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Groups > comp.arch > #111589 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-05-10 11:38 +0000 |
| Last post | 2025-05-20 18:31 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 219 — 27 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.arch
Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2025-05-10 11:38 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-11 00:04 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-11 13:59 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2025-05-11 07:47 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-11 23:46 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-12 00:30 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 01:19 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-12 02:03 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:34 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2025-05-12 08:05 +0200
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-12 08:41 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:39 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-12 17:14 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-12 22:35 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-12 21:50 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-13 03:03 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-12 23:25 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-13 08:39 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-13 12:55 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-13 07:40 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-13 08:12 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-13 08:33 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-14 00:18 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-13 17:49 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-18 01:35 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-18 14:10 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-18 18:41 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-19 21:46 +0100
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-19 14:58 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2025-05-20 11:22 +0100
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-20 16:38 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-20 20:49 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-19 00:18 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-19 01:13 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-19 23:33 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-20 00:36 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 00:16 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-20 10:49 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 12:42 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-20 11:35 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:29 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 20:08 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 03:46 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-20 20:58 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-21 12:25 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-21 12:47 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-21 17:19 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-21 15:06 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-21 22:19 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 01:51 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> - 2025-05-22 12:12 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 12:39 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 22:41 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 18:36 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-23 13:20 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2025-05-23 12:34 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-23 11:39 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-23 14:21 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-23 15:17 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-23 09:57 -0700
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-23 17:43 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-23 19:26 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-24 15:25 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 12:32 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-24 20:36 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-25 00:45 +0300
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 16:54 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2025-05-26 22:09 +0200
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-24 21:07 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 17:26 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-25 20:24 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-25 20:47 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-25 15:51 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-25 23:23 +0000
Re: recycling "Brian G. Lucas" <bagel99@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 17:17 -0500
Re: recycling George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-25 02:24 -0400
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-23 10:53 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-23 17:03 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-23 12:34 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 00:38 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-24 16:57 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 14:24 -0500
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2025-05-30 09:20 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-24 20:38 +0000
Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-24 16:45 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-05-22 11:32 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-20 20:54 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 05:39 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-20 23:42 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-21 02:08 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-21 13:39 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:57 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-14 13:31 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-14 18:01 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-14 18:12 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2025-05-14 18:45 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-23 00:18 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-23 05:35 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-23 01:09 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-23 12:36 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-23 11:29 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-24 03:17 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-23 08:28 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-23 17:03 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-24 09:23 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-25 18:05 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-25 12:13 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-25 19:36 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-25 21:23 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-26 17:42 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 11:16 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-26 14:58 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-26 19:19 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 21:52 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-27 08:34 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-27 07:34 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-27 16:19 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-27 20:57 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-28 07:47 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-28 14:50 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 08:48 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 08:46 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 12:08 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 09:20 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 12:52 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 10:15 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 14:16 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 13:37 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-28 22:28 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-28 16:00 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-29 14:23 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-29 09:56 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-05-29 01:54 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-28 12:32 -0400
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:36 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:26 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 20:31 +0000
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 13:45 -0700
Re: fuzzy disks, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:24 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-25 19:16 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-25 16:27 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-26 03:01 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-25 23:58 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-26 15:36 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-26 20:14 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-26 07:13 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 07:31 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-05-26 19:20 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 14:12 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-30 01:42 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-29 20:25 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-30 05:53 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-31 12:53 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2025-06-02 18:04 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-03 07:14 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-25 15:21 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 06:46 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-26 16:06 +0300
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 16:30 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 13:00 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 13:04 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 14:15 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 15:20 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 15:40 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 16:02 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 16:07 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-27 18:40 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:28 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:42 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-29 05:10 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 15:31 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2025-05-30 01:17 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-29 15:33 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-27 12:28 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-26 23:12 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-26 23:32 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2025-05-26 19:00 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-05-27 09:43 +0200
Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2025-05-25 20:55 +0000
Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-26 00:07 -0400
Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-26 00:59 -0500
Re: Drive Caches (Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-26 07:13 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-23 22:19 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2025-05-23 20:51 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-17 23:57 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? quadibloc <quadibloc@gmail.com> - 2025-05-19 21:33 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-20 00:43 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-20 13:53 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 13:19 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-20 16:06 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-20 22:11 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? David Schultz <david.schultz@earthlink.net> - 2025-05-20 19:34 -0500
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 01:00 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:34 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-20 21:30 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:39 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 03:41 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-21 12:09 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-21 15:30 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:45 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2025-05-21 07:06 -1000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2025-05-21 17:32 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2025-05-21 07:05 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:48 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2025-05-21 08:23 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-21 14:08 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 02:49 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-22 17:34 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-05-22 17:42 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) - 2025-05-23 01:54 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-22 22:42 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2025-05-22 23:47 -0400
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-05-21 00:32 +0000
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:29 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:04 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 16:49 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-22 18:04 -0700
Re: Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-05-20 18:31 -0700
Page 3 of 11 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 … 11 Next page →
| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 00:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <100j6pq$2fqhj$9@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111673 |
On Tue, 20 May 2025 10:49:54 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Indeed, AFAIK, what we call "HDD cache" is actually just the RAM used by > the embedded CPU inside the drive for its operation. If it were just I/O buffers for operations in progress, that would be fine. The problem is when it keeps data around instead of immediately writing it out, and what’s worse, lies about it, so it tells the OS that the write has completed when it hasn’t.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-20 20:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <100j9e7$2gdpc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111685 |
On 5/20/2025 7:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2025 10:49:54 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> Indeed, AFAIK, what we call "HDD cache" is actually just the RAM used by >> the embedded CPU inside the drive for its operation. > > If it were just I/O buffers for operations in progress, that would be > fine. The problem is when it keeps data around instead of immediately > writing it out, and what’s worse, lies about it, so it tells the OS that > the write has completed when it hasn’t. Note that (with SATA and similar) the OS can request that the drive flush its caches, and (in theory) drive should not respond to more requests until everything has been fully written back to disk. Though, admittedly, I don't have much first-hand experience with interfacing directly with SATA drives.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 03:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <100jib4$2lgt3$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111692 |
On Tue, 20 May 2025 20:08:28 -0500, BGB wrote: > On 5/20/2025 7:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > >> If it were just I/O buffers for operations in progress, that would be >> fine. The problem is when it keeps data around instead of immediately >> writing it out, and what’s worse, lies about it, so it tells the OS >> that the write has completed when it hasn’t. > > Note that (with SATA and similar) the OS can request that the drive > flush its caches, and (in theory) drive should not respond to more > requests until everything has been fully written back to disk. I mentioned elsewhere that a special function was added that was supposed to mean “really flush your caches dammit”. But there is still no way to tell that the drive really does what you demand that it do, and isn’t still lying about it ...
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| From | Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-20 20:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <100jj1u$2fpjs$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111699 |
On 5/20/2025 8:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Tue, 20 May 2025 20:08:28 -0500, BGB wrote: > >> On 5/20/2025 7:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >> >>> If it were just I/O buffers for operations in progress, that would be >>> fine. The problem is when it keeps data around instead of immediately >>> writing it out, and what’s worse, lies about it, so it tells the OS >>> that the write has completed when it hasn’t. >> >> Note that (with SATA and similar) the OS can request that the drive >> flush its caches, and (in theory) drive should not respond to more >> requests until everything has been fully written back to disk. > > I mentioned elsewhere that a special function was added that was supposed > to mean “really flush your caches dammit”. > > But there is still no way to tell that the drive really does what you > demand that it do, and isn’t still lying about it ... Sure there is. Just do a small write to a random location and time it. repeat several times to assure consistent results. Besides, if a disk vendor was foolish enough to not follow the spec and not document that fact, customers would soon find out and that would ruin that vendor's reputation. They wouldn't risk it. -- - Stephen Fuld (e-mail address disguised to prevent spam)
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| From | EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 12:25 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <f9nXP.500263$lbbb.302518@fx18.iad> |
| In reply to | #111702 |
Stephen Fuld wrote: > On 5/20/2025 8:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >> On Tue, 20 May 2025 20:08:28 -0500, BGB wrote: >> >>> On 5/20/2025 7:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>> >>>> If it were just I/O buffers for operations in progress, that would be >>>> fine. The problem is when it keeps data around instead of immediately >>>> writing it out, and what’s worse, lies about it, so it tells the OS >>>> that the write has completed when it hasn’t. >>> >>> Note that (with SATA and similar) the OS can request that the drive >>> flush its caches, and (in theory) drive should not respond to more >>> requests until everything has been fully written back to disk. >> >> I mentioned elsewhere that a special function was added that was supposed >> to mean “really flush your caches dammit”. >> >> But there is still no way to tell that the drive really does what you >> demand that it do, and isn’t still lying about it ... > > Sure there is. Just do a small write to a random location and time it. > repeat several times to assure consistent results. > > Besides, if a disk vendor was foolish enough to not follow the spec and > not document that fact, customers would soon find out and that would > ruin that vendor's reputation. They wouldn't risk it. I suspect some of Lawrence's concerns go back to the Win3.1 days, when HDD could now afford to expand the read/write buffer and improve their performance stats. Because the Parallel ATA interface was synchronous one way drives "improved" their performance stats was to lie and send back a fake ACK to writes until they had enough sectors to make up a whole track. Yes it risked scrambling the file system if one powered off too quick. But I gather DOS/Win3.1 FAT file system would do that enough on its own that the drive wouldn't be blamed. The PATA spec includes commands to enable/disable read look-ahead feature, and enable/disable write cache, but doesn't say what they actually do. Also there are various commands for setting idle mode, standby mode, power down mode, etc. but none say what happens to the cache. I suspect that the HDD manufacturers looked at what drive commands Win3.1 issued when you exited and used those to trigger write back of any pending cached data. When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive.
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| From | EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 12:47 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rtnXP.32249$5Nof.481@fx35.iad> |
| In reply to | #111716 |
EricP wrote: > Stephen Fuld wrote: >> On 5/20/2025 8:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>> On Tue, 20 May 2025 20:08:28 -0500, BGB wrote: >>> >>>> On 5/20/2025 7:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>>> >>>>> If it were just I/O buffers for operations in progress, that would be >>>>> fine. The problem is when it keeps data around instead of immediately >>>>> writing it out, and what’s worse, lies about it, so it tells the OS >>>>> that the write has completed when it hasn’t. >>>> >>>> Note that (with SATA and similar) the OS can request that the drive >>>> flush its caches, and (in theory) drive should not respond to more >>>> requests until everything has been fully written back to disk. >>> >>> I mentioned elsewhere that a special function was added that was >>> supposed >>> to mean “really flush your caches dammit”. >>> >>> But there is still no way to tell that the drive really does what you >>> demand that it do, and isn’t still lying about it ... >> >> Sure there is. Just do a small write to a random location and time >> it. repeat several times to assure consistent results. >> >> Besides, if a disk vendor was foolish enough to not follow the spec >> and not document that fact, customers would soon find out and that >> would ruin that vendor's reputation. They wouldn't risk it. > > I suspect some of Lawrence's concerns go back to the Win3.1 days, > when HDD could now afford to expand the read/write buffer and improve > their performance stats. Because the Parallel ATA interface was synchronous > one way drives "improved" their performance stats was to lie and send back > a fake ACK to writes until they had enough sectors to make up a whole > track. > > Yes it risked scrambling the file system if one powered off too quick. > But I gather DOS/Win3.1 FAT file system would do that enough on its own > that the drive wouldn't be blamed. > > The PATA spec includes commands to enable/disable read look-ahead feature, > and enable/disable write cache, but doesn't say what they actually do. > Also there are various commands for setting idle mode, standby mode, > power down mode, etc. but none say what happens to the cache. > > I suspect that the HDD manufacturers looked at what drive commands Win3.1 > issued when you exited and used those to trigger write back of any > pending cached data. > > When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit > instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was > enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive. A wiki for hobby OS developers says for ATA cache flush that you have to send an explicit E7 command or you can get bads sectors: http://wiki.osdev.org/ATA_PIO#Cache_Flush but the page on ATA commands notes that the E7 Cache Flush command was added for rev ATA-4 which was after the 1994 ATA preliminary specs I was looking at, which says E7 is Reserved. http://wiki.osdev.org/ATA_Command_Matrix So there was a period prior to the E7 command where ATA disks must have inferred when to flush their write cache, and in the true tradition of PC's they probably all did it differently. Thus the legend was born.
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| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 17:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2025May21.191947@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
| In reply to | #111716 |
EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> writes: >I suspect some of Lawrence's concerns go back to the Win3.1 days, >when HDD could now afford to expand the read/write buffer and improve >their performance stats. Because the Parallel ATA interface was synchronous >one way drives "improved" their performance stats was to lie and send back >a fake ACK to writes until they had enough sectors to make up a whole track. AFAIK there was no tagged command queuing in the (P)ATA interface until pretty late in the game (and then it was not used by Linux AFAIK). So if the HDD had waited until the sector was on the platter (and IIRC there was a way to switch the drive to such a synchronous mode), anything that writes to the HDD would have been extremely slow: Wait until the sector is found, write the sector, report success, get the next command that writes the next sector, but now the head is already past the sector and you have to wait for another rotation. By contrast, if you return success as soon as the sector is in the HDD's RAM, the OS can continue sending data, and the HDD can write the data in any order that it deems appropriate; it does not have to wait for a complete track or something, it can start writing right away, and, of course, if there is a sequence of sectors in the cache, write that sequence in one go. I have written a test that checks how much HDDs can reorder writes, and my results are that, for the pattern I tested, there is no bound on the out-of-orderness that the drives exhibit if you don't ask for a barrier or sync. You can find the test software and the results of my testing at <http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/hdtest/> >Yes it risked scrambling the file system if one powered off too quick. >But I gather DOS/Win3.1 FAT file system would do that enough on its own >that the drive wouldn't be blamed. Actually on MS-DOS the usual way to shut down the system was to turn the computer off, or in case of floppy disks to just take them out of the drive after the light has gone out, and the amount of breakage on the file system level was not big. I expect that the file system synced pretty obsessively to achieve that. >When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit >instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was >enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive. SCSI or PATA? - anton -- 'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.' Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7-a594-88a85ac10d20o@googlegroups.com>
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| From | EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 15:06 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <rvpXP.453024$v2h6.266771@fx14.iad> |
| In reply to | #111723 |
Anton Ertl wrote: > EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> writes: >> I suspect some of Lawrence's concerns go back to the Win3.1 days, >> when HDD could now afford to expand the read/write buffer and improve >> their performance stats. Because the Parallel ATA interface was synchronous >> one way drives "improved" their performance stats was to lie and send back >> a fake ACK to writes until they had enough sectors to make up a whole track. > > AFAIK there was no tagged command queuing in the (P)ATA interface > until pretty late in the game (and then it was not used by Linux > AFAIK). So if the HDD had waited until the sector was on the platter > (and IIRC there was a way to switch the drive to such a synchronous > mode), anything that writes to the HDD would have been extremely slow: > > Wait until the sector is found, write the sector, report success, get > the next command that writes the next sector, but now the head is > already past the sector and you have to wait for another rotation. > > By contrast, if you return success as soon as the sector is in the > HDD's RAM, the OS can continue sending data, and the HDD can write the > data in any order that it deems appropriate; it does not have to wait > for a complete track or something, it can start writing right away, > and, of course, if there is a sequence of sectors in the cache, write > that sequence in one go. Which would improve performance for Win3.1, but for WinNT which had a real file system with its own file cache then the synchronous writes would not hurt performance and it gets better reliability. > I have written a test that checks how much HDDs can reorder writes, > and my results are that, for the pattern I tested, there is no bound on > the out-of-orderness that the drives exhibit if you don't ask for a > barrier or sync. You can find the test software and the results of my > testing at > > <http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/hdtest/> > >> Yes it risked scrambling the file system if one powered off too quick. >> But I gather DOS/Win3.1 FAT file system would do that enough on its own >> that the drive wouldn't be blamed. > > Actually on MS-DOS the usual way to shut down the system was to turn > the computer off, or in case of floppy disks to just take them out of > the drive after the light has gone out, and the amount of breakage on > the file system level was not big. I expect that the file system > synced pretty obsessively to achieve that. > >> When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit >> instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was >> enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive. > > SCSI or PATA? > > - anton IIRC it needed a SCSI board for the CD-ROM drive (I don't remember why, I just remember being miffed that I had to buy one) but could use IDE HDD. As the SCSI HDD were the same drives but with a SCSI interface were $100 more expensive, I would have used the IDE. WinNT was developed on MIPS R4000 and ported to 80386/486 later. Those MIPS systems used all SCSI so maybe they hadn't had time to port the CD-ROM drivers to IDE but had ported the HDD drivers to IDE before the beta release.
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| From | George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-21 22:19 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mn1t2k1qpbvdd27uq5v3o8bscpq9efd2qf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #111724 |
On Wed, 21 May 2025 15:06:27 -0400, EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> wrote: >Anton Ertl wrote: >> EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> writes: >>> When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit >>> instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was >>> enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive. >> >> SCSI or PATA? >> >> - anton > >IIRC it needed a SCSI board for the CD-ROM drive (I don't remember why, >I just remember being miffed that I had to buy one) but could use IDE HDD. >As the SCSI HDD were the same drives but with a SCSI interface were >$100 more expensive, I would have used the IDE. > >WinNT was developed on MIPS R4000 and ported to 80386/486 later. >Those MIPS systems used all SCSI so maybe they hadn't had time to port >the CD-ROM drivers to IDE but had ported the HDD drivers to IDE >before the beta release. I think the problem went back farther than that. I recall CD drives [and printers also] running on PC-DOS/MS-DOS in the late 80s using some kind of lobotomized SCSI controllers that would /not/ also work for SCSI HDDs.
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| From | BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-22 01:51 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <100mhts$3b852$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111728 |
On 5/21/2025 9:19 PM, George Neuner wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2025 15:06:27 -0400, EricP > <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> wrote: > >> Anton Ertl wrote: >>> EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> writes: > >>>> When I installed WinNT 3.1 (beta) in 1992 it came with explicit >>>> instructions that HDD must use write-through caching, which was >>>> enabled/disabled by a jumper pin on the drive. >>> >>> SCSI or PATA? >>> >>> - anton >> >> IIRC it needed a SCSI board for the CD-ROM drive (I don't remember why, >> I just remember being miffed that I had to buy one) but could use IDE HDD. >> As the SCSI HDD were the same drives but with a SCSI interface were >> $100 more expensive, I would have used the IDE. >> >> WinNT was developed on MIPS R4000 and ported to 80386/486 later. >> Those MIPS systems used all SCSI so maybe they hadn't had time to port >> the CD-ROM drivers to IDE but had ported the HDD drivers to IDE >> before the beta release. > > I think the problem went back farther than that. I recall CD drives > [and printers also] running on PC-DOS/MS-DOS in the late 80s using > some kind of lobotomized SCSI controllers that would /not/ also work > for SCSI HDDs. I also remember from some early 90s PCs some CD-ROM drives that used some sort of non-standard interface. Typically, they would plug into an ISA card with a cable that was (IIRC) somewhat narrower than a normal IDE cable (I remember it being around the width of a floppy cable; two ends with a direct connection, and no twists, unlike a typical floppy cable which usually has part of the cable twisted). Not entirely sure what it was. Wasn't an IDE/ATAPI CD-ROM though, do know this much at least... Digging more, there was apparently a proprietary 34-pin Sony connector, which does at least resemble what I remember (and some of the drives do look like the drives I remember seeing). What I had seen of SCSI drives was that they typically had somewhat wider ribbon cables (had encountered these a few times as well, *). *: Had once encountered a computer (that at the time was being discarded, but I got it and had it for a while). It had SCSI drives, and also the weirdness that rather than the CPU and RAM being on the motherboard, it was on a riser card (the MOBO was IIRC effectively just card slots, IIRC they resembled 16-bit ISA slots buts with a long extended part on the front; similar to the "VESA Local Bus" IIRC). IIRC, no connectors on the MOBO (apart from power IIRC), all of the external connections (like VGA and mouse/keyboard) being on riser cards. I remember the CPU riser card apparently having dual 486DX's, but from what information I can gather, multi-socket systems weren't a thing with the 486, so don't know what was going on there. Beyond this, was SIMM RAM, and a lot of other stuff you would normally see on the MOBO (excluding connectors). It was a weird machine, I had managed to get Win NT4 installed on it, but I remember I couldn't do much else with it at the time. Also for some unknown reason, while normal 16-bit ISA cards would plug into the slots, they did not seem to be recognized by the OS. Seemingly, there was a lot of weird stuff back when I was young, and sometimes it is difficult to find much information about it (or to confirm that it actually existed). Though, a lot of times, with some digging I can confirm that various weird stuff from my distant past did in fact exist. ...
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| From | Torbjorn Lindgren <tl@none.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-22 12:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <100n4c4$3f1ib$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111733 |
BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
>I also remember from some early 90s PCs some CD-ROM drives that used
>some sort of non-standard interface. Typically, they would plug into an
>ISA card with a cable that was (IIRC) somewhat narrower than a normal
>IDE cable (I remember it being around the width of a floppy cable; two
>ends with a direct connection, and no twists, unlike a typical floppy
>cable which usually has part of the cable twisted).
>
>Not entirely sure what it was. Wasn't an IDE/ATAPI CD-ROM though, do
>know this much at least...
>
>Digging more, there was apparently a proprietary 34-pin Sony connector,
>which does at least resemble what I remember (and some of the drives do
>look like the drives I remember seeing).
The common pre-ATAPI CD-ROM interfaces were SCSI, Panasonic/MKE,
Mitsumi and Sony, early on there was also LSMI/Philips but they
switched to one of the other fairly early. Which of these were most
common isn't easy to tell any longer.
There were cheap dedicated interface cards for all of these but most
people bought them bundled with soundcards which included the correct
interface on it. These cards (both dedicated and on soundcard) were
often PIO-only (instead of DMA) which was fine for a 1/2/4x CD-ROM but
not much else.
Later soundcards often had all three "main" interfaces to reduce the
number of SKUs they need and make it easier for customers, later
soundcards switched to providing a (usually gimped) ATA interface -
which then was removed a few years later as ATA interface was
everywhere already.
Panasonic & Mitsumi uses unkeyed 40-pin cables (unkeyed IDE cables can
be used) while Sony went with the 34-pin floppy cable. In all cases
they were not compatible with actual IDE/ATAPA or floppy cards despite
the cable fitting... Yes, there were multiple incompatible non-IDE/ATA
CD-ROM with 40-pin connectors because OF COURSE...
The soundcard ATAPI headers that replaced them were often usable with
disks with the right drivers but performance was usually not very
good.
>*: Had once encountered a computer (that at the time was being
>discarded, but I got it and had it for a while). It had SCSI drives, and
>also the weirdness that rather than the CPU and RAM being on the
>motherboard, it was on a riser card (the MOBO was IIRC effectively just
>card slots, IIRC they resembled 16-bit ISA slots buts with a long
>extended part on the front; similar to the "VESA Local Bus" IIRC).
>
>IIRC, no connectors on the MOBO (apart from power IIRC), all of the
>external connections (like VGA and mouse/keyboard) being on riser cards.
>
>I remember the CPU riser card apparently having dual 486DX's, but from
>what information I can gather, multi-socket systems weren't a thing with
>the 486, so don't know what was going on there. Beyond this, was SIMM
>RAM, and a lot of other stuff you would normally see on the MOBO
>(excluding connectors).
Could be a Compaq SystemPro[1]? Not sure if there was any other 486
multi-CPU machines that were DOS/Windows (single-CPU) and Windows NT
compatible (IE ruling out Sequent Symmetry).
The daughtercard method isn't restricted to these, IBM used it a lot
on their high-end PS/2 and I've seen it used by someone on pretty much
every generation after, back in the days it wasn't uncommon to run out
of space on the main motherboard.
>It was a weird machine, I had managed to get Win NT4 installed on it,
>but I remember I couldn't do much else with it at the time. Also for
>some unknown reason, while normal 16-bit ISA cards would plug into the
>slots, they did not seem to be recognized by the OS.
If it was an original SystemPro they appear to be A-SMP (due to being
designed around the '386) so not everything can run on the "second"
CPU, perhaps that what you remember?
The SystemPro XL appears to be Compaq's first full ("real") SMP 486
machine, this too appears to have leaned into using daughtercards.
This should behave more like a "normal" multi-socket machine.
Both may well be "first" - Compaq was really leading the field at this
point.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_SystemPro
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-22 12:39 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <100nnrf$3j3bu$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111735 |
On 5/22/2025 7:12 AM, Torbjorn Lindgren wrote:
> BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I also remember from some early 90s PCs some CD-ROM drives that used
>> some sort of non-standard interface. Typically, they would plug into an
>> ISA card with a cable that was (IIRC) somewhat narrower than a normal
>> IDE cable (I remember it being around the width of a floppy cable; two
>> ends with a direct connection, and no twists, unlike a typical floppy
>> cable which usually has part of the cable twisted).
>>
>> Not entirely sure what it was. Wasn't an IDE/ATAPI CD-ROM though, do
>> know this much at least...
>>
>> Digging more, there was apparently a proprietary 34-pin Sony connector,
>> which does at least resemble what I remember (and some of the drives do
>> look like the drives I remember seeing).
>
> The common pre-ATAPI CD-ROM interfaces were SCSI, Panasonic/MKE,
> Mitsumi and Sony, early on there was also LSMI/Philips but they
> switched to one of the other fairly early. Which of these were most
> common isn't easy to tell any longer.
>
> There were cheap dedicated interface cards for all of these but most
> people bought them bundled with soundcards which included the correct
> interface on it. These cards (both dedicated and on soundcard) were
> often PIO-only (instead of DMA) which was fine for a 1/2/4x CD-ROM but
> not much else.
>
> Later soundcards often had all three "main" interfaces to reduce the
> number of SKUs they need and make it easier for customers, later
> soundcards switched to providing a (usually gimped) ATA interface -
> which then was removed a few years later as ATA interface was
> everywhere already.
>
> Panasonic & Mitsumi uses unkeyed 40-pin cables (unkeyed IDE cables can
> be used) while Sony went with the 34-pin floppy cable. In all cases
> they were not compatible with actual IDE/ATAPA or floppy cards despite
> the cable fitting... Yes, there were multiple incompatible non-IDE/ATA
> CD-ROM with 40-pin connectors because OF COURSE...
>
I was remembering the 34-pin cables here. But, yeah, I do remember them
plugged into soundcards, however, trying to look up anything here just
flooded the results with people talking about the 4-pin audio cable.
I remember them being not exactly the same as floppy cables though:
Floppy cables usually had 1 or 2 connections, with the last (or only)
connection having a small section of the ribbon cable cut out and
twisted over (where twist="A:", no twist="B:"). There was no twist in
the CD-ROM cables that I remember.
> The soundcard ATAPI headers that replaced them were often usable with
> disks with the right drivers but performance was usually not very
> good.
>
OK.
By the time of ATAPI CD-ROM drives, these were typically plugged into
the MOBO.
>
>> *: Had once encountered a computer (that at the time was being
>> discarded, but I got it and had it for a while). It had SCSI drives, and
>> also the weirdness that rather than the CPU and RAM being on the
>> motherboard, it was on a riser card (the MOBO was IIRC effectively just
>> card slots, IIRC they resembled 16-bit ISA slots buts with a long
>> extended part on the front; similar to the "VESA Local Bus" IIRC).
>>
>> IIRC, no connectors on the MOBO (apart from power IIRC), all of the
>> external connections (like VGA and mouse/keyboard) being on riser cards.
>>
>> I remember the CPU riser card apparently having dual 486DX's, but from
>> what information I can gather, multi-socket systems weren't a thing with
>> the 486, so don't know what was going on there. Beyond this, was SIMM
>> RAM, and a lot of other stuff you would normally see on the MOBO
>> (excluding connectors).
>
> Could be a Compaq SystemPro[1]? Not sure if there was any other 486
> multi-CPU machines that were DOS/Windows (single-CPU) and Windows NT
> compatible (IE ruling out Sequent Symmetry).
>
It didn't look particularly like either of those (at least, was not a
SystemPro; didn't look anything like that).
I don't remember what it was (if I did, would make it easier to look up).
From what I remember, case was around the height of a tower case, but
around twice as wide, and much the front had a whole lot of side-by-side
5.25" bays (mostly unused) (IIRC, the top part had lights/buttons and
maybe a text LCD screen).
I don't remember the exact color of the case, my memory is drifting
towards a sort of a brownish color.
If anything, at least the Sequent Symmetry was closer in terms of case
color, but very different in terms of the front of the case, but dunno...
Actually:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sequent_Computer_Systems_equipment.jpg
This picture is looking a little closer, just if you pulled the front
panel off to reveal a crapton of 5.25 bays, maybe...
Finding more images of the Sequent machines, I think this may be
somewhere in the right area, at least in terms of general shape and
color. Not a lot of images that I can find. Not yet seen a clear match
though.
Though, in this picture:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sequent_Computer_Systems_machines.jpg
One on the right is giving the "memory tingles". If the front panel pops
off to reveal all the bays behind, very possibly, that particular panel
design (with all the horizontal lines) is also looking familiar (like,
it being some thin plastic thing that just popped off, like they wanted
to hide the drive bays for some reason).
My memory mostly just has directly exposed 5.25 bays though.
So, effectively, the CPU card was around twice the height of an ISA
card. Some of its other cards were also extra tall, though the brackets
for the cards were the usual size.
I think it may have been EISA connectors for all the cards, just with an
extended part. My memory is fuzzy to whether it was ISA or EISA, do
remember either way that normal 16-bit ISA cards did at least fit in the
slots.
Found a listing for a "vaguely similar looking" MOBO/backplane:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/126151370449
Though, I think I remember the extended part being present on pretty
much all of the card slots (rather than just one of them).
But, yeah, this was apparently something that my mom grabbed from a
dumpster sometime around 20-25 years ago, and its fate was that parents
later returned it to a dumpster.
IIRC, there was no sound-card in the thing, which was an annoyance, and
I couldn't get a normal soundcard to work.
> The daughtercard method isn't restricted to these, IBM used it a lot
> on their high-end PS/2 and I've seen it used by someone on pretty much
> every generation after, back in the days it wasn't uncommon to run out
> of space on the main motherboard.
>
Yeah.
The main motherboard in this case, was from what I remember, pretty much
entirely card slots and a power connector. More like some of the
"passive backplane" boards.
>
>> It was a weird machine, I had managed to get Win NT4 installed on it,
>> but I remember I couldn't do much else with it at the time. Also for
>> some unknown reason, while normal 16-bit ISA cards would plug into the
>> slots, they did not seem to be recognized by the OS.
>
> If it was an original SystemPro they appear to be A-SMP (due to being
> designed around the '386) so not everything can run on the "second"
> CPU, perhaps that what you remember?
>
> The SystemPro XL appears to be Compaq's first full ("real") SMP 486
> machine, this too appears to have leaned into using daughtercards.
> This should behave more like a "normal" multi-socket machine.
>
> Both may well be "first" - Compaq was really leading the field at this
> point.
>
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_SystemPro
I don't remember if the second CPU was visible.
I think, once I got NT4 installed, that it may have only seen the first
CPU. At least, NT4 mostly did NT4 things.
I vaguely remember that DOS (or Win9X) didn't really work at all on it.
Like, NT4 being pretty much the only thing I could get to install on it
(and do useful things, like being able to see that the HDD existed; I
think the Win9X installer just couldn't see the HDD or something, which
roadblocked installation pretty fast).
...
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-22 22:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <100o978$3mk15$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111738 |
On Thu, 22 May 2025 12:39:00 -0500, BGB wrote: > But, yeah, this was apparently something that my mom grabbed from a > dumpster sometime around 20-25 years ago, and its fate was that parents > later returned it to a dumpster. Don’t you have regulations, or at least discouragements, against e-waste going to landfill?
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-22 18:36 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <100ocpp$3ni2j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111741 |
On 5/22/2025 5:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2025 12:39:00 -0500, BGB wrote: > >> But, yeah, this was apparently something that my mom grabbed from a >> dumpster sometime around 20-25 years ago, and its fate was that parents >> later returned it to a dumpster. > > Don’t you have regulations, or at least discouragements, against e-waste > going to landfill? This is 'Murica, pretty much everything goes in the trash here... Old computers, old electronics, batteries, ... Paper, plastic, used motor oil, ... It all goes in the trash... There is a bin for recyclables. Ideally, paper and plastic products can go in there. At one point, the city took them away (so any recycling items would also just go in the normal trash), but I think something federal happened here, and the city needed to give people back their recycle cans. I think the garbage people still just empty both into the same garbage trucks though, so it is almost sorta moot... Or, you can burn it, just locally you are required to have a burn-barrel or similar. Elsewhere, practice was just to make a big trash pile in ones' yard and then set it on fire, but around here, the fire department takes a negative view of this (and may come and get on ones' case for not having the fire contained in something like a 55 gallon drum or similar). But, nearby, another relative has a closed in backyard, so can get away with just burning trash in an open bonfire. The neighbors across the fence also do similar, though the smoke isn't great sometimes as they burn a lot of plastic stuff as well (burning plastic and tires and similar makes some nasty smoke; as does burning used motor oil, etc; basically, bad smell and a whole lot of dark black smoke). ... Or, at least, I am not sure how it is in other places. Granted, might be better if more stuff got recycled or similar, but alas...
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-23 13:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <zC_XP.25348$mjgd.11762@fx09.iad> |
| In reply to | #111743 |
BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> writes: >On 5/22/2025 5:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >> On Thu, 22 May 2025 12:39:00 -0500, BGB wrote: >> >>> But, yeah, this was apparently something that my mom grabbed from a >>> dumpster sometime around 20-25 years ago, and its fate was that parents >>> later returned it to a dumpster. >> >> Don’t you have regulations, or at least discouragements, against e-waste >> going to landfill? Yes, in the last two decades. A quarter century ago, not so much. > > >This is 'Murica, pretty much everything goes in the trash here... Nonsense. > Old computers, old electronics, batteries, ... > Paper, plastic, used motor oil, ... > >It all goes in the trash... Nonsense.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-23 14:18 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <Qs%XP.17077$x6q4.7325@fx46.iad> |
| In reply to | #111753 |
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes: >BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> writes: >>On 5/22/2025 5:41 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>> On Thu, 22 May 2025 12:39:00 -0500, BGB wrote: >>> >>>> But, yeah, this was apparently something that my mom grabbed from a >>>> dumpster sometime around 20-25 years ago, and its fate was that parents >>>> later returned it to a dumpster. >>> >>> Don’t you have regulations, or at least discouragements, against e-waste >>> going to landfill? > >Yes, in the last two decades. A quarter century ago, not so much. > >> >> >>This is 'Murica, pretty much everything goes in the trash here... > >Nonsense. > >> Old computers, old electronics, batteries, ... >> Paper, plastic, used motor oil, ... >> >>It all goes in the trash... > >Nonsense. To elaborate. Batteries are collected by retailers (drop 'em off at Ace Hardware). The solid waste company that picks up the trash provides 5gal jugs for used motor oil and bags for used filters (which can also be dropped off at any auto parts store). Paper, plastic, metals (other than styrofoam) are collected and recycled. Old electronics are recycled. Office supply stores accept used printer ink cartridges. Best buy accepts electronics for recycling as do various recyclers that offer drop-off locations.
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| From | jseigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-23 12:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <100q835$5sbu$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111755 |
On 5/23/25 10:18, Scott Lurndal wrote: > > To elaborate. Batteries are collected by retailers (drop 'em off at Ace Hardware). > The solid waste company that picks up the trash provides 5gal jugs > for used motor oil and bags for used filters (which can also be dropped > off at any auto parts store). Paper, plastic, metals (other than styrofoam) > are collected and recycled. Old electronics are recycled. Office supply > stores accept used printer ink cartridges. Best buy accepts electronics > for recycling as do various recyclers that offer drop-off locations. > Here, Staples will take most stuff for recycling though they charge for computer monitors. Apple takes Apple stuff. I recyled an old PPC mini, and a 2010 mini that I had installed ChromeOS Flex on though it was too slow. Way to hard to replace the hdd with an ssd on the 2010 mini. ChomeOS Flex is a nice way to keep old hardware running if you can put in an ssd. I installed on a old Lenovo laptop that even Linux complained it was going to stop supporting the cpu. So now it's a chromebook, a really heavy chromebook. I had a chromebox and a chromebook that had gone out of update support, the old 5 year support. You have to replace the firmware on those which is a one shot try deal (unless you have an eeprom programmer). I bricked the chromebox (I think I know why) but the chromebook worked. Sort of weird since the OEMs just weasel out of supporting stuff that still works. They should be forced to take back stuff that still works and that they won't provide firmware updates for. You can also upgrade those windows 10 boxes that MS says can't be upgraded to windows 11. I upgraded a really old box that didn't even have TPM modules. There's articles online on how to do that. Joe Seigh
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| From | BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-23 11:39 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <100q8nv$5fc7$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #111761 |
On 5/23/2025 11:34 AM, jseigh wrote: > On 5/23/25 10:18, Scott Lurndal wrote: > >> >> To elaborate. Batteries are collected by retailers (drop 'em off at >> Ace Hardware). >> The solid waste company that picks up the trash provides 5gal jugs >> for used motor oil and bags for used filters (which can also be dropped >> off at any auto parts store). Paper, plastic, metals (other than >> styrofoam) >> are collected and recycled. Old electronics are recycled. Office >> supply >> stores accept used printer ink cartridges. Best buy accepts electronics >> for recycling as do various recyclers that offer drop-off locations. >> > > Here, Staples will take most stuff for recycling though they charge for > computer monitors. > > Apple takes Apple stuff. I recyled an old PPC mini, and a 2010 > mini that I had installed ChromeOS Flex on though it was too slow. > Way to hard to replace the hdd with an ssd on the 2010 mini. > > ChomeOS Flex is a nice way to keep old hardware running if you > can put in an ssd. I installed on a old Lenovo laptop that even > Linux complained it was going to stop supporting the cpu. So > now it's a chromebook, a really heavy chromebook. > > I had a chromebox and a chromebook that had gone out of update support, > the old 5 year support. You have to replace the firmware on those which > is a one shot try deal (unless you have an eeprom programmer). I > bricked the chromebox (I think I know why) but the chromebook worked. > Sort of weird since the OEMs just weasel out of supporting stuff that > still works. They should be forced to take back stuff that still > works and that they won't provide firmware updates for. > > You can also upgrade those windows 10 boxes that MS says can't be > upgraded to windows 11. I upgraded a really old box that didn't even > have TPM modules. There's articles online on how to do that. > MS says my PC isn't supported by Win 11, but not terribly inclined to go over to Win 11 (even if it is still a possibility). I have a laptop that is running Windows 7, though it originally came with Vista. Also another older laptop that runs XP (and, even then, barely). Had half considered getting a new laptop at some point, but not found one that "doesn't suck" and is affordable. I prefer the older style (with removable batteries and a lot of IO ports), the newer ones (annoyingly) going for the more "thin and light" thing. It is almost reaching a point though to where if I really need to move off Win10, might just go over to Linux or similar, which has seemingly mostly gotten past the major annoyances of years past. > Joe Seigh >
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-23 14:21 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? |
| Message-ID | <100q0a5$278p$1@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #111753 |
According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>: >>> Don’t you have regulations, or at least discouragements, against e-waste >>> going to landfill? > >Yes, in the last two decades. A quarter century ago, not so much. >> >>This is 'Murica, pretty much everything goes in the trash here... > >Nonsense. It's sort of true. In my town they pick up paper and containers and yard waste at the curb but I have to take electronics down to the recycling dump. Most people don't bother. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | mitchalsup@aol.com (MitchAlsup1) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-05-23 15:17 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: the power of junk, Is Parallel Programming Hard, And, If So, What Can You Do About It? |
| Message-ID | <97e289412c7fd377a35d260534190fda@www.novabbs.org> |
| In reply to | #111756 |
On Fri, 23 May 2025 14:21:57 +0000, John Levine wrote: > According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>: >>>> Don’t you have regulations, or at least discouragements, against e-waste >>>> going to landfill? >> >>Yes, in the last two decades. A quarter century ago, not so much. >>> >>>This is 'Murica, pretty much everything goes in the trash here... >> >>Nonsense. > > It's sort of true. In my town they pick up paper and containers and yard > waste > at the curb but I have to take electronics down to the recycling dump. > Most > people don't bother. In Austin we have recycling, but at the sorting department, recycled glass is diverted straight to the garbage dump.
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