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Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software"

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software"
Date 2019-12-11 16:01 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <qsr0cd$30k$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <qs3qep$qbe$1@dont-email.me> <qsp1hq$rc6$1@dont-email.me> <qsqe3v$h50$1@gioia.aioe.org> <%15IF.254330$P72.31730@fx30.am4>

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On 11/12/2019 13:11, Bart wrote:
> On 11/12/2019 09:49, boltar@nowhere.co.uk wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 21:09:24 +0000
>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2019 13:12, boltar@nowhere.co.uk wrote:
>>>> Are you talking about NT here or some reliable and fast OS that MS
>>>> never
>>>> released? Win NT was a blue screening, slow joke of an OS and
>>>> frankly I'd
>>> have
>>>> expected better from people who worked on VMS.
>>>
>>> After using Windows 3.1 (the 16 bit one) Windows NT 3.1 was a breath of
>>> fresh air. It just kept running. It really didn't crash (except when our
>>> HW was broken, and since we were developing it that did happen).
>>
>> Perhaps I was spoilt - I went straight from 8 bit at home to unix at
>> university
>> so I was used to using HP-UX and Solaris at 21. Then I was introduced to
>> Windows. It was like going from a Ferrari to a Lada
> 
> My experience was the opposite. I didn't think a great deal of Windows,
> which to my mind simply got in the way (compared to my previously using
> MS/PC-DOS for ten years where you had direct control of a lot more of
> the hardware).
> 
> But trying out Linux every few years, Windows always looked and felt
> solidly professional by comparison. On Windows, things just worked
> (mouse, USB, printers, internet, display), whereas on Linux during the
> 90s,  these rarely worked properly, or worked badly, or had to be coaxed
> into working via configuration files.

There is a /huge/ difference between HP-UX, Solaris, Sun-OS, AIX, etc.,
and Linux - especially at the time in question.  Linux these days is
strongly supported by big companies in all senses (big companies use it,
big companies supply it, big companies provide support, big companies
make sure their hardware and software works with Linux, etc.).  But in
the days of Win 3.1 and NT 3.x, Linux was very much a "do it yourself"
system for people who were willing to get their hands dirty.

The big unixes were a different world, however.  You did not buy a
random "PC compatible" and try to run Solaris on it - you got a Solaris
workstation, such as SPARCStation, and used that.  Often, you used it on
a network - a serious Ethernet network with a proper server, not a
little "LANtastic" setup.  The hardware was a world ahead of the PC
world in terms of quality, speed, and features - and a different world
in terms of price.

I went from mainly 8-bit systems (Spectrum and BBC micro), to SunOS then
Solaris at university, and then to Windows 3.1.  I have to agree with
Boltar - going to Windows after Solaris was huge leap backwards in both
hardware and software.  The SPARCStations had vastly better screens and
graphics than anything you got in the PC world - and if you needed more
screen space, you logged into the computer next to you and treated its
screen as an extension to your own.  (The network transparency of X
might make it poor for 3D graphics and videos, but was excellent for
that kind of thing.)  Virtual desktops were standard in the *nix world
over 30 years ago, and only with Windows 10 is there a limited version
in the Windows world.

The Windows world has never been close to the Unix world in terms of
quality, solidity, or professionalism.

> 
> And even when the display worked, it looked dreadful, like a cheap 80s
> home computer. That's probably not surprising considering Windows was
> backed by a multi-billion dollar company, and supported by multitudinous
> hardware vendors, while Linux was hacked together by amateurs in their
> spare time, it seemed. (And with dozens of different distributions.)
> 
>> so I was used to using HP-UX and Solaris at 21.
> 
> If you were writing software for use by the general public, then Windows
> machines were obtainable anywhere at any PC store, all ready to go.
> 
> That was a huge advantage compared to having software relying on obscure
> workstations (where did you even buy such a thing).
> 
> I suspect such machines were more expensive too.
> 

Of course they were more expensive.  They were worth more, and did more.
 But they were used by companies (and universities) willing to pay for
their tools, rather than those that wanted the cheapest machines they
could get and didn't care how much time and effort was wasted with
reboots, reinstalls, crashes, crappy hardware, crappy software, etc., -
or by companies that knew workstations were better but couldn't afford
them, or when they needed hardware or software that only existed in the
Windows world.  Anyone with the choice would have gone for a Unix
workstation over Windows.

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Thread

"Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2019-12-02 13:59 -0600
  Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-02 12:33 -0800
    Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-02 21:17 +0000
      Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-12-02 23:08 +0100
      Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-02 15:39 -0800
        Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Daniel <danielaparker@gmail.com> - 2019-12-10 13:55 -0800
          Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-12-11 12:48 -0800
  Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Pankaj Jangid <p4j@j4d.net> - 2019-12-03 09:21 +0530
    Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-03 02:03 -0300
      Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-12-03 09:40 +0000
        Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-03 11:40 +0100
          NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software") gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2019-12-03 11:33 +0000
            Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-03 16:24 +0100
              Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software") Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2019-12-03 17:13 +0100
            Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software") Stuart Redmann <DerTopper@web.de> - 2019-12-04 14:32 +0100
              Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-04 16:53 +0000
                Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-12-04 18:34 +0000
                Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-05 12:51 +0000
            Re: NIHS (Was: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software") legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2019-12-08 04:21 +0000
      Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-03 17:05 -0800
  Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-12-06 22:12 -0800
  Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-12-07 07:28 +0100
  Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" rep_movsd <rep.movsd@gmail.com> - 2019-12-09 07:57 -0800
    Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-09 11:03 -0600
      Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-12-09 17:08 +0000
        Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-09 11:39 -0600
          Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2019-12-09 18:26 +0000
            Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-09 15:50 -0600
              Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-10 15:09 +1300
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-09 20:30 -0600
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-10 09:06 +0100
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-10 03:58 -0600
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-10 11:18 +0100
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-10 05:37 -0600
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-10 15:49 +0100
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-10 11:43 -0600
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2019-12-10 10:19 -0800
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-10 12:50 -0600
          Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-10 13:12 +0000
            Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-12-10 13:54 +0000
              Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-12-10 17:22 +0200
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-10 15:35 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Cholo Lennon <chololennon@hotmail.com> - 2019-12-10 15:17 -0300
            Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-10 11:32 -0600
            Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2019-12-10 21:09 +0000
              Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-11 09:49 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-11 03:13 -0800
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-11 11:20 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl> - 2019-12-11 12:57 +0100
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-12-15 23:27 -0500
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-16 10:02 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2019-12-11 14:17 -0800
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2019-12-11 12:11 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-11 12:42 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-11 16:01 +0100
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-11 16:15 +0000
      Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-09 22:16 +0000
        Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-09 16:25 -0600
          Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2019-12-09 16:35 -0600
            Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Ned Latham <nedlatham@woden.valhalla.oz> - 2019-12-09 17:19 -0600
            Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-10 11:09 +0100
              Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-10 13:17 +0000
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-12-10 15:55 +0100
                Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" boltar@nowhere.co.uk - 2019-12-10 15:26 +0000
    Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2019-12-09 22:16 +0000
    Re: "Microsoft Exploring Rust as the Solution for Safe Software" Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2019-12-09 16:33 -0600

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