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Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct"

From Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++, comp.lang.c
Subject Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct"
Date 2012-10-22 15:08 +0000
Organization Friends of the Galactic Collective
Message-ID <55nV5E.95v.TjMTe@gmail.com> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <aee54mFnpi3U5@mid.individual.net> <k5u7jr$ffo$1@dont-email.me> <k6077s$hb0$3@speranza.aioe.org> <k60n5p$lvb$1@dont-email.me> <k62v7b$oav$1@speranza.aioe.org>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 08:13:31AM +0000, Juha Nieminen wrote:
> In comp.lang.c++ James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> wrote:
> > In any event, your summary of my argument dropped the key point - that
> > the greater complexity of C++ provides more temptations for incompetent
> > programmers to generate overly complex code than C does.
> 
> My experience makes me disagree with the the last part. I would say that
> the limiting "simplicity" of C causes many incompetent programmers to
> create horrible code (much of which is caused *because* C is so archaic.)

C maps relatively cleanly to the architecture of the stored program
computer, at least for a non-SMP design.  The language doesn't try
to do a whole lot behind the scenes in making the language primitives
work, except in cases where native types are too small for the
language types, and then the math has to be simulated with those
narrower instructions.  In this sense it is conceptually minimalistic.
 
> Many C advocates argue that the "simplicity" of the language somehow
> induces people to make straightforward, clear, simple and efficient
> implementations. That's not what I see at all. Instead, what I see
> quite often is really complicated code with tons of implied coding
> conventions (that exist solely to address things like memory management
> issues), and which is quite frankly horribly designed. Just take almost
> any C project out there and study its source code. You'll easily find
> 400+ LOC functions (with little to no comments), that use lots of
> repetition and/or are really obfuscated, oftentimes riddled with gotos,

I like gotos.  They make the recovery from an error conditions much
easier to handle.  Some of the code I have written would suck utterly
if it were translated to a C that lacks the goto construct.  I was
once caught up in the "GOTO Considered Harmful" theology, and my code
suffered accordingly.  Judicious use of the statement is entirely
reasonable in C.

> and so on and so forth. They often also suffer from inefficiency because
> the programmer did a "straightforward" job at implementing the task at
> hand.

Coding is not a science and nor is it a serious engineering discipline
for the vast majority of programmers.  Most of the time, a programmer
of average skill will write something that works well enough for the
problem at hand.  Adding functionality or capabilities to such code
later may be difficult or a practical impossibility, but it may be
that the original writer was not given enough time, or expertise was
not available in the design phase, to build something extensible.

Part of the problem is the tool set.  C comes with a standard library
that encourages a certain style of coding.  If you want an event-
driven architecture, a different language is probably going to be a
better choice.

The language provides tools to make calculations with numbers,
control-flow constructs to make decisions based on the value of the
numbers, constructs to encourage a modular program design, and an
interface to the operating system for input/output, etc.  Everything
else is up to the programmer.

> I'm not saying that *every* C program out there is like that. I'm saying
> that quite a significant portion of them are. There's nothing in C that
> would somehow induce or encourage people to make good code.

It's not the job of the language to "induce" good code.  What is "good
code" anyhow?  Is good code easy to read and understand?  Is good code
merely correct?  Is good code elegant and pretty?

At any rate, good is a subjective quality.  What may be good to a
five-year old will be different from what an adult will consider as
good.  You seem to be saying that you know what good is when you see
it, but I doubt you can define what you mean in terms that everyone
will understand.



Regards,

Steve Thompson

-- 
GOTO's are like guns.  Safety is entirely contingent on the user.

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C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" gus gassmann <gus@nospam.com> - 2012-10-17 06:49 -0300
  Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2012-10-17 13:08 +0200
    Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-17 08:19 -0400
    Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-10-17 15:19 +0000
    Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" gus gassmann <gus@nospam.com> - 2012-10-17 18:47 -0300
      Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-10-17 22:46 +0000
        Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-18 07:13 +0000
      Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-17 18:58 -0400
        Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-18 09:55 +0200
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-10-18 10:13 +0200
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-18 08:23 +0000
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-10-18 11:17 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-18 23:37 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 15:35 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-19 11:40 -0700
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-18 21:45 +1300
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 15:03 +0100
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-18 07:18 -0400
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-18 17:43 +0200
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2012-10-18 13:52 -0700
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-19 21:34 +1300
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-19 11:03 +0200
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-20 14:03 +0100
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 09:27 +0000
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-19 13:43 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 12:46 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-10-19 10:14 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2012-10-19 14:53 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-19 13:52 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-19 14:13 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 21:24 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-20 11:47 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 21:22 +0000
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandClement.com> - 2012-10-19 11:21 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 21:29 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-19 18:53 -0400
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-20 12:13 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-20 05:55 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-20 13:24 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-10-20 12:54 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-20 06:45 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-21 09:20 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-10-20 22:28 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:05 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 02:23 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:32 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2012-10-21 11:56 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 12:54 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ptyxs <kerloch@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 13:43 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 03:37 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-26 07:33 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:14 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:08 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-20 13:44 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-21 09:09 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-10-20 22:31 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 02:11 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-21 20:28 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:40 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 13:31 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-22 08:41 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 16:24 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-21 15:05 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-22 07:52 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-22 14:02 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 03:41 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-26 07:53 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-26 09:51 -0400
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-26 13:48 -0400
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-10-26 07:35 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2012-10-26 18:42 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-10-27 04:21 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-27 05:04 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2012-10-27 08:06 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-10-27 06:50 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2012-10-27 11:13 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-10-27 12:02 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2012-10-27 15:46 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" ImpalerCore <jadill33@gmail.com> - 2012-10-27 20:24 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-10-27 20:11 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:43 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-27 13:52 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-27 14:40 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" google@ianshome.com - 2012-10-23 12:03 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:35 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-27 14:24 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:36 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:08 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 02:51 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-21 21:09 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-21 12:16 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-21 11:55 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 13:47 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-22 08:46 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 03:02 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-22 08:04 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Tobias Müller <troplin@bluewin.ch> - 2012-10-21 18:54 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-22 08:49 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Tobias Müller <troplin@bluewin.ch> - 2012-10-21 20:07 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-21 13:53 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-22 09:54 +1300
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 02:41 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Tobias Müller <troplin@bluewin.ch> - 2012-10-22 06:12 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-10-22 20:52 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-22 16:30 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-23 11:22 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-10-23 16:58 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 02:22 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:30 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-20 09:06 -0400
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-20 07:43 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:11 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-21 11:56 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-21 07:43 -0400
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2012-10-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-22 08:13 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2012-10-22 15:08 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-22 14:42 -0400
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-21 10:12 +0100
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-20 13:24 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:16 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2012-10-21 13:57 -0500
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-22 08:17 +0000
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-20 22:41 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-10-21 01:04 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:23 +0000
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-10-21 19:33 +0000
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Greg Martin <greg@softsprocket.com> - 2012-10-21 13:20 -0700
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2012-10-23 15:44 +0000
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-10-23 20:01 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Stuart <DerTopper@web.de> - 2012-10-24 12:01 +0200
                Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Dombo <dombo@disposable.invalid> - 2012-10-24 20:31 +0200
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-20 06:13 -0700
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-21 07:25 +0000
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-27 05:54 -0700
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Old Wolf <oldwolf@inspire.net.nz> - 2012-11-11 14:58 -0800
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" gof@somewhere.invalid (Adam Wysocki) - 2012-11-12 10:33 +0000
      Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-10-18 12:19 +1300
    Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-18 07:06 +0000
      Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2012-10-18 11:36 +0200
        Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 09:28 +0000
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Noob <root@127.0.0.1> - 2012-10-19 12:07 +0200
            Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" gus gassmann <gus@nospam.com> - 2012-10-19 08:03 -0300
              Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201210.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-10-20 07:14 +0200
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-19 06:58 -0400
  Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-17 08:29 -0400
  Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-10-17 08:35 -0400
    Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-17 08:49 -0400
    Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-18 07:10 +0000
      Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-10-18 12:11 -0700
        Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2012-10-19 09:30 +0000
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-10-19 03:05 -0700
          Re: C/C++ question about dynamic "static struct" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-10-19 07:37 -0400

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