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Re: Why does this work on Xcode ???

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"Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> writes:

> On 22.08.2019 19:28, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>
>>  You are
>> very much swimming upstream here:  do you really want to say you are
>> smarter than all the people who have participated in the C and C++
>> working groups to standardize these languages?

I am still in the process of reading through the cascade of
downstream messages, but I wanted to respond to this one item
and try to get it out of the way.

> There are 3 main things wrong with that statement:
>
> * The idea that I'm arguing a view at odds with the standard.  I'm
> not.  Check how many in this group agree with your view of UB:  that's
> 0.

The comment of mine quoted above has nothing to do with undefined
behavior or your ideas about it.  You have misunderstood the context
of the comment.

> * The idea that /if/ one believes the standard is sub-optimal or
> wrong, one must believe that one is smarter than all the people blah
> blah.  If that were the case then all those non-committee members who
> have filed Defect Reports against the standard, must be megalomaniacs
> who think they're very very smart.  That's just not so.

First, I never said you think you're smarter than everyone who
has worked on the C or C++ standards.  Second, I never said
someone who thinks the Standard is flawed in some way (and thus
in contradiction to all the committee members who have worked on
it) must be wrong about that.  You have misheard me.  ISTM that
often what you hear doesn't match what I said;  whether or not
it happens often, it did happen in this case.

As regards defect reports, several items are worth noting.  One,
most defect reports are filed by people either who are on the
committee or who have spent extensive time working with them.
Two, a lot of defect reports are responded to by saying, in
essence, "this isn't a problem, the standard is fine."  (I don't
know what the percentages are, for any of the classes of filers.)
Three, most defect reports involve issues that are odd corner
cases in one way or another, and probably just got overlooked.
In contrast, the notion of observable behavior is a core issue,
and undoubtedly one that has been given a lot of attention and
serious thought.  The people who worked on C89-C99 are by nature
a practical, pragmatic bunch, and not particularly given to
academic flights of fancy.  Given that the notion of observable
behavior (not the name, but the ideas behind it) has survived
essentially unchanged to the present day, the idea that it is
impractical or overly academic in nature is rightly regarded
with some skepticism.  And that's all I was saying.


> * It's a purely social argument.

It isn't a social argument;  rather it is an argument of
technical competence and one reflecting the nature of the people
who worked on the early C standards.

If anything, your argument that my ideas about undefined behavior
must be wrong because no one in comp.lang.c++ agrees with me is
a social argument.  Even if it were true (which it isn't) that no
one here agrees with me, comp.lang.c++ is a social collection of
people, as are the subsets that choose to participate in various
threads and topics.  So if anyone is making a social argument,
it's you.

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Thread

Why does this work on Xcode ??? Bob Langelaan <bobl0456@gmail.com> - 2019-07-16 22:03 -0700
  Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2019-07-17 08:46 +0300
  Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-07-17 00:06 -0700
    Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-07-17 01:44 -0700
  Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2019-07-17 07:46 +0000
  Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-07-17 09:12 -0400
  Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-07-17 17:01 +0200
    Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Mr Flibble <flibbleREMOVETHISBIT@i42.co.uk> - 2019-07-17 22:15 +0100
      Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-07-17 23:29 +0200
        Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2019-07-19 08:27 +0200
          Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-07-19 09:09 +0200
            Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-07-19 09:24 +0200
            Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-10 11:18 -0700
              Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-10 21:05 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-22 10:28 -0700
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-22 19:50 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-08-22 23:45 +0100
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-23 07:22 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2019-08-23 13:12 +0100
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-23 16:02 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-09-18 08:50 -0700
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-08-23 09:28 -0400
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-23 16:37 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-23 23:07 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2019-08-23 19:10 -0400
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-24 06:49 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-08-23 19:49 -0400
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-24 06:45 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-25 12:06 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-25 13:25 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-25 15:11 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-25 17:12 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-25 23:32 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-26 11:51 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-26 13:26 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-25 11:36 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? "Alf P. Steinbach" <alf.p.steinbach+usenet@gmail.com> - 2019-08-25 13:27 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2019-08-25 15:15 +0200
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2019-08-26 00:43 -0400
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-24 04:58 -0700
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-26 09:53 -0700
                Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-28 18:03 -0700
          Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2019-07-19 00:20 -0700
          Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-09 07:41 -0700
      Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2019-08-24 19:49 +0200
    Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2019-07-21 11:41 +0000
      Re: Why does this work on Xcode ??? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2019-08-10 09:29 -0700

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