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Gerbv

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  Gerbv gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-08-16 12:22 -0700
    Re: Gerbv Chris <c@b.a> - 2018-08-17 11:52 +1000
      Re: Gerbv gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-08-16 21:58 -0700
        Re: Gerbv Jack <jack4747@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 22:41 -0700
        Re: Gerbv Chris <c@b.a> - 2018-08-17 17:28 +1000
    Re: Gerbv Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-08-17 12:34 +0100
      Re: Gerbv Tim <tim@bugblat.invalid> - 2018-08-17 14:27 +0100
        Re: Gerbv Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-08-17 19:15 +0100
          Re: Gerbv Tim <tim@bugblat.invalid> - 2018-08-17 22:27 +0100
            Re: Gerbv Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-08-18 13:13 +0100
              Re: Gerbv Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2018-08-18 08:27 -0700
              Re: Gerbv Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2018-08-18 20:22 +0300
                Re: Gerbv Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2018-08-18 23:33 +0100
                  Re: Gerbv Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2018-08-19 13:09 +0300
                    Re: Gerbv Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2018-08-19 23:30 +0100
                      Re: Gerbv Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2018-08-20 01:44 +0300
                        Re: Gerbv Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2018-08-20 01:12 +0100
                          Re: Gerbv Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2018-08-20 12:58 +0300
                            Re: Gerbv Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2018-08-20 13:55 +0100
                    Re: Gerbv lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2018-08-21 11:22 -0700
      Re: Gerbv gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-08-17 07:37 -0700

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#27968 — Gerbv

Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?  I'm having a problem where a few drill locations in a drill file look out of location.  I seem to have narrowed the problem to the use of trailing zero suppression.  I can verify the drill file (which contains only line feeds it appears, so not so easy to view) has a few entries with the trailing zero suppressed.  In Gerbv these are all being interpreted as if zero suppression were off.  In fact, it tells me when it translates automatically, it is using no zero suppression.  If I manually turn on trailing zero suppression it so munges the drill file that no drill show up on the screen at all and if I click the zoom to extents button it takes me far off the board and shows me a small area with no visible features.

Is this broken in Gerbv?  I'm going to ask the fab house to turn off zero suppression and see if that fixes the problem at my end.

Rick C.

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#27969

On 17/08/2018 5:22 am, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?  I'm having a problem where a few drill locations in a drill file look out of location.  I seem to have narrowed the problem to the use of trailing zero suppression.  I can verify the drill file (which contains only line feeds it appears, so not so easy to view) has a few entries with the trailing zero suppressed.  In Gerbv these are all being interpreted as if zero suppression were off.  In fact, it tells me when it translates automatically, it is using no zero suppression.  If I manually turn on trailing zero suppression it so munges the drill file that no drill show up on the screen at all and if I click the zoom to extents button it takes me far off the board and shows me a small area with no visible features.
> 
> Is this broken in Gerbv?  I'm going to ask the fab house to turn off zero suppression and see if that fixes the problem at my end.
> 
> Rick C.
> 

FWIW, I only ever send the drill ident.gbr map and never checked the 
.drl file.

What I see is similar to you: that gerbv seems to be interpreting values 
at 1/10 of what they should be. For example:

In the original .drl file a coordinate such as X07904Y02588 is being 
interpreted as X = 790.4mil Y = 258.8mil instead of 7904mil & 2588mil resp.

If I manually edit the drl file to remove the leading zeros and add a 
trailing one then it comes good.

This is with Gerbv v2.6A. Like I said: FWIW.
-- 
Chris.

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#27970

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 9:52:10 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:
> On 17/08/2018 5:22 am, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> > Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?  I'm having a problem where a few drill locations in a drill file look out of location.  I seem to have narrowed the problem to the use of trailing zero suppression.  I can verify the drill file (which contains only line feeds it appears, so not so easy to view) has a few entries with the trailing zero suppressed.  In Gerbv these are all being interpreted as if zero suppression were off.  In fact, it tells me when it translates automatically, it is using no zero suppression.  If I manually turn on trailing zero suppression it so munges the drill file that no drill show up on the screen at all and if I click the zoom to extents button it takes me far off the board and shows me a small area with no visible features.
> > 
> > Is this broken in Gerbv?  I'm going to ask the fab house to turn off zero suppression and see if that fixes the problem at my end.
> > 
> > Rick C.
> > 
> 
> FWIW, I only ever send the drill ident.gbr map and never checked the 
> .drl file.
> 
> What I see is similar to you: that gerbv seems to be interpreting values 
> at 1/10 of what they should be. For example:
> 
> In the original .drl file a coordinate such as X07904Y02588 is being 
> interpreted as X = 790.4mil Y = 258.8mil instead of 7904mil & 2588mil resp.
> 
> If I manually edit the drl file to remove the leading zeros and add a 
> trailing one then it comes good.
> 
> This is with Gerbv v2.6A. Like I said: FWIW.

What program is generating your file?  

I'm also using v2.6a.  Gerbv seems to have manual controls but defaults to automatic.  I tried setting trailing zero suppresion and it didn't work.  You seem to be using both trailing and leading zero suppresion which won't work anywhere.  If you lop off a zero at the beginning and one at the end, who could you figure out where the zeros were lopped off?  In your case I would have the generating software not trailing zero suppress (it doesn't save so much in the file anyway).  Or if there is nothing in the 0.1 mil digit, you can tell Gerbv there are only 3 bits past the decimal point.  Don't know if this will work since this feature seems to be less than tested. 

In my case I found I needed a command, INCH,LZ which says work in inches and leading zeros are included which means missing digits are assumed to be trailing zeros. 

Rick C.

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#27971

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 6:58:58 AM UTC+2, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
 
> I'm also using v2.6a.

I would try the newer version: 2.6.2

Bye Jack

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#27972

On 17/08/2018 2:58 pm, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 9:52:10 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:
>> On 17/08/2018 5:22 am, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?  I'm having a problem where a few drill locations in a drill file look out of location.  I seem to have narrowed the problem to the use of trailing zero suppression.  I can verify the drill file (which contains only line feeds it appears, so not so easy to view) has a few entries with the trailing zero suppressed.  In Gerbv these are all being interpreted as if zero suppression were off.  In fact, it tells me when it translates automatically, it is using no zero suppression.  If I manually turn on trailing zero suppression it so munges the drill file that no drill show up on the screen at all and if I click the zoom to extents button it takes me far off the board and shows me a small area with no visible features.
>>>
>>> Is this broken in Gerbv?  I'm going to ask the fab house to turn off zero suppression and see if that fixes the problem at my end.
>>>
>>> Rick C.
>>>
>>
>> FWIW, I only ever send the drill ident.gbr map and never checked the
>> .drl file.
>>
>> What I see is similar to you: that gerbv seems to be interpreting values
>> at 1/10 of what they should be. For example:
>>
>> In the original .drl file a coordinate such as X07904Y02588 is being
>> interpreted as X = 790.4mil Y = 258.8mil instead of 7904mil & 2588mil resp.
>>
>> If I manually edit the drl file to remove the leading zeros and add a
>> trailing one then it comes good.
>>
>> This is with Gerbv v2.6A. Like I said: FWIW.
> 
> What program is generating your file?

I'm using DesignSpark PCB 8.1.1 to generate the Gerbers.

> I'm also using v2.6a.  Gerbv seems to have manual controls but defaults to automatic.  I tried setting trailing zero suppresion and it didn't work.  You seem to be using both trailing and leading zero suppresion which won't work anywhere.  If you lop off a zero at the beginning and one at the end, who could you figure out where the zeros were lopped off?  In your case I would have the generating software not trailing zero suppress (it doesn't save so much in the file anyway).  Or if there is nothing in the 0.1 mil digit, you can tell Gerbv there are only 3 bits past the decimal point.  Don't know if this will work since this feature seems to be less than tested.
> 
> In my case I found I needed a command, INCH,LZ which says work in inches and leading zeros are included which means missing digits are assumed to be trailing zeros.
> 
> Rick C.

This sort of thing isn't bread and butter stuff for me so that's one 
reason I haven't paid much (any!) attention to the .drl drawing 
particularly. I just used a cheapo PCB fab found at random on the 'net 
and they didn't require/ask for .drl files.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
--
Chris.

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#27973

gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?

Yes.  I use it to laser cut mechanical templates before fab.

>  I'm having a problem where a few drill locations in a drill file look out
> of location.  I seem to have narrowed the problem to the use of trailing
> zero suppression.  I can verify the drill file (which contains only line
> feeds it appears, so not so easy to view) has a few entries with the
> trailing zero suppressed.  In Gerbv these are all being interpreted as if
> zero suppression were off.  In fact, it tells me when it translates
> automatically, it is using no zero suppression.  If I manually turn on
> trailing zero suppression it so munges the drill file that no drill show
> up on the screen at all and if I click the zoom to extents button it takes
> me far off the board and shows me a small area with no visible features.

I've used (I think) the default settings in Kicad and drill files and
gerbers match, so I haven't tried fiddling with settings in gerbv.  The
board houses (including entirely-automated-nobody-speaks-English board
houses in China) have been fine with them.  Also Altium, but I don't
remember whether I changed the settings.

It may be that Kicad is outputting a different format by default to not trip
into this.  Can you change your output settings?
 
Theo

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#27975

On 17/08/2018 12:34, Theo Markettos wrote:
> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>> Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?
> 
> Yes.  I use it to laser cut mechanical templates before fab.

"Mechanical template" is a space model?

And who do you use for the laser cutting?

Tim

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#27977

Tim <tim@bugblat.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/08/2018 12:34, Theo Markettos wrote:
> > gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Anyone using Gerbv as a Gerber viewer?
> > 
> > Yes.  I use it to laser cut mechanical templates before fab.
> 
> "Mechanical template" is a space model?

Yes.  A piece of cardboard of the same thickness, shape and with the same
holes as the PCB, to 1:1 scale.

> And who do you use for the laser cutting?

Ourselves.  We have a GCC Laserpro Spirit 40W laser cutter.

The flow is:
Kicad export to gerber
Gerber opened in gerbv
only display the layers to be cut.  The GCC allows one raster layer and
multiple vector layers - my usual flow is raster for images to etch like
tracks, one layer for holes, another layer for edge cuts.  Give each layer a
distinct colour (black=raster, red=holes, green=edge)
Export as EPS, load into Adobe Illustrator CS3 (the laser cutter only plays
nicely with a few programs)
Tidy up the EPS to keep the laser cutter happy (line thickness = 0.01pt,
make sure objects have the right line colours)
'Print' to the laser cutter, setting appropriate powers for the different
colours.  The red (holes) layer is cut before the green (edge) layer.

It works quite well, and is handy for debugging mechanical issues before
going to fab.

Theo

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#27978

On 17/08/2018 19:15, Theo Markettos wrote:

<snip>

>> And who do you use for the laser cutting?
> 
> Ourselves.  We have a GCC Laserpro Spirit 40W laser cutter.
> 
> The flow is:
> Kicad export to gerber
> Gerber opened in gerbv
> only display the layers to be cut.  The GCC allows one raster layer and
> multiple vector layers - my usual flow is raster for images to etch like
> tracks, one layer for holes, another layer for edge cuts.  Give each layer a
> distinct colour (black=raster, red=holes, green=edge)
> Export as EPS, load into Adobe Illustrator CS3 (the laser cutter only plays
> nicely with a few programs)
> Tidy up the EPS to keep the laser cutter happy (line thickness = 0.01pt,
> make sure objects have the right line colours)
> 'Print' to the laser cutter, setting appropriate powers for the different
> colours.  The red (holes) layer is cut before the green (edge) layer.
> 
> It works quite well, and is handy for debugging mechanical issues before
> going to fab.


Sounds great. And only "from $21,995" :) Until I'm a millionaire I'll 
keep getting semi-routed double sided boards from China...

Tim

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#27979

Tim <tim@bugblat.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/08/2018 19:15, Theo Markettos wrote:
> Sounds great. And only "from $21,995" :) Until I'm a millionaire I'll 
> keep getting semi-routed double sided boards from China...

Well, unless your boards are 1m x 60cm x 1 inch thick, I think our laser
cutter might be a /little/ overkill :)

There are small lower power laser cutters that do a few watts for a few
hundred dollars, which might be suitable for cardboard.  This sort of thing,
though it might need a higher power version, and different software:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEJE-DK-BL-1500mw-Laser-Engraver-Cutter-Engraving-Carving-Machine-Printer-350DPI/282292190327

Theo

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#27980

On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 8:13:19 AM UTC-4, Theo Markettos wrote:
> Well, unless your boards are 1m x 60cm x 1 inch thick, I think our laser
> cutter might be a /little/ overkill :)
> 
> There are small lower power laser cutters that do a few watts for a few
> hundred dollars, which might be suitable for cardboard.  This sort of thing...

https://mcuoneclipse.com/2017/08/13/getting-control-over-a-50-watt-co2-laser-cutter-from-china/

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#27981

On 18.8.2018 г. 15:13, Theo Markettos wrote:
> Tim <tim@bugblat.invalid> wrote:
>> On 17/08/2018 19:15, Theo Markettos wrote:
>> Sounds great. And only "from $21,995" :) Until I'm a millionaire I'll
>> keep getting semi-routed double sided boards from China...
>
> Well, unless your boards are 1m x 60cm x 1 inch thick, I think our laser
> cutter might be a /little/ overkill :)
>
> There are small lower power laser cutters that do a few watts for a few
> hundred dollars, which might be suitable for cardboard.  This sort of thing,
> though it might need a higher power version, and different software:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEJE-DK-BL-1500mw-Laser-Engraver-Cutter-Engraving-Carving-Machine-Printer-350DPI/282292190327
>
> Theo
>

Somewhat remotely related but while on a mechanical wave perhaps
someone would weigh in as to how to weld PT100 leads to teflon
wire. Soldering is not an option, they work around 300C and if
they lose feedback etc. they could get to 400. Well at 400 the
joint will not be the only victim but still.
Any experiences?

Dimiter

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI             http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/

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#27982

On 08/18/18 18:22, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:


>
> Somewhat remotely related but while on a mechanical wave perhaps
> someone would weigh in as to how to weld PT100 leads to teflon
> wire. Soldering is not an option, they work around 300C and if
> they lose feedback etc. they could get to 400. Well at 400 the
> joint will not be the only victim but still.
> Any experiences?
>

Do search on "pulse arc welder". Used for very thin wire welding,
thermocouples etc...


Chris

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#27983

On 19.8.2018 г. 01:33, Chris wrote:
> On 08/18/18 18:22, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Somewhat remotely related but while on a mechanical wave perhaps
>> someone would weigh in as to how to weld PT100 leads to teflon
>> wire. Soldering is not an option, they work around 300C and if
>> they lose feedback etc. they could get to 400. Well at 400 the
>> joint will not be the only victim but still.
>> Any experiences?
>>
>
> Do search on "pulse arc welder". Used for very thin wire welding,
> thermocouples etc...
>
>
> Chris
>

Thanks, I think I get it how it is done now. Not sure I'll buy
such a welder though, I only need a few welded for now.

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#27984

On 08/19/18 11:09, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:

>
> Thanks, I think I get it how it is done now. Not sure I'll buy
> such a welder though, I only need a few welded for now.

I had a similar problem a year or so ago when rebuilding an old
HP double oven frequency standard, where the heater element was
probably nichrome, and which needed to be bonded to ptfe tinned
copper wire. Thought the pulse arc welders very good, but as you
imply, too expensive for a one of job. Eventually used a power
supply to charge a large electrolytic and a tungsten probe in
series with an iron cored choke to generate an arc on break. A
few tries at various voltage levels got the job done as per a
proper pulse arc welder...

Chris

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#27985

On 20.8.2018 г. 01:30, Chris wrote:
> On 08/19/18 11:09, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks, I think I get it how it is done now. Not sure I'll buy
>> such a welder though, I only need a few welded for now.
>
> I had a similar problem a year or so ago when rebuilding an old
> HP double oven frequency standard, where the heater element was
> probably nichrome, and which needed to be bonded to ptfe tinned
> copper wire. Thought the pulse arc welders very good, but as you
> imply, too expensive for a one of job. Eventually used a power
> supply to charge a large electrolytic and a tungsten probe in
> series with an iron cored choke to generate an arc on break. A
> few tries at various voltage levels got the job done as per a
> proper pulse arc welder...
>
> Chris
>

Oh thanks, this is very encouraging. I think I can manage it somehow.
The best part of it is that you did not use any inert gas?
I have a handful of 4700 uF caps - some fast, some not - in a drawer
here, might just do the job... I'll experiment around next few days.

Please share any details you might remember - voltage, capacitance
etc., I mean ballpark range.

Dimiter

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#27986

On 08/19/18 23:44, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:

>
> Oh thanks, this is very encouraging. I think I can manage it somehow.
> The best part of it is that you did not use any inert gas?
> I have a handful of 4700 uF caps - some fast, some not - in a drawer
> here, might just do the job... I'll experiment around next few days.
>
> Please share any details you might remember - voltage, capacitance
> etc., I mean ballpark range.
>
> Dimiter
>

It was all a bit of a hack, but it was using the stored energy
in the choke, back emf, to generate the arc on break. The choke
was an old C core item, about  4" square, 5 amp rating, fwir.
Wires stripped off and tightly twisted together, trimmed level
at the ends, then copper clip to the twists and a tungsten
scriber for the electrode at the tip.

Tried various approaches, but thinking back, used a psu in
current limit mode to charge the inductor, then arc on break.
It's possible to get a neat rounded weld without gas, but it
is a bit hit and miss. As this was to be refoamed up, used a
magnifier to make sure there was a good weld between the two
metals.

If you have one of the old 5v 100amp or more computer psus, you
could try that with home made copper electrodes to crush spot
weld the twisted wires at the ends, as an alternative method.
Not everyone has a junk box with iron cored chokes these days,
though a large 50Hz low voltage transformer secondary winding
might get the job done. Just got to experiment :-)...

Chris

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#27987

On 20.8.2018 г. 03:12, Chris wrote:
> On 08/19/18 23:44, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>
>>
>> Oh thanks, this is very encouraging. I think I can manage it somehow.
>> The best part of it is that you did not use any inert gas?
>> I have a handful of 4700 uF caps - some fast, some not - in a drawer
>> here, might just do the job... I'll experiment around next few days.
>>
>> Please share any details you might remember - voltage, capacitance
>> etc., I mean ballpark range.
>>
>> Dimiter
>>
>
> It was all a bit of a hack, but it was using the stored energy
> in the choke, back emf, to generate the arc on break. The choke
> was an old C core item, about  4" square, 5 amp rating, fwir.
> Wires stripped off and tightly twisted together, trimmed level
> at the ends, then copper clip to the twists and a tungsten
> scriber for the electrode at the tip.
>
> Tried various approaches, but thinking back, used a psu in
> current limit mode to charge the inductor, then arc on break.
> It's possible to get a neat rounded weld without gas, but it
> is a bit hit and miss. As this was to be refoamed up, used a
> magnifier to make sure there was a good weld between the two
> metals.
>
> If you have one of the old 5v 100amp or more computer psus, you
> could try that with home made copper electrodes to crush spot
> weld the twisted wires at the ends, as an alternative method.
> Not everyone has a junk box with iron cored chokes these days,
> though a large 50Hz low voltage transformer secondary winding
> might get the job done. Just got to experiment :-)...
>
> Chris

Thanks Chris, I'll try various hacks once I know it can be done.
I'll figure out something. I don't have a choke similar enough
to yours but I'll find something suitable somehow.
The alternative method you suggest I could try using the transformer
of an old microwave, replacing the HV secondary with 1-2 windings
of thick cable, I know people do it - not sure how it will work
on copper wires but well, it should melt them allright.

Dimiter

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#27988

On 08/20/18 10:58, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:

>
> Thanks Chris, I'll try various hacks once I know it can be done.
> I'll figure out something. I don't have a choke similar enough
> to yours but I'll find something suitable somehow.
> The alternative method you suggest I could try using the transformer
> of an old microwave, replacing the HV secondary with 1-2 windings
> of thick cable, I know people do it - not sure how it will work
> on copper wires but well, it should melt them allright.
>
> Dimiter
>

That might work well. Have a spotwelder in the workshop here, but
a bit to clunky for fine wire work. I'm still considering buying
one of the commercial pulse arc welders, but would look at those
made for jewelery work, rather than those for thermocouples, where
you put the twisted ends into a hole in the front panel. Afaics,
the jewellery use a tungsten electrode, where the tip is withdrawn
from the workpiece on contact. Then a hv supply starts an arc
across the subsequent small gap, conducting and forms a plasma
from the discharge of a capacitor. Seems a clever idea to me
and could be useful in the lab here for other purposes as well.
More fun to build one though, given the time :-).

I did tried soldering, as the oven temp is only ~60 c, but failed
miserably, even using acid flux...


Chris

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#27989

søndag den 19. august 2018 kl. 12.09.33 UTC+2 skrev Dimiter:
> On 19.8.2018 г. 01:33, Chris wrote:
> > On 08/18/18 18:22, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Somewhat remotely related but while on a mechanical wave perhaps
> >> someone would weigh in as to how to weld PT100 leads to teflon
> >> wire. Soldering is not an option, they work around 300C and if
> >> they lose feedback etc. they could get to 400. Well at 400 the
> >> joint will not be the only victim but still.
> >> Any experiences?
> >>
> >
> > Do search on "pulse arc welder". Used for very thin wire welding,
> > thermocouples etc...
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> 
> Thanks, I think I get it how it is done now. Not sure I'll buy
> such a welder though, I only need a few welded for now.

https://youtu.be/dRTplGUzw28?t=13m30s

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