow for recursive or re-entrant calls, 
local arrays, and many other types of code.

> 
> In the more ordinary case, I think VLAs doe present an additional
> challenge to stack management, since the frame size required by a
> function is now at the mercy of its callers.  That at least
> theoretically creates some new paths for storage overlays and the
> like.

Nah, no problem - at least, not a /new/ problem.  On devices where you 
have awkward memory overlays or page limits, you have exactly the same 
issues with large local data, even if you know the size.  Either you say 
"you can't have a local stack frame bigger than X bytes" and make a 
limited C compiler, or you say "large local stack frames are allowed but 
really inefficient", or you let the programmer choose through options 
and/or annotations or pragmas.

And if you have "alloca" support, as most reasonable C compilers do, you 
have almost all the bits anyway.

> 
> I'm not sure it's as big a deal as some people made it out to be, but
> there are a few new pitfalls there.
> 

Of course it is extremely difficult and challenging to write a good C 
compiler for such limited devices.  But VLA's pose few /new/ challenges. 
  Anyone capable of writing a decent code generator for C without VLA's 
could extend it to cope with VLA's - of that I have little doubt.  The 
only real complications I can see would be if you have jumps (gotos, 
switches, longjmp) that jump around VLA declarations - but again, the 
compiler already has to deal with such messes with normal variables. 
(Some may still decide not to support them due to the time and effort 
involved, which is fair enough.)

> 
>>>
>>> Complex support does require some compiler support, but it's just
>>> another data type.  The actual implementations of the basic functions
>>> is pretty trivial, and for small systems can be dumped in a library
>>> where it won't get linked if it's not used, so it has no impact on
>>> small systems.
>>>
>>
>> I don't imagine C's complex number support would be that hard to
>> implement either.
>>
>> I really don't understand why these were made optional in C11.  Who is
>> going to make a compiler that is C11 compliant but not C99 compliant?
>> Who is going to be capable of making a C11 compiler but find supporting
>> VLA's or complex numbers a major issue?
> 
> 
> My point exactly.  I don't even understand why complex was optional in
> C99 for freestanding implementations.

My guess there is that it was to avoid bigger libraries.  Not all 
toolchains are smart enough to skip library functions that are not used, 
at least in all cases - it is not an uncommon problem in small embedded 
development that you accidentally end up with a large floating point 
library linked into your code.  Complex support would make this even worse.

> 
> 
>> I doubt if their lack will cause a big problem for many people - but
>> sometimes they can be convenient.

Thread

Don't be fooled by cpp.sh woodbrian77@gmail.com - 2019-12-13 21:28 -0800
  Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-14 09:23 +0000
    Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2019-12-14 17:19 +0000
      Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-14 09:54 -0800
        Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh woodbrian77@gmail.com - 2019-12-14 12:00 -0800
          Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-14 13:51 -0800
            Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-14 22:19 +0000
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-14 16:13 -0800
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-12-15 15:35 +0000
        Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-14 22:17 +0000
          Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-14 16:03 -0800
            Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-15 15:41 +1300
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-14 22:55 -0800
            Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-15 09:53 +0000
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-15 11:18 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-15 16:44 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-15 20:49 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-15 15:11 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-15 23:28 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-15 15:41 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-16 05:18 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-16 10:46 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-16 09:57 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-16 10:21 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-17 09:37 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-17 15:13 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-17 14:12 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-17 19:35 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-18 16:14 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-17 08:32 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-18 16:26 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-18 19:11 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-18 11:23 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-18 11:31 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-18 19:56 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-19 08:42 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-19 20:26 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-20 09:25 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-20 04:35 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-20 16:28 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-20 10:36 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-21 16:33 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-21 09:11 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-21 17:22 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-21 10:18 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2019-12-21 21:21 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-21 14:30 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2019-12-22 21:36 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-22 15:05 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-22 17:03 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibble@i42.removethisbit.co.uk> - 2019-12-22 17:46 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-22 18:07 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-23 16:23 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibble@i42.removethisbit.co.uk> - 2019-12-23 16:33 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-23 16:46 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-23 18:51 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-23 17:02 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-23 19:17 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-24 09:49 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-24 02:16 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-25 00:30 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-26 09:46 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-26 16:38 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-26 17:33 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-26 19:52 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-27 17:14 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-27 09:41 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-28 12:05 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-28 21:01 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-29 09:00 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-29 12:21 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-29 18:30 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-29 21:45 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-30 10:10 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-30 14:03 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-30 12:17 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-30 04:39 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-30 13:01 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-30 15:17 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 14:22 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-30 16:49 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 17:18 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-30 18:12 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 18:16 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-30 18:38 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 19:17 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-30 20:55 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 03:13 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 13:01 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 13:13 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 14:09 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 14:12 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 15:39 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 15:45 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-31 15:22 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 17:16 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 17:51 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 17:59 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 18:21 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 18:35 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 18:51 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 18:59 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-31 12:23 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 16:14 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 16:52 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-31 18:58 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 18:00 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-31 19:21 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 18:22 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 18:46 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-31 20:30 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 19:44 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 08:10 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-11 13:03 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2020-01-12 07:50 +1300
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-11 11:55 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-11 23:59 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-01 23:04 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-01-04 20:04 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 13:36 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-01-06 18:39 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 16:16 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-31 17:01 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-01 17:34 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-01 23:09 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 03:29 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 19:37 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-31 11:19 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 13:14 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 16:06 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-30 05:39 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-30 16:39 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-31 09:25 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-31 12:00 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-31 16:10 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-31 16:42 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-01 09:07 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-01 15:48 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 09:24 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-02 12:02 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 10:52 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2020-01-02 13:27 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 16:45 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2020-01-02 16:55 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 17:24 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-01-02 18:30 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-03 09:40 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-02 22:58 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-02 22:28 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-02 22:56 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-02 22:20 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-03 14:53 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-03 17:22 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-04 12:45 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-03 09:01 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-03 10:29 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-03 21:05 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 08:46 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-10 09:51 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 14:59 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-31 19:06 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-31 14:06 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 13:38 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-31 16:13 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibble@i42.removethisbit.co.uk> - 2019-12-31 17:06 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-01 09:09 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-31 18:11 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-01 09:13 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-01 09:09 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 09:25 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-03 10:09 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-04 12:43 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-04 18:02 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-05 10:41 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-05 12:31 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-05 20:11 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-01-05 11:22 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-05 21:07 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-01-05 20:40 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-01-06 18:08 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-01-06 23:17 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-07 08:37 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 14:51 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-07 08:28 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 14:19 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-01 23:15 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 09:33 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-01-02 12:16 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-31 18:14 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 19:16 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-31 18:48 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-31 12:29 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-01 09:17 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-30 16:32 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-12-30 14:57 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-31 09:23 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-30 22:16 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-12-30 20:30 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 21:12 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2019-12-30 20:07 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 13:50 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2020-01-01 08:11 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2020-01-02 09:28 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 21:26 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-29 11:31 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-29 18:35 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibble@i42.removethisbit.co.uk> - 2019-12-29 18:40 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-30 10:12 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 14:10 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-29 12:11 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-29 22:20 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-30 01:23 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-30 15:54 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibble@i42.removethisbit.co.uk> - 2019-12-30 17:07 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-30 19:58 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Chris Vine <chris@cvine--nospam--.freeserve.co.uk> - 2019-12-30 23:59 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-30 21:23 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-28 18:09 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibble@i42.removethisbit.co.uk> - 2019-12-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-27 17:17 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-27 09:58 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-28 12:06 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-28 08:39 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.org - 2019-12-28 16:57 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Pavel <pauldontspamtolk@removeyourself.dontspam.yahoo> - 2020-01-02 23:18 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-26 10:54 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-26 22:50 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-26 10:38 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh woodbrian77@gmail.com - 2019-12-24 17:52 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-24 23:53 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh woodbrian77@gmail.com - 2019-12-25 08:51 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-25 10:54 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh woodbrian77@gmail.com - 2019-12-21 08:42 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-21 09:25 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-18 11:28 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-18 20:00 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-18 22:12 +0200
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-19 08:47 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-30 14:03 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-18 09:47 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-18 11:49 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-18 12:05 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-18 12:19 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-16 21:13 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-17 09:38 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-12-17 09:14 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-17 17:50 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 09:35 +0100
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-15 20:48 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-16 09:55 +0000
            Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-15 11:12 +0000
            Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-15 06:53 -0800
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-15 16:48 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-15 09:10 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-15 18:33 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-12-15 19:29 +0000
              Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-15 23:38 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-15 21:23 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-15 21:36 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-15 21:43 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 09:44 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-12-16 12:10 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 16:21 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-12-16 10:54 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 10:47 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-16 11:19 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 21:15 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 22:23 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-17 09:31 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-12-16 23:23 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2019-12-16 21:45 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2019-12-16 23:20 -0600
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2019-12-17 21:56 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 22:06 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 19:42 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 11:56 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 21:18 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-12-16 21:03 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-17 00:04 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-12-17 01:06 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-17 14:51 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-16 07:25 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-12-16 14:13 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 16:32 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 10:52 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 21:24 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-16 10:56 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-12-16 20:45 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-16 22:00 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-12-17 04:07 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-17 15:00 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-12-17 14:44 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-17 15:54 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-12-17 15:52 +0000
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-17 11:51 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-17 22:10 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-17 22:08 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-18 08:56 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-01-10 08:29 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-17 23:55 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-18 09:36 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 22:29 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-16 22:40 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-16 07:17 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-15 21:24 -0800
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2019-12-16 12:13 +0100
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-16 07:44 -0500
                Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-16 18:53 -0800
          Re: Don't be fooled by cpp.sh boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-15 09:49 +0000

csiph-web