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Random data compression

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  Random data compression James Youlton <youltonjames@gmail.com> - 2022-10-20 06:35 -0700
    Re: Random data compression TheVoiid <dioveht@home.nl> - 2022-10-21 02:32 -0700
      Re: Random data compression Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-10-21 12:48 -0700
    Re: Random data compression Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2022-10-26 22:24 +0300
      Re: Random data compression James Youlton <youltonjames@gmail.com> - 2023-02-20 08:09 -0800
        Re: Random data compression Mihai Cartoaje <mcartoaje@gmail.com> - 2023-02-27 03:28 -0800

#4055 — Random data compression

Hi, I'm looking for discussions about compressing random bit streams.  For example, "Can you win by betting on random coin tosses?", where the arguments typically follow the reasoning, "No matter what you bet, on average, you'll win half the time, so you will break even", which I consider defeatist since if you play 'unlimited double up', the outcome is effectively, "Heads, you win, and tails, you break even".  Essentially, you don't need to know what the outcome of next toss will be, only that there will be a next toss.

Is there somewhere that folks sill discuss these things?

James

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#4056

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 3:35:55 PM UTC+2, youlto...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I'm looking for discussions about compressing random bit streams. For example, "Can you win by betting on random coin tosses?", where the arguments typically follow the reasoning, "No matter what you bet, on average, you'll win half the time, so you will break even", which I consider defeatist since if you play 'unlimited double up', the outcome is effectively, "Heads, you win, and tails, you break even". Essentially, you don't need to know what the outcome of next toss will be, only that there will be a next toss. 
> 
> Is there somewhere that folks sill discuss these things? 
> 
> James

You can discuss it at: https://encode.su/

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#4057

TheVoiid <dioveht@home.nl> writes:
> On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 3:35:55 PM UTC+2, youlto...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi, I'm looking for discussions about compressing random bit
>> streams. For example, "Can you win by betting on random coin
>> tosses?", where the arguments typically follow the reasoning, "No
>> matter what you bet, on average, you'll win half the time, so you
>> will break even", which I consider defeatist since if you play
>> 'unlimited double up', the outcome is effectively, "Heads, you win,
>> and tails, you break even". Essentially, you don't need to know what
>> the outcome of next toss will be, only that there will be a next
>> toss.
>> 
>> Is there somewhere that folks sill discuss these things? 
>> 
>> James
>
> You can discuss it at: https://encode.su/

Why not discuss it here?

Like most Usenet newsgroups, activity here has fallen off, but someone
could still start an interesting discussion.

I'll note that encode.su links to the FAQ for this newsgroup:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/compression-faq/part1/section-8.html

QUOTE:
    9.1 Introduction

    It is mathematically impossible to create a program compressing without loss
    *all* files by at least one bit (see below and also item 73 in part 2 of this
    FAQ). Yet from time to time some people claim to have invented a new algorithm
    for doing so. Such algorithms are claimed to compress random data and to be
    applicable recursively, that is, applying the compressor to the compressed
    output of the previous run, possibly multiple times. Fantastic compression
    ratios of over 100:1 on random data are claimed to be actually obtained.

    Such claims inevitably generate a lot of activity on comp.compression, which
    can last for several months. Large bursts of activity were generated by WEB
    Technologies and by Jules Gilbert. Premier Research Corporation (with a
    compressor called MINC) made only a brief appearance but came back later with a
    Web page at http://www.pacminc.com.  The Hyper Space method invented by David
    C. James is another contender with a patent obtained in July 96. Another large
    burst occured in Dec 97 and Jan 98: Matthew Burch <apoc@pipeline.com> applied
    for a patent in Dec 97, but publicly admitted a few days later that his method
    was flawed; he then posted several dozen messages in a few days about another
    magic method based on primes, and again ended up admitting that his new method
    was flawed. (Usually people disappear from comp.compression and appear again 6
    months or a year later, rather than admitting their error.)

    Other people have also claimed incredible compression ratios, but the programs
    (OWS, WIC) were quickly shown to be fake (not compressing at all). This topic
    is covered in item 10 of this FAQ.
END QUOTE

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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#4058

James Youlton <youltonjames@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi, I'm looking for discussions about compressing random bit streams.
> For example, "Can you win by betting on random coin tosses?", where
> the arguments typically follow the reasoning, "No matter what you bet,
> on average, you'll win half the time, so you will break even", which I
> consider defeatist since if you play 'unlimited double up', the
> outcome is effectively, "Heads, you win, and tails, you break even".
> Essentially, you don't need to know what the outcome of next toss will
> be, only that there will be a next toss.

What resource of value do you have access to in unlimited quantities?
If you have no such resource, you can't play this strategy.

Phil
-- 
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

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#4192

On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 12:40:45 PM UTC-7, Phil Carmody wrote:
> James Youlton <youlto...@gmail.com> writes: 
> > Hi, I'm looking for discussions about compressing random bit streams. 
> > For example, "Can you win by betting on random coin tosses?", where 
> > the arguments typically follow the reasoning, "No matter what you bet, 
> > on average, you'll win half the time, so you will break even", which I 
> > consider defeatist since if you play 'unlimited double up', the 
> > outcome is effectively, "Heads, you win, and tails, you break even". 
> > Essentially, you don't need to know what the outcome of next toss will 
> > be, only that there will be a next toss.
> What resource of value do you have access to in unlimited quantities? 
> If you have no such resource, you can't play this strategy. 
> 
> Phil 
> -- 
> We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have 
> gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast 
> aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization. 
> -- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

I have access to random bits in essentially unlimited quantities.  Now, for the plan...

James

------

"Insurance play"  If you are 2 ahead, quit with your winnings, else if you are 4 behind, get your 4 back, all at a cost of 1 per play (cost=1 bit (compress or don't compress, then win 2 or break even).  You can't do that in the real world, but this isn't the real world, so you can do things like playing "unlimited double up" that no on in their right mind would bet against.

 333366
 333070
 333120
 332308
 333392
 333558
 333134
 333082
 332928
 333962
 332742
 333248
 333546
 332086
 330558
 332620


        RNG_Randomize()
        For I = 1 To 16
            TB2.Text &= Str(TestMillion_2_4) & vbCrLf
            Application.DoEvents()
            If Abort Then End
        Next


    Function TestMillion_2_4() As Int32

        Dim retval As Int32 = 0
        Dim winLose As Int32, M As Int32

        For M = 1 To 1000000
            winLose = 0
            Do While True
                If (RNG() And 1) = 1 Then
                    winLose -= 1
                    If winLose = -4 Then retval -= 1 : Exit Do
                Else
                    winLose += 1
                    If winLose = +2 Then retval += 1 : Exit Do
                End If
            Loop
        Next
        Return retval

    End Function

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#4204

When I get calls from telemarketers or wrong numbers, I answer, "No se habla espanol."

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