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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #30187 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-12-15 01:32 -0800 |
| Last post | 2020-12-20 01:08 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 36 — 17 participants |
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Alternative terms for master and slave Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 01:32 -0800
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2020-12-15 17:56 +0800
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-12-15 11:57 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2020-12-15 17:38 -0500
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 15:33 -0800
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-12-15 11:59 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-12-15 15:07 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-12-15 16:41 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave upsidedown@downunder.com - 2020-12-15 18:07 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-12-15 10:59 -0700
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> - 2020-12-18 15:32 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-12-18 07:56 -0700
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 08:34 -0800
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-12-15 19:57 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-12-15 19:13 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-12-16 08:59 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2020-12-17 17:04 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-12-17 11:35 -0700
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-12-17 20:25 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2020-12-15 21:28 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2020-12-15 19:37 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave kegs@provalid.com (Kent Dickey) - 2020-12-19 15:41 -0600
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-12-20 17:39 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2020-12-20 18:17 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-12-20 23:23 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-12-20 23:56 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-12-21 17:29 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-12-21 23:44 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2020-12-22 23:36 +0200
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2020-12-15 06:30 -0700
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-12-15 22:26 +0100
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-12-15 08:55 -0800
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2020-12-17 07:30 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> - 2020-12-17 17:58 -0800
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2020-12-19 02:03 +0000
Re: Alternative terms for master and slave Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2020-12-20 01:08 +0100
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| From | Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 01:32 -0800 |
| Subject | Alternative terms for master and slave |
| Message-ID | <cb3375f9-6e73-4146-ab10-2a9a7668ec96n@googlegroups.com> |
It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats, but I have a proposal for a terminology change. Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob* respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob* what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than *master* and *slave*? In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a meeting with the Bobs.
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| From | Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 17:56 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <rra18p$sqk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30187 |
On 12/15/20 5:32 PM, Brad Eckert wrote: > It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats, but I have a proposal for a terminology change. > > Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob* respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob* what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than *master* and *slave*? > > In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a meeting with the Bobs. Two boobs attached to Alice.
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| From | Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 11:57 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <i3rfjeF61reU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #30187 |
On 2020-12-15 11:32, Brad Eckert wrote:
> It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the
> tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats,
> but I have a proposal for a terminology change.
>
> Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob*
> respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob*
> what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than
> *master* and *slave*?
>
> In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If
> you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a
> meeting with the Bobs.
My favourite alternative to master - slave is
boss - body
as in "everyBODY does what the BOSS tells them".
Boss-body has the nice property that both words have the same number of
letters, so variable names etc. can be nicely aligned in the code :-)
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| From | George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 17:38 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <9jeitflu9argrljlqfvoekvatsn2q6o041@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #30189 |
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:57:02 +0200, Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> wrote: >On 2020-12-15 11:32, Brad Eckert wrote: >> It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the >> tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats, >> but I have a proposal for a terminology change. >> >> Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob* >> respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob* >> what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than >> *master* and *slave*? >> >> In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If >> you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a >> meeting with the Bobs. > >My favourite alternative to master - slave is > > boss - body > >as in "everyBODY does what the BOSS tells them". > >Boss-body has the nice property that both words have the same number of >letters, so variable names etc. can be nicely aligned in the code :-) For some in the US, the word "boss" has the same negative connotations as does "master". YMMV, George
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 15:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <6dab7653-e5e8-4681-9299-51802ac908den@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30203 |
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:38:43 PM UTC-5, George Neuner wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:57:02 +0200, Niklas Holsti > <niklas...@tidorum.invalid> wrote: > > >On 2020-12-15 11:32, Brad Eckert wrote: > >> It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the > >> tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats, > >> but I have a proposal for a terminology change. > >> > >> Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob* > >> respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob* > >> what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than > >> *master* and *slave*? > >> > >> In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If > >> you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a > >> meeting with the Bobs. > > > >My favourite alternative to master - slave is > > > > boss - body > > > >as in "everyBODY does what the BOSS tells them". > > > >Boss-body has the nice property that both words have the same number of > >letters, so variable names etc. can be nicely aligned in the code :-) > For some in the US, the word "boss" has the same negative connotations > as does "master". Yes, boss. There's a Chinese restaurant I eat at when I charge the car. The lady at the counter calls me "boss". I guess that's a polite formality. I should tell her to call me Rick. -- Rick C. -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 11:59 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <rra4up$okg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30187 |
On 15/12/2020 10:32, Brad Eckert wrote: > It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the > tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats, > but I have a proposal for a terminology change. > > Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob* > respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob* > what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than > *master* and *slave*? > > In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If > you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a > meeting with the Bobs. > The software world is full of terms that can offend people if people choose to be offended. Just look at processes on *nix systems - you get daemons and zombies, you stop a process by killing it, parent processes can't die until all their children are dead (or else the children turn into zombies), and so on. I remember someone on my CSP course at university complaining about the terms "angelic choice" and "demonic choice". And of course in electronics we have male connectors and female connectors. Perhaps black and white photography should be renamed to "shades of grey" ? No, "master" and "slave" are not being phased out except by a few companies where some PR twats can't understand that their thoughtless eagerness to be "politically correct" actually offends people more than leaving things as they are with convenient and practical names.
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 15:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rrajfo$3ko$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #30190 |
On 2020-12-15, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > And of course in electronics we have male connectors and female connectors. I remember about 35 years ago, when I said something about a male or female connector within earshot of my girlfriend. She asked why they're called male and female and how do you decide which is which? I picked up two connectors, showed them to her and then plugged them together. She was horrified. -- Grant
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 16:41 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <rralei$igo$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30192 |
On 15/12/2020 16:07, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2020-12-15, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > >> And of course in electronics we have male connectors and female connectors. > > I remember about 35 years ago, when I said something about a male or > female connector within earshot of my girlfriend. She asked why > they're called male and female and how do you decide which is which? > > I picked up two connectors, showed them to her and then plugged them > together. > > She was horrified. > I can understand these things being a surprise, or possibly even offensive, to people unfamiliar with the particular field. But when the terms are everyday technical terms, people using them do not associate them with the same things. When you decide if the coax connector on a board is to be male or female, you are thinking about the physical connector - not human body parts. (You might think about human body parts next time you do have a connector - but that is only because we have been discussing them in that way.) You have a similar effect in human language with swearing. People never mean these /literally/, or think about the real meaning of the words when they swear. (It can be fun when first seeing swear words in different languages, if you translate them literally because you don't know they are common curses.) For people who work with SPI buses, talking about an "SPI master" and an "SPI slave" makes them think of microcontrollers and eeproms, not a scene from "Gone with the Wind" or "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom". And if someone thinks it is a problem that the words "master" and "slave" (or "male" and "female") are used in these contexts, then they should stay out of that kind of conversation - they don't understand it anyway.
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 18:07 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <sjnhtft113iqtr3d1im406dkhd4tn1n9a7@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #30190 |
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:59:36 +0100, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: >On 15/12/2020 10:32, Brad Eckert wrote: >> It seems the terms *master* and *slave* are being phased out of the >> tech lexicon with help from Google. I know this is like herding cats, >> but I have a proposal for a terminology change. >> >> Just replace *master* and *slave* with *Alice* and *Bob* >> respectively. *Bob* attaches to *Alice* and then *Alice* tells *Bob* >> what to do, so it's easy to remember. Isn't that more fun than >> *master* and *slave*? >> >> In SPI terminology, *mosi* and *miso* become *aobi* and *aibo*. If >> you have multiple Bobs on the bus, it gets better. Alice has a >> meeting with the Bobs. >> > >The software world is full of terms that can offend people if people >choose to be offended. Just look at processes on *nix systems - you get >daemons and zombies, you stop a process by killing it, parent processes >can't die until all their children are dead (or else the children turn >into zombies), and so on. I remember someone on my CSP course at >university complaining about the terms "angelic choice" and "demonic >choice". Some might also be offended by running Ethernet controller in promiscuous mode, accepting all packets.
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 10:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rratig$fmc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30194 |
On 12/15/2020 9:07 AM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >> The software world is full of terms that can offend people if people >> choose to be offended. Just look at processes on *nix systems - you get >> daemons and zombies, you stop a process by killing it, parent processes >> can't die until all their children are dead (or else the children turn >> into zombies), and so on. I remember someone on my CSP course at >> university complaining about the terms "angelic choice" and "demonic >> choice". > > Some might also be offended by running Ethernet controller in > promiscuous mode, accepting all packets. In the trade, the opposite of "Generic" is "Ethical". Interesting choice of word!
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| From | Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-18 15:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <k7fptf5b509tmq2diuun1tnh72k304p8ov@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #30197 |
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:59:40 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: >In the trade, the opposite of "Generic" is "Ethical". Interesting >choice of word! Are you sure? "Ethical" and "ethnical" may look similar, but have very different meaning. -- RoRo
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-18 07:56 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rrifv7$ksc$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30223 |
On 12/18/2020 7:32 AM, Robert Roland wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:59:40 -0700, Don Y > <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote: >> In the trade, the opposite of "Generic" is "Ethical". Interesting >> choice of word! > > Are you sure? > > "Ethical" and "ethnical" may look similar, but have very different > meaning. "Ethical" drugs are aka "prescription" drugs (in the US), for hysterical raisins. Their production, sale and dispensing are regulated. (other "medications" have less stringent restrictions) Drugs that have gone "off patent" are produced by others (beyond the "innovators") as "generic" drugs. These are the same medications (possibly minor "inert" differences in formulations having to do with the production process) but, usually, at a reduced sell price (the "generic" manufacturer doesn't have to bear the cost of drug development and testing). The lay public calls the former "brand name" but, old-timers in the industry still resort to the use of "ethical" to differentiate (though ALL are technically "ethical" in the "prescription" sense of the word) [I first heard this at a trade conference, many years ago. I turned to my boss and commented, "Wow! What a sleight against the generic industry! (ethical suggests unethical)". This, of course, isn't the STATED intent... though I suspect the ethical producers aren't real keen on the generic houses!] <https://pharmachemicalscoatings.blogspot.com/2007/12/challenges-to-ethical-and-generic-drug.html> <https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196110122651511>
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| From | Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 08:34 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <9ff6f549-2d3d-4180-ae7b-b7cf859b7755n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30190 |
On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:59:42 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote: > > > The software world is full of terms that can offend people if people > choose to be offended. Sorry, I stopped listening to you after you showed extreme ignorance. Yeah, people can be offended by things we think of as innocent. I recall a female assembler being offended by the use of the terms male and female for connectors. I tried to reason with her for a bit, then I asked, "OK, what should we call them?" That completely changed the tone of the conversation and we worked something out. I don't recall the terms we came up with, but the conversation made her happy and we never had that conversation again. Win-win. -- Rick C. - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging - Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 19:57 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <rrb0u6$aqs$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30195 |
On 15/12/2020 17:34, Rick C wrote: > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:59:42 AM UTC-5, David Brown > wrote: >>> >> The software world is full of terms that can offend people if >> people choose to be offended. > > Sorry, I stopped listening to you after you showed extreme ignorance. > Fortunately, I choose not to be offended by these terms :-) > > Yeah, people can be offended by things we think of as innocent. I > recall a female assembler being offended by the use of the terms male > and female for connectors. I tried to reason with her for a bit, > then I asked, "OK, what should we call them?" That completely > changed the tone of the conversation and we worked something out. > That's it. Master/slave, and other such "non-PC" terms do a perfectly good job. They are a lot better than Alice and Bob - those are terms from cryptography, rather than SPI buses. > I don't recall the terms we came up with, but the conversation made > her happy and we never had that conversation again. Win-win. >
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 19:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rrb1t6$m6q$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #30198 |
On 2020-12-15, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > That's it. Master/slave, and other such "non-PC" terms do a perfectly > good job. They are a lot better than Alice and Bob - those are terms > from cryptography, rather than SPI buses. I assumed that the whole Alice/Bob thing was a joke... -- Grant
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-16 08:59 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <rrcepd$lo9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30199 |
On 15/12/2020 20:13, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2020-12-15, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > >> That's it. Master/slave, and other such "non-PC" terms do a perfectly >> good job. They are a lot better than Alice and Bob - those are terms >> from cryptography, rather than SPI buses. > > I assumed that the whole Alice/Bob thing was a joke... > I assume so too (though these names /are/ used in cryptography), but they are fine examples of what you get when you try to pick terms that have no connotations of one thing controlling other things. And unfortunately it is no joke that some people and companies are trying to change terms like master/slave in technical usage.
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| From | Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-17 17:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ICF*TpU9x@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> |
| In reply to | #30205 |
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > I assume so too (though these names /are/ used in cryptography), but > they are fine examples of what you get when you try to pick terms that > have no connotations of one thing controlling other things. And > unfortunately it is no joke that some people and companies are trying to > change terms like master/slave in technical usage. IMHO words are just words. We could call the things A and B, Alice and Bob, aadvark and buzzard, it doesn't really matter. However, it may be the existing choice of words is upsetting to some people. If that's the case, perhaps they should suggest some new words. If we find some words that are less upsetting all round, that's a win. Some people say 'well I'm not upset by them so why should we change?'. And of course if you don't see the problem, why would you be motivated to do so? So why not leave it to those who want to propose some better ones, and let's adopt those? What it doesn't need is to blow it up into a culture war demonising about 'those people undermining XYZ values' and seek to defend the pre-existing state of affairs just because it was pre-existing, rather than any intrinsic merits of the situation. Theo
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| From | Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-17 11:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <rrg8eg$rro$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30217 |
On 12/17/2020 10:04 AM, Theo wrote: > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: >> I assume so too (though these names /are/ used in cryptography), but >> they are fine examples of what you get when you try to pick terms that >> have no connotations of one thing controlling other things. And >> unfortunately it is no joke that some people and companies are trying to >> change terms like master/slave in technical usage. > > IMHO words are just words. We could call the things A and B, Alice and Bob, > aadvark and buzzard, it doesn't really matter. Of course it does! Words are meant to convey ideas/concepts. We choose words that map neatly to the concepts that we're trying to discuss. Should all variable names be of the form "V<integer>"? How much harder would that make sorting out the intent of a particular coded algorithm? We could call the horizontal axis "gertrude" and vertical axis "banana"; I wonder how long it would take for folks to get THOSE straight in their minds? And, what /mnemonic aids/ would they develop to facilitate that? (i.e., how would they MAP those names to REAL concepts?) > However, it may be the existing choice of words is upsetting to some people. > If that's the case, perhaps they should suggest some new words. If we find > some words that are less upsetting all round, that's a win. The time for that is before the concepts are codified and the terms (to be REPLACED) widely circulated. You don't, now, decide that we should call all these electronic computing devices "thinkatrons" (TmReg). Imagine the hassle trying to reinterpret previous literature in light of this ARBITRARILY newer name! > Some people say 'well I'm not upset by them so why should we change?'. > And of course if you don't see the problem, why would you be motivated to do > so? So why not leave it to those who want to propose some better > ones, and let's adopt those? Again, why? Should we decide black has bad connotations for use as a ground conductor (esp given that it is the HOT conductor in AC mains)? Maybe we should just rename that color as "fred", going forward! > What it doesn't need is to blow it up into a culture war demonising about > 'those people undermining XYZ values' and seek to defend the pre-existing > state of affairs just because it was pre-existing, rather than any intrinsic > merits of the situation. Times (and attitudes) change. Do we keep rewriting our history to comply with the current set of pleasantries? Or, do we adjust things GOING FORWARD to reflect current sensibilities and learn to live with that which has come before as a sign of our evolution?
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-17 20:25 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <rrgbbm$iel$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #30217 |
On 17/12/2020 18:04, Theo wrote: > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: >> I assume so too (though these names /are/ used in cryptography), but >> they are fine examples of what you get when you try to pick terms that >> have no connotations of one thing controlling other things. And >> unfortunately it is no joke that some people and companies are trying to >> change terms like master/slave in technical usage. > > IMHO words are just words. We could call the things A and B, Alice and Bob, > aadvark and buzzard, it doesn't really matter. > > However, it may be the existing choice of words is upsetting to some people. > If that's the case, perhaps they should suggest some new words. If we find > some words that are less upsetting all round, that's a win. > > Some people say 'well I'm not upset by them so why should we change?'. > And of course if you don't see the problem, why would you be motivated to do > so? So why not leave it to those who want to propose some better > ones, and let's adopt those? > > What it doesn't need is to blow it up into a culture war demonising about > 'those people undermining XYZ values' and seek to defend the pre-existing > state of affairs just because it was pre-existing, rather than any intrinsic > merits of the situation. > That's all fine. But what we have with terms such as master/slave bus nodes is that none (to my knowledge) of the people using them are upset by them, nor are people who might reasonably be bothered by such words (people who have been slaves, or had some connection to people who have been slaves). The people getting their knickers in a twist about these terms are over-active extremist "social justice warriors" who are not content with finding things that bother people, but are telling people what should bother them. (I have nothing against social justice or political correctness - I'm ready to fight against all sorts of bigotry or injustice. But I am against extremism in any guise - too much of a good thing is very rarely still a good thing.) If I were to hear someone say "You know theses boards we are designing? It bothers me that some nodes are referred to as master nodes and some as slave nodes", I'd look for new terms. If I were to hear "You know these wireless speakers you make that come in master/slave pairs? Those names bother me, because I have often been told that we black people should still be slaves", I'd look for new terms. If I hear that people are /actually/ bothered by the use of these terms in my work or my field, then I'll try to change them. But until that time, I see no benefit in changed well-known and well-understood terms to things without meaning that will cause confusion, error and unnecessary work.
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| From | Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-12-15 21:28 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <i3sh34Fcf0oU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #30195 |
On 2020-12-15 18:34, Rick C wrote: > On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 5:59:42 AM UTC-5, David Brown > wrote: >>> >> The software world is full of terms that can offend people if >> people choose to be offended. > > Sorry, I stopped listening to you after you showed extreme > ignorance. > > Yeah, people can be offended by things we think of as innocent. I > recall a female assembler being offended by the use of the terms male > and female for connectors. I tried to reason with her for a bit, > then I asked, "OK, what should we call them?" That completely > changed the tone of the conversation and we worked something out. > > I don't recall the terms we came up with, but the conversation made > her happy and we never had that conversation again. Win-win. "Pin" and "socket" should be clear and offend no-one.
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