Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg

From	Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups	comp.arch
Subject	Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg
Date	2026-10-17 23:20 +0300
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<20261017232002.000011e3@yahoo.com> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <11au1vu$3ks5m$2@dont-email.me> <11aunpn$8c6$1@reader2.panix.com> <1792257076-5857@newsgrouper.org> <11b0bd3$b5b$1@reader2.panix.com> <1792265982-5857@newsgrouper.org>

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On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 19:39:42 GMT
MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

> cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) posted:
> 
> > In article <1792257076-5857@newsgrouper.org>,
> > MitchAlsup  <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:  
> > >cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) posted:
> > >  
> > >> In article <11au1vu$3ks5m$2@dont-email.me>,
> > >> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:  
> > >> >Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> schrieb:  
> > >> >> Unfortunately, the information is spread across two sections,
> > >> >> and they contradict.  The description in the `LOCK` prefix
> > >> >> section in the latest version of the Intel SDM includes the
> > >> >> text Anton quoted, while the description of `XCHG` itself
> > >> >> makes clear that the destination operand must be a memory
> > >> >> operand for the locking protocol to automatically apply.
> > >> >> Which is correct?  
> > >> >
> > >> >What would be the meaning of LOCK with memory operands?  I can't
> > >> >think of any.  
> > >> 
> > >> Using the `LOCK` prefix without a destination operand that is a
> > >> memory operand is an error, and the SDM is quite explicit about
> > >> that.  In fact, it says that an explicit `LOCK` prefix on an
> > >> `XCHG` a register destination operand is _not_ permitted and
> > >> "may" generate an `#UD` exception.
> > >> 
> > >> But sadly, when talking about an `XCHG` _without_ an explicit
> > >> operand, it is left ambiguous; all it says is that, "The `XCHG`
> > >> instruction always asserts the `LOCK#` signal regardless of the
> > >> presence or absence of the `LOCK` prefix."  Devoid of the rest
> > >> of the surrounding context, one could interpret that to mean
> > >> that an `XCHG` _always_ forces a bus lock, irrespective of the
> > >> type of its desintation operand.
> > >> 
> > >> Why?   
> > >
> > >Older machines performed the read, returned the read data to
> > >a core and then sent the data to be written back to memory;
> > >where the time between the read and the write was unknowable.
> > >
> > >Some newer machines take the data to be written and package it
> > >up in an interconnect transaction so the read and write happen
> > >on back-to-back cycles with no possibility of interference.
> > >These are ATOMIC even without any bus-locking. The data read 
> > >out is returned to the core.  
> > 
> > No, I get that; I mean in the case where both operands to `XCHG`
> > are _register_ operands.
> > 
> > What I'm saying is that, as written, the bits in the `LOCK`
> > description above _could_ be interpreted to mean that _any_
> > `XCHG` will always assert the `LOCK#` signal, including an
> > `XCHG` that does not touch memory at all.  The "Why?" was
> > rhetorical, as in, "Why would the system do that?"  For example,
> > if one wrote, `xchg %ecx, %eax`, why should that assert `LOCK#`?
> > Truly I don't know, and I was just speculating.  
> 
> Writing high quality documentation is fundamentally hard. It took
> me nearly 40 years of doing so to get to the point a mischievous
> engineer could NOT misunderstand what I had written.

How do you know?
Nature is inventive.

> It is harder
> wo write high quality documentation than perform circuit design.
> 
> What they wrote may have well been exactly what the HW did back then
> but somewhere between then and now architects and designers figured
> out other ways and nobody went back to fully scrub the documents.
>  
> > But as I said, I don't think that is what the sentence in
> > question is _actually_ saying, and I really don't think that
> > `xchg %ecx, %eax` _actually_ asserts `LOCK#` (or, these days,
> > has anything to do with cache coherency and memory ordering).
> >   
> > >>       I have no idea; as I said, I'm in the camp of going with
> > >> what the description of `XCHG` itself says, and not the what the
> > >> description of the `LOCK` prefix says: that sentence is _not_
> > >> devoid of context, and besides, there has not been a physical
> > >> `LOCK#` signal coming out of an Intel Xeon package since
> > >> Nehalem.
> > >> 
> > >> I suppose one could imagine it forcing a poor-man's barrier to
> > >> prevent later loads from being reorderd before it (loads can't
> > >> migrate before locked instructions).  But we've got explicit
> > >> fence instructions for that, so I don't buy it.
> > >> 
> > >> I suspect that sentence is just poorly phrased.  
> > 
> > 	- Dan C.
> >

Thread

Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-13 08:43 +0000
  Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-14 00:23 +0000
    Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-14 07:00 +0000
      Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-14 22:35 +0000
        Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-14 23:07 +0000
        Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-15 06:05 +0000
          Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-15 07:06 +0000
            Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-16 09:47 -0400
              Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-16 16:04 +0000
              Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 05:46 +0000
  Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-14 22:29 +0300
  Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-15 14:21 -0700
    Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-15 21:42 +0000
      Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@tmsw.no> - 2026-10-16 14:45 +0200
    Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-16 05:50 +0000
      Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-16 11:34 +0300
        Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-16 18:23 +0000
          Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-16 20:48 +0000
            Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:28 -0700
            Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-17 09:48 +0000
          Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-17 02:50 +0000
            Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-17 17:11 +0000
              Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-17 17:31 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-17 19:39 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-17 23:20 +0300
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:54 +0000
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-10-18 09:45 -0400
                Algol 68 (was: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg)) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-18 14:08 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg)) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-19 00:09 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 01:46 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-21 14:15 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2026-10-21 18:34 +0300
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-21 19:38 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) aph@littlepinkcloud.invalid - 2026-10-22 09:51 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-10-22 14:15 -0700
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-23 14:08 +0000
                Re: PL/I, was Algol 68 (was: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg)) John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-10-19 03:24 +0000
                Re: PL/I, was Algol 68 (was: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg)) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-19 05:34 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-18 23:34 -0400
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) quadibloc@invalid.com (John Savard) - 2026-10-19 00:18 +0000
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-19 01:52 +0000
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-10-19 14:50 -0400
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-20 02:05 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 (was Re: Documentation) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 01:54 +0000
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2026-10-19 07:44 +0000
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-19 12:24 -0400
                Re: Documentation (was Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg) MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-18 17:48 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-10-18 08:59 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-18 15:08 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-18 18:43 +0300
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-18 16:57 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-18 20:47 +0300
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-18 18:07 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-18 21:04 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-18 23:43 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Stephen Fuld <sfuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2026-10-19 06:57 -0700
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 14:27 -0700
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-20 10:00 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-20 02:00 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-10-20 14:09 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-20 16:44 -0700
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-10-20 10:05 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-20 19:56 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2026-10-22 10:54 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-22 22:11 +0300
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-18 17:40 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-10-18 20:54 +0300
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-18 18:25 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:01 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-18 17:59 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-18 17:09 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-18 12:31 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-10-18 17:47 +0000
            Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-18 12:27 -0700
              Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2026-10-19 09:38 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 14:08 -0700
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 21:21 +0000
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 14:26 -0700
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg Joseph Seigh <jseigh_es00@xemaps.com> - 2026-10-19 19:17 -0400
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 22:41 -0700
                Re: Performance of xchg reg,reg MitchAlsup <user5857@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-10-20 16:45 +0000

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