Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c++ > #83965

Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ?

From Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ?
Date 2022-05-06 17:05 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87bkwa8x46.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <t5192j$kud$1@dont-email.me> <8735hnohzi.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <t52msn$64k$1@dont-email.me> <87sfpn7wz2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <t534c8$c7b$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> writes:

> On 6 May 2022 12:54, Ben wrote:
>> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On 5 May 2022 22:13, Ben wrote:
>>>> "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5 May 2022 13:56, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, 5 May 2022 at 12:50:26 UTC+3, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> Juha Nieminen <nos...@thanks.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Paavo Helde <ees...@osa.pri.ee> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I have hard time finding any use case at all for std::list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I was working at the university here I once had to implement
>>>>>>>>> (a rather complicated and advanced) algorithm (which had something to
>>>>>>>>> do with graph manipulation) which required a doubly-linked list. No other
>>>>>>>>> data container would have done the job because the speed of the algorithm
>>>>>>>>> relied on the ability to splice linked lists (and sections of them).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That being said, std::list couldn't be used for this, especially now
>>>>>>>>> that std::list::splice() is not an O(1) operation (which would pretty
>>>>>>>>> much defeat the purpose).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's O(1) in C++11, 14 and 20 (at least in the public drafts).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It has 6 overloads. Most are O(1) but one case where we transfer iterator
>>>>>>> range from other list to this list is linear in length of said range.
>>>>>> Obviously, but that's surely not what the OP was talking about.  That
>>>>>> one could never have been, and will never be O(1).
>>>>>
>>>>> With the choice of potentially O(n) `.size()`, instead of the silly
>>>>> C++11 decision, all splicing overloads could be O(1) and `std::list`
>>>>> could have been useful for something.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the word "now" was used, that was surely what was being mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously. ;-)
>>>> How much of your post does the smiley apply to?  I don't want to waste
>>>> everyone's time...
>>>
>>> I guess you're unfamiliar with the history. The fight was about the
>>> guaranteed complexity of `.size()`. With O(1) complexity a splice has
>>> to count the number of spliced nice, which turns a simple O(1) link
>>> manipulation into O(n) counting.
>> I'm familiar with the trade-off in abstract (since it crops up every
>> time one implements a list as was so common in days gone by), but I did
>> not know there had been a fight about it in C++.
>> 
>>> The academic idealists won, the practically oriented people lost, and
>>> `std::list` became useless.
>> Curious that you put it like that.  There doesn't seem to be anything
>> obviously idealistic in opting for O(1) size and linear splicing for
>> "foreign" sub-lists.  I don't recall ever wanting that form of splice,
>> so I would consider C++'s choice quite practical (for me).  What makes
>> this the "idealists" preferred option?
>
> E.g. as Howard Hinnant put it some time before C++11, in an article at
> <url: https://howardhinnant.github.io/On_list_size.html>:
>
> ❝As the standard is written today, none of the containers are required
> to have an O(1) size(). I believe that this should be corrected in
> C++0X. [Expressing an academic ideal:] If a container has a size()
> member, it should be required to have O(1) complexity. [Again
> expressing an academic ideal:] If a container can not manage this, it
> should not have a size() member at all. Clients can always compute
> distance(begin(),end()).❞
>
> The inline square brackets notes are my annotations.
>
> In the article Howard makes a number of to me dubious claims and
> presents a misleading feature sheet, where the reader is led to
> compare number of alleged advantages for O(1) and O(n) `.size()`. I'd
> say that kind of misleading argument indicates that in this matter he
> represented an academic view. But possibly that reflects my personal
> impression of academics (I've held an academic position but I didn't
> really fit in).

Seems odd.  The paper appears to be motivated entirely by practical
concerns and Howard Hinnart is not an academic.  He does not even have a
CS degree (that's not criticism, just a point against your idea that it
espouses an academic idealist's view).

But the main point is that he is proposing the exact opposite of what
you cited as the academic idealist position that won the day.  Have I
misinterpreted something somewhere?

-- 
Ben.

Back to comp.lang.c++ | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-03 15:16 +0000
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-03 16:39 +0100
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-03 16:12 +0000
      Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-05-03 20:25 +0200
        Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-05-03 12:00 -0700
        Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-04 10:50 +0000
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-03 16:14 +0000
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Jack Lemmon <invalid@invalid.net> - 2022-05-03 17:33 +0100
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-03 19:13 +0200
      Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-04 09:13 +0000
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-04 10:45 +0000
      Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-05-04 14:09 +0300
        Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Frederick Virchanza Gotham <cauldwell.thomas@gmail.com> - 2022-05-04 14:39 -0700
          Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? red floyd <no.spam.here@its.invalid> - 2022-05-04 15:17 -0700
            Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-05 01:57 -0400
          Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2022-05-05 09:12 +0300
        Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-05 06:17 +0000
          Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-05 10:49 +0100
            Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-05 04:29 -0700
              Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-05 12:56 +0100
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 21:37 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-05 21:13 +0100
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 10:39 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 11:54 +0100
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 14:29 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 17:05 +0100
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-06 10:22 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 22:18 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 13:51 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-07 08:41 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 12:33 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-07 16:12 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-07 09:37 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-09 09:02 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-05-09 12:14 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-09 15:36 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-09 11:56 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-09 16:18 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-09 09:38 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-10 15:55 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-10 13:28 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-10 10:16 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-10 18:40 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-10 19:50 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-12 05:44 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-12 17:24 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-05-12 20:11 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-12 12:53 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-12 22:53 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-13 18:34 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-13 23:46 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-14 11:43 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-05-15 07:48 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-16 03:30 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-15 22:57 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-05-17 05:30 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-05-17 05:19 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-16 05:46 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2022-05-17 05:37 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? wij <wyniijj2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-12 08:05 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-09 17:20 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-05-09 12:05 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bo Persson <bo@bo-persson.se> - 2022-05-09 21:57 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? wij <wyniijj2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-09 13:56 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-09 08:33 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-09 11:56 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-09 18:13 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-10 10:14 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-10 14:31 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 18:38 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-07 18:28 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-05-08 18:37 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-05-08 11:50 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2022-05-08 18:18 -0400
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-07 09:45 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 19:12 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-07 20:36 -0700
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-05-08 08:26 +0200
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-05-06 13:55 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-06 06:35 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 11:29 +0100
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-09 04:58 +0000
                Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2022-05-08 22:30 -0700
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-05-03 14:41 -0700
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Andrea Venturoli <ml.diespammer@netfence.it> - 2022-05-04 08:20 +0200
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? wij wij <wyniijj2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-04 03:21 -0700
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-04 10:52 +0000
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2022-05-04 10:47 +0000
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2022-05-04 10:53 +0000
  Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 05:46 +0200
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 07:31 +0200
    Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 14:20 +0200
      Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 14:23 +0200
        Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 14:26 +0200
          Re: Anyone ever used vector<bool> ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2022-06-01 14:40 +0200

csiph-web