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Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #122534
| From | minforth <minforth@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.theory, comp.lang.c, comp.lang.c++ |
| Subject | Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation |
| Date | 2025-08-14 18:54 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mg6in1Fjba1U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | <107h7ug$3ms6e$1@dont-email.me> <107k0cf$b0bl$1@dont-email.me> <107kn0t$3u79i$1@dont-email.me> <107kr6n$h9gl$1@dont-email.me> |
Cross-posted to 3 groups.
Am 14.08.2025 um 16:17 schrieb olcott:
> On 8/14/2025 8:06 AM, James Kuyper wrote:
>> On 2025-08-14 02:40, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> What exactly is “self-evident” supposed to mean? Please explain.
>>
>> It means that the message providing the answer contains, in itself, all
>> the evidence anyone needs to easily determine that the answer is true.
>> In practice, it is often used when the answer is not actually true.
>> Compare with a "no-brainer", where, in practice, the decision is almost
>> always not the one that would be chosen if the brain were fully engaged.
>
> <Input to LLM systems>
> Simulating Termination Analyzer HHH correctly simulates its input until:
> (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern: abort simulation and
> return 0.
> (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated "return" statement: return 1.
>
> typedef int (*ptr)();
> int HHH(ptr P);
>
> int DD()
> {
> int Halt_Status = HHH(DD);
> if (Halt_Status)
> HERE: goto HERE;
> return Halt_Status;
> }
>
> What value should HHH(DD) correctly return?
> <Input to LLM systems>
>
> *The above was self-evident to three LLM systems*
> I still find that it is absurd that no one here can
> figure out something as simple as recursive simulation.
>
> Three different LLM systems figured out that the execution
> trace of DD correctly simulated by HHH does match the
> *recursive simulation non-halting behavior pattern*
> on their own without prompting that such a pattern even exists.
>
> The simulation shows DD calling HHH(DD) repeatedly
> This creates an infinite recursive loop in the simulation
> No simulated execution path leads to DD's return statement
> being reached
> https://claude.ai/share/da9e56ba-f4e9-45ee-9f2c-dc5ffe10f00c
>
> In other words, simulating DD() requires simulating
> HHH(DD), which requires simulating DD() again… recursive
> simulation.
>
> This creates an infinite regress — HHH cannot finish
> simulating DD() because to simulate it, it must simulate
> itself again, and again, and again…
> https://chatgpt.com/share/68939ee5-e2f8-8011-837d-438fe8e98b9c
>
> When HHH simulates DD, it must model DD's execution,
> including the call to HHH(DD) within DD.
> This introduces a recursive simulation: HHH simulating
> DD involves simulating DD's call to HHH(DD), which
> requires HHH to simulate DD again, and so on.
>
> https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtMg%3D%3D_810120bb-5ab5-4bf8-af21-
> eedd0f09e141
>
>
This whole thread is sheer nonsense. Your summer too hot??
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How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 00:30 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 09:55 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Rice's Theorem is now Rice Krispies olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-13 15:30 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-14 06:40 +0000
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 10:18 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2025-08-14 09:06 -0400
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-14 09:17 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation minforth <minforth@gmx.net> - 2025-08-14 18:54 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 09:35 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 09:16 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 16:26 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-08-23 15:41 +0100
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 17:10 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 23:30 +0800
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 18:46 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 09:52 +0800
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 04:29 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 10:41 +0800
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 12:09 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 22:29 +0800
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 23:30 +0800
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 10:32 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-08-23 17:46 +0000
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 12:52 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:21 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl> - 2025-08-24 09:35 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 10:25 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 15:33 +0000
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:23 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 16:41 +0000
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:56 -0500
Re: Measuring the actual behavior of the actual input to HHH(DD) olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-30 10:08 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 18:46 +0200
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Mr Flibble <flibble@red-dwarf.jmc.corp> - 2025-08-23 16:48 +0000
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-23 11:57 -0500
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Recursive simulation Dr. Who <dr.who@invalid.invalid> - 2025-08-23 15:15 +0000
Re: How is this answer not self-evident ? --- Kaz olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-08-15 07:01 -0500
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