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| Started by | Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt <iajzenszmi@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2011-08-16 11:38 -0700 |
| Last post | 2011-08-16 23:43 -0500 |
| Articles | 7 — 4 participants |
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Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt <iajzenszmi@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 11:38 -0700
Re: Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2011-08-16 12:13 -0700
Re: Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt <iajzenszmi@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 13:53 -0700
Re: Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-08-16 18:11 -0700
Re: Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-16 20:38 -0500
Re: Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-08-16 20:50 -0700
Re: Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-08-16 23:43 -0500
| From | Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt <iajzenszmi@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 11:38 -0700 |
| Subject | Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. |
| Message-ID | <1ecab6c6-18e2-4bb5-9aee-ef8649b47c50@a8g2000prl.googlegroups.com> |
Binary switching logic circuits versus rotary switching 1 to n position switching logic circuits. Anybody interested in implementing rotary switching 1 to n position logic, where n is any number from 1 to infinity, in hardware software or firmware? Interesting possibilities lie ahead. Rotary switching logic is more versatile than binary switching logic. Memory and logic rotary based?
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| From | MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 12:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c92bceb8-e545-4ca7-a31f-bed1db902025@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #3047 |
The reason that binary "took over" in logic design is that it has the largest signal to noise tollerance of any logic family. This translates into vanishingly low error rates and highest possible speed/power product. 1-bit inverter 60 GHz 4-bit flash converter 7 GHz 8-bit A/D 200 MHz 14-bit A/D 16 MHz 20-bit A/D 2 MHz (only reaches 18.3 bits of precision) Notice a pattern?
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| From | Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt <iajzenszmi@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 13:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f67fdb3d-0f58-4f8c-9fd2-e8f88fcd0bfb@l4g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #3050 |
On Aug 17, 5:13 am, MitchAlsup <MitchAl...@aol.com> wrote: > The reason that binary "took over" in logic design is that it has the largest signal to noise tollerance of any logic family. This translates into vanishingly low error rates and highest possible speed/power product. > > 1-bit inverter 60 GHz > 4-bit flash converter 7 GHz > 8-bit A/D 200 MHz > 14-bit A/D 16 MHz > 20-bit A/D 2 MHz (only reaches 18.3 bits of precision) > > Notice a pattern? Based on the following Wikipedia article, and its Literature citations, use 2 to n possible value logic, where n is a number from 1 to infinity. Lower electricity consumption. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer Ternary computer From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Setun ternary computer designed by Nikolay Brusentsov in the Soviet Union. A ternary computer (also called trinary computer) is a computer that uses ternary logic (three possible values) instead of the more common binary logic (two possible values) in its calculations. Contents [hide] 1 History 2 Balanced ternary 3 The future 4 Ternary computers in popular culture 5 Literature 6 See also 7 References 8 External links [edit]History One of the earliest calculating machines, built by Thomas Fowler entirely from wood in 1840, was a ternary computer. The only modern, electronic ternary computer Setun was built in the late 1950s in the Soviet Union at the Moscow State University by Nikolay Brusentsov, and it had notable advantages over the binary computers which eventually replaced it (such as lower electricity consumption and lower production cost). In 1970 Brusentsov built an enhanced version of the computer, which he called Setun-70. [edit]Balanced ternary Main article: Balanced ternary Ternary computing is commonly implemented in terms of balanced ternary, which uses the three digits -1, 0, and +1. The negative value of any balanced ternary digit can be obtained by replacing every + with a – and vice versa. It is easy to subtract a number by inverting the + and – digits and then using normal addition. Balanced ternary can express negative values as easily as positive ones, without the need for a leading negative sign as with decimal numbers. These advantages make some calculations more efficient in ternary than binary. "I often reflect that had the Ternary instead of the binary Notation been adopted in the Infancy of Society, machines something like the present would long ere this have been common, as the transition from mental to mechanical calculation would have been so very obvious and simple". (Fowler, 1840) [edit]The future With the advent of mass-produced binary components for computers, ternary computers have diminished to a small footnote in the history of computing. However, ternary logic's elegance and efficiency is predicted by Donald Knuth to bring them back into development in the future.[1] Possible ways on how this can happen is by the combination of an optical computer with the ternary logic system.[2] A ternary computer using fiber optics could use dark as 0 and two orthogonal polarizations of light as 1 and -1. This future potential has also been remarked by certain companies as Hypres which is actively engaged in ternary computing. IBM also reports infrequently on ternary computing topics (in its papers), but it is not actively engaged in it. The Josephson junction has been proposed as a balanced ternary memory cell, using circulating superconducting currents, either clockwise, counterclockwise, or off. "The advantages of the proposed memory circuit are capability of high speed computation, low power consumption and very simple construction with less number of elements due to the ternary operation."[3] In 2009, a ternary quantum computer was proposed which thus uses qutrits rather than qubits. When the number of basic states of quantum element is d, it is called qudit.[4] [edit]Ternary computers in popular culture In Robert A. Heinlein's novel Time Enough for Love, the sentient computers of Secundus, the planet on which part of the framing story is set, including Minerva, use an unbalanced ternary system. Minerva, in reporting a calculation result, says "three hundred forty one thousand six hundred forty... the original ternary readout is unit pair pair comma unit nil nil comma unit pair pair comma unit nil nil point nil" (Chapter Variations on a Theme III: Domestic Problems, Berkley books 19th printing [1982] page 99) [edit]Literature Hunger, Francis: SETUN. An Inquiry into the Soviet Ternary Computer. Institut für Buchkunst Leipzig, 2008, ISBN 3-932865-48-0 (English, German) [edit]See also Ternary numeral system Balanced ternary Setun Ternary logic Ternac Ternary flip-flap-flop[5] Ternary SRAM [edit]References ^ D.E. Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming - Volume 2: Seminumerical Algorithms, pp. 190-192. Addison-Wesley, 2nd ed., 1980. ISBN 0-201-03822-6. ^ Ternary Optical Computer ^ doi:10.1109/ISMVL.1998.679270 ^ Qudits ^ Ternary "flip-flap-flop" [edit]External links Development of ternary computers at Moscow State University The ternary calculating machine of Thomas Fowler Ternary Optical computer Trinary.cc - logic gates used to build a ternary computer Ternary Computing Testbed 3-Trit Computer ArchitecturePDF (6.6 MB) Computer Model of Ternary 3-Trit Computer Architecture TCA2 in 3-Bit System of Ternary Logic Elements View page ratings Rate this page What's this? Trustworthy Objective Complete Well-written Search results from IEEE Xplore for Ternary, which is 3 possible values. How about 16 possible values, 100 possible values? Results per Page Showing 1 - 25 of 7,364 results Next» Sort By: Select All on Page | Deselect All Design of Ternary COS/MOS Memory and Sequential Circuits Mouftah, H.T.; Jordan, I.B.; Computers, IEEE Transactions on Volume: C-26 , Issue: 3 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/TC.1977.1674821 Publication Year: 1977 , Page(s): 281 - 288 Cited by: 5 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (2182 KB) Synthesis Techniques for Ternary Quantum Logic Mandal, S.B.; Chakrabarti, A.; Sur-Kolay, S.; Multiple-Valued Logic (ISMVL), 2011 41st IEEE International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISMVL.2011.55 Publication Year: 2011 , Page(s): 218 - 223 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (213 KB) A Novel Ternary Controller Unit Haidar, A.M.; Al-Rifai, F.; Alaeldine, A.; Bernard, M.F.; Information and Communication Technologies: From Theory to Applications, 2008. ICTTA 2008. 3rd International Conference on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ICTTA.2008.4530260 Publication Year: 2008 , Page(s): 1 - 6 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (239 KB) The Ternary Quantum-dot Cellular Automata Memorizing Cell Pecar, P.; Janez, M.; Zimic, N.; Mraz, M.; Bajec, I.L.; VLSI, 2009. ISVLSI '09. IEEE Computer Society Annual Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISVLSI.2009.32 Publication Year: 2009 , Page(s): 223 - 228 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (402 KB) Noise margin-optimized ternary CMOS SRAM delay and sizing characteristics Kamar, Z.; Nepal, K.; Circuits and Systems (MWSCAS), 2010 53rd IEEE International Midwest Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/MWSCAS.2010.5548690 Publication Year: 2010 , Page(s): 801 - 804 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (531 KB) Static-Hazard-Free T-Gate for Ternary Memory Element and Its Application to Ternary Counters Higuchi, T.; Kameyama, M.; Computers, IEEE Transactions on Volume: C-26 , Issue: 12 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/TC.1977.1674782 Publication Year: 1977 , Page(s): 1212 - 1221 Cited by: 1 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (6829 KB) Design and implementation of ternary exoatmospheric autopilot system Choi, L.-J.; Bailey, J.M.; Digital Avionics Systems Conference, 1990. Proceedings., IEEE/AIAA/ NASA 9th Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/DASC.1990.111262 Publication Year: 1990 , Page(s): 58 - 63 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (312 KB) Low power dynamic ternary logic Wang, J.-S.; Wu, C.-Y.; Tsai, M.-K.; Electronic Circuits and Systems, IEE Proceedings G Volume: 135 , Issue: 6 Publication Year: 1988 , Page(s): 221 - 230 Cited by: 1 IET JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (660 KB) Ternary multiplication circuits using 4-input adder cells and carry look-ahead Herrfeld, A.; Hentschke, S.; Multiple-Valued Logic, 1999. Proceedings. 1999 29th IEEE International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISMVL.1999.779713 Publication Year: 1999 , Page(s): 174 - 179 Cited by: 1 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (1076 KB) CNTFET-Based Design of Ternary Logic Gates and Arithmetic Circuits Sheng Lin; Yong-Bin Kim; Lombardi, F.; Nanotechnology, IEEE Transactions on Volume: 10 , Issue: 2 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/TNANO.2009.2036845 Publication Year: 2011 , Page(s): 217 - 225 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (773 KB) Design and application of pipelined dynamic CMOS ternary logic and simple ternary differential logic Wu, C.-Y.; Huang, H.-Y.; Solid-State Circuits, IEEE Journal of Volume: 28 , Issue: 8 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/4.231326 Publication Year: 1993 , Page(s): 895 - 906 Cited by: 3 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (824 KB) A Study on the code acquisition and tracking systems using pseudo- ternary M-sequences Enomoto, R.; Habuchi, H.; Spread Spectrum Techniques and Applications (ISITA), 2010 IEEE 11th International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISSSTA.2010.5648821 Publication Year: 2010 , Page(s): 160 - 164 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (277 KB) Low power dissipation MOS ternary logic family Balla, P.C.; Antoniou, A.; Solid-State Circuits, IEEE Journal of Volume: 19 , Issue: 5 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/JSSC.1984.1052216 Publication Year: 1984 , Page(s): 739 - 749 Cited by: 1 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (1120 KB) Synthesis of ternary non-reversible logic circuits Xiaoyu Li; Guowu Yang; Desheng Zheng; Evolutionary Computation (CEC), 2010 IEEE Congress on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/CEC.2010.5586551 Publication Year: 2010 , Page(s): 1 - 4 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (79 KB) A method to design ternary multiplexers controlled by ternary signals based on SUS-LOC Sipos, E.; Oltean, G.; Miron, C.; Automation, Quality and Testing, Robotics, 2008. AQTR 2008. IEEE International Conference on Volume: 3 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/AQTR.2008.4588952 Publication Year: 2008 , Page(s): 402 - 407 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (197 KB) Realization of systolic array using ternary reversible gates Nower, N.; Chowdhury, A.R.; Computers and Information Technology, 2009. ICCIT '09. 12th International Conference on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ICCIT.2009.5407141 Publication Year: 2009 , Page(s): 192 - 196 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (822 KB) Meaningful special classes of ternary logic functions-regular ternary logic functions and ternary majority functions Yamamoto, Y.; Mukaidono, M.; Computers, IEEE Transactions on Volume: 37 , Issue: 7 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/12.2225 Publication Year: 1988 , Page(s): 799 - 806 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (572 KB) Design of energy-efficient and robust ternary circuits for nanotechnology Moaiyeri, M.H.; Doostaregan, A.; Navi, K.; Circuits, Devices & Systems, IET Volume: 5 , Issue: 4 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1049/iet-cds.2010.0340 Publication Year: 2011 , Page(s): 285 - 296 IET JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (1072 KB) A new two-phase pipelined dynamic CMOS ternary logic Chung-Yu Wu; Hong-Yi Huang; Circuits and Systems, 1990., IEEE International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISCAS.1990.112127 Publication Year: 1990 , Page(s): 582 - 586 vol.1 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (356 KB) Pseudo-random testing of CMOS ternary logic circuits Rozon, C.; Mouftah, H.T.; Multiple-Valued Logic, 1988., Proceedings of the Eighteenth International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISMVL.1988.5189 Publication Year: 1988 , Page(s): 316 - 320 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (264 KB) Design of an asynchronous digital system with B-ternary logic Nagata, Y.; Mukaidono, M.; Multiple-Valued Logic, 1997. Proceedings., 1997 27th International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISMVL.1997.601411 Publication Year: 1997 , Page(s): 265 - 271 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (468 KB) An extension of ternary majority function and its application to evolvable system Yamamoto, Y.; Multiple-Valued Logic, 2003. Proceedings. 33rd International Symposium on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/ISMVL.2003.1201379 Publication Year: 2003 , Page(s): 17 - 23 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (498 KB) Enumeration of Ternary Threshold Functions of Three Variables Aibara, Tsunehiro; Akagi, Michihiro; Computers, IEEE Transactions on Volume: C-21 , Issue: 4 Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/TC.1972.5008986 Publication Year: 1972 , Page(s): 402 - 407 Cited by: 1 IEEE JOURNALS Abstract | Full Text: PDF (1048 KB) Novel ternary logic design based on CNFET Haiqing Nan; Ken Choi; SoC Design Conference (ISOCC), 2010 International Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/SOCDC.2010.5682960 Publication Year: 2010 , Page(s): 115 - 118 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (173 KB) Performance evaluation of the code acquisition system using pseudo- ternary M-sequences Enomoto, R.; Habuchi, H.; Communications (APCC), 2010 16th Asia-Pacific Conference on Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/APCC.2010.5679769 Publication Year: 2010 , Page(s): 221 - 225 IEEE CONFERENCES Abstract | Full Text: PDF (254 KB)
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| From | "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 18:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4E4B1545.8090502@SPAM.comp-arch.net> |
| In reply to | #3053 |
On 8/16/2011 1:53 PM, Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt wrote:
> On Aug 17, 5:13 am, MitchAlsup<MitchAl...@aol.com> wrote:
>> The reason that binary "took over" in logic design is that it has the largest signal to noise tollerance of any logic family. This translates into vanishingly low error rates and highest possible speed/power product.
>>
>> 1-bit inverter 60 GHz
>> 4-bit flash converter 7 GHz
>> 8-bit A/D 200 MHz
>> 14-bit A/D 16 MHz
>> 20-bit A/D 2 MHz (only reaches 18.3 bits of precision)
>>
>> Notice a pattern?
>
> Based on the following Wikipedia article, and its Literature
> citations, use 2 to n possible value logic, where n is a number from 1
> to infinity. Lower electricity consumption.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer
Yeah? So?
It's still an issue of noise.
If you have a circuit technology that is extremely low noise, go for
multilevel.
Note that flash uses multiple signal levels per bitcell - although it is
quickly converted into binary.
>
> Main article: Balanced ternary
> Ternary computing is commonly implemented in terms of balanced
> ternary, which uses the three digits -1, 0, and +1. The negative value
> of any balanced ternary digit can be obtained by replacing every +
> with a – and vice versa. It is easy to subtract a number by inverting
> the + and – digits and then using normal addition. Balanced ternary
> can express negative values as easily as positive ones, without the
> need for a leading negative sign as with decimal numbers. These
> advantages make some calculations more efficient in ternary than
> binary.
By the way: I suspect that what you (and wikipedia) call ternary is, in
the computer arithmetic community[*], usually called "signed binary".
The distinction binary versus ternary is made according to the base.
E.g. if you have a number whose digits are
{d_i} = {dn, d_n-1, ... d2, d1, d0}
then it is a binary notation if the value is
D = sum d_i * 2**i
and it is a ternary notation if the value is
D = sum d_i * 3**i
There is no restriction that the digit set be only two values, {0,1}, in
binary.
It is quite common to have digit sets of {-1,0,1} in binary, also
{-1,0,1,2}, etc. Sometimes {-1,1}, with no zero, for specialized
applications.
---
[*] At least, this is what I was taught to call it, by Robertson, the R
in SRT division. And I am fairly certain that it is current in most.
I am surprised that Knuth calls it ternary. I will ask him about that
in November.
---
I suppose that we could say that the digit set is binary or ternary,
while the base is 2.
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| From | Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 20:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <pb6m471pu3rsvktkshafv98h79s6saf7rf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #3064 |
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:11:33 -0700, "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> wrote: >On 8/16/2011 1:53 PM, Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt wrote: >> On Aug 17, 5:13 am, MitchAlsup<MitchAl...@aol.com> wrote: >>> The reason that binary "took over" in logic design is that it has the largest signal to noise tollerance of any logic family. This translates into vanishingly low error rates and highest possible speed/power product. >>> >>> 1-bit inverter 60 GHz >>> 4-bit flash converter 7 GHz >>> 8-bit A/D 200 MHz >>> 14-bit A/D 16 MHz >>> 20-bit A/D 2 MHz (only reaches 18.3 bits of precision) >>> >>> Notice a pattern? >> >> Based on the following Wikipedia article, and its Literature >> citations, use 2 to n possible value logic, where n is a number from 1 >> to infinity. Lower electricity consumption. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer > >Yeah? So? > >It's still an issue of noise. > >If you have a circuit technology that is extremely low noise, go for >multilevel. > >Note that flash uses multiple signal levels per bitcell - although it is >quickly converted into binary. And MLC flash would be pretty unusable without error correction. Something I've wondered about for years is that I've never heard of anyone doing anything other than four or eight level MLC flash. Given that essentially all MLC flash goes into disk-like products with sector-size (or bigger) accesses, doing an odd (non-power-of-two) number of levels is perfectly plausible, since you can even that out over many bits (and the left over can be very, very small). You could obviously have a lot more room to tweak or gradually evolve your process.
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| From | "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 20:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4E4B3A7E.6030005@SPAM.comp-arch.net> |
| In reply to | #3065 |
On 8/16/2011 6:38 PM, Robert Wessel wrote: > On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:11:33 -0700, "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" > <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> wrote: > >> On 8/16/2011 1:53 PM, Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt wrote: >>> On Aug 17, 5:13 am, MitchAlsup<MitchAl...@aol.com> wrote: >>>> The reason that binary "took over" in logic design is that it has the largest signal to noise tollerance of any logic family. This translates into vanishingly low error rates and highest possible speed/power product. >>>> >>>> 1-bit inverter 60 GHz >>>> 4-bit flash converter 7 GHz >>>> 8-bit A/D 200 MHz >>>> 14-bit A/D 16 MHz >>>> 20-bit A/D 2 MHz (only reaches 18.3 bits of precision) >>>> >>>> Notice a pattern? >>> >>> Based on the following Wikipedia article, and its Literature >>> citations, use 2 to n possible value logic, where n is a number from 1 >>> to infinity. Lower electricity consumption. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer >> >> Yeah? So? >> >> It's still an issue of noise. >> >> If you have a circuit technology that is extremely low noise, go for >> multilevel. >> >> Note that flash uses multiple signal levels per bitcell - although it is >> quickly converted into binary. > > > And MLC flash would be pretty unusable without error correction. > > Something I've wondered about for years is that I've never heard of > anyone doing anything other than four or eight level MLC flash. Given > that essentially all MLC flash goes into disk-like products with > sector-size (or bigger) accesses, doing an odd (non-power-of-two) > number of levels is perfectly plausible, since you can even that out > over many bits (and the left over can be very, very small). You could > obviously have a lot more room to tweak or gradually evolve your > process. A friend of mine who designs flash disks / SSDs told me that when you have, say, 4 level MLC flash, it is NOT 2 bits from the same disk block encoded in the same physical storage cell BUT 2 separate bits, from 2 separate disk blocks, encoded in the same physical storage cell. He said that the products he designed could not write any of the 4 levels all at the same time. Instead, he said that you can only write to half of the levels at a time. I did not quite follow why, although I might guess that it is related to error correction, and that you are always doing RMWs. If this is (still) true, then it might explain why tri-level is hard: you would not just be writing ceil( NBitsPerBlock/3 ) storage cells with arbitrary ternary values. With zeroing being a special operation.
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| From | Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-08-16 23:43 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <begm475ri2mgn6rjd4354kpqd8stm6snbs@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #3066 |
On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 20:50:22 -0700, "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> wrote: >On 8/16/2011 6:38 PM, Robert Wessel wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:11:33 -0700, "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" >> <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> wrote: >> >>> On 8/16/2011 1:53 PM, Ian Martin Ajzenszmidt wrote: >>>> On Aug 17, 5:13 am, MitchAlsup<MitchAl...@aol.com> wrote: >>>>> The reason that binary "took over" in logic design is that it has the largest signal to noise tollerance of any logic family. This translates into vanishingly low error rates and highest possible speed/power product. >>>>> >>>>> 1-bit inverter 60 GHz >>>>> 4-bit flash converter 7 GHz >>>>> 8-bit A/D 200 MHz >>>>> 14-bit A/D 16 MHz >>>>> 20-bit A/D 2 MHz (only reaches 18.3 bits of precision) >>>>> >>>>> Notice a pattern? >>>> >>>> Based on the following Wikipedia article, and its Literature >>>> citations, use 2 to n possible value logic, where n is a number from 1 >>>> to infinity. Lower electricity consumption. >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer >>> >>> Yeah? So? >>> >>> It's still an issue of noise. >>> >>> If you have a circuit technology that is extremely low noise, go for >>> multilevel. >>> >>> Note that flash uses multiple signal levels per bitcell - although it is >>> quickly converted into binary. >> >> >> And MLC flash would be pretty unusable without error correction. >> >> Something I've wondered about for years is that I've never heard of >> anyone doing anything other than four or eight level MLC flash. Given >> that essentially all MLC flash goes into disk-like products with >> sector-size (or bigger) accesses, doing an odd (non-power-of-two) >> number of levels is perfectly plausible, since you can even that out >> over many bits (and the left over can be very, very small). You could >> obviously have a lot more room to tweak or gradually evolve your >> process. > >A friend of mine who designs flash disks / SSDs told me that when you >have, say, 4 level MLC flash, it is > >NOT 2 bits from the same disk block encoded in the same physical storage >cell > >BUT 2 separate bits, from 2 separate disk blocks, encoded in the same >physical storage cell. > >He said that the products he designed could not write any of the 4 >levels all at the same time. > >Instead, he said that you can only write to half of the levels at a >time. I did not quite follow why, although I might guess that it is >related to error correction, and that you are always doing RMWs. > >If this is (still) true, then it might explain why tri-level is hard: >you would not just be writing ceil( NBitsPerBlock/3 ) storage cells with >arbitrary ternary values. > >With zeroing being a special operation. I have some trouble believing this - it's a single charge stored in a single floating gate, written through a single mechanism. Perhaps if there was something funky in the write mechanism that could only put one of two or three power levels on the write line (so on a 8 level MLC, one write would "write" 0 or 4*N J to the cell, the second 0 or 2*N J to the cell, and the third 0 or1*N J). But that would be a limitation of the drivers on the write circuitry, not something really inherent in the storage cell. And it would obviously be trivial (if carrying a bit of a performance penalty - although the actual write time isn't really the major performance bottleneck on most flash) to write two half blocks to the same region (assuming a four level cell) in two cycles. And multiple write cycles would still work with "odd" numbers of levels - you could write to a five level cell with combinations of 4N, 2N and 1N writes (obviously omitting three of the possible combinations). Perhaps they were storing the blocks in such a way to improve error correction - it would spread out the data over move cells, reducing the impact of a single failed cell on any stored block. IOW, If a single block used all three bits in a cell, the cell failing would require three bits to be handled by the FEC mechanism - spread it out, and you end up with three blocks needing a single bit of FEC. (In reality the number of bits to be corrected would certainly be larger than a single cell's worth). Depending on the probability distribution of errors, that could be an advantage. Blocks are sometimes interleaved that way on communications links for similar reasons (it reduces the impact of an error burst on a given block).
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