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Tone Deafness

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  Tone Deafness Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2013-08-14 17:24 -0500
    Re: Tone Deafness Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2013-08-14 15:43 -0700
      Re: Tone Deafness Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2013-08-14 17:18 -0800
      Re: Tone Deafness David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2013-08-15 08:53 +0200
      Re: Tone Deafness josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-08-15 08:48 +0000
      Re: Tone Deafness Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 10:17 +0100
      Re: Tone Deafness Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 12:09 +0100
        Re: Tone Deafness Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-15 10:47 -0700
        Re: Tone Deafness gof@somewhere.invalid (Adam Wysocki) - 2013-08-28 18:44 +0000
    Re: Tone Deafness Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-08-14 22:51 +0000
    Re: Tone Deafness Fredxx <fredxx@nospam.com> - 2013-08-14 23:53 +0100
    Re: Tone Deafness Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 00:05 +0100
    Re: Tone Deafness Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 00:13 +0100
      Re: Tone Deafness Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-15 05:46 +0000
      Re: Tone Deafness Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-14 23:31 -0700
    Re: Tone Deafness John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2013-08-14 16:14 -0700
      Re: Tone Deafness Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2013-08-14 18:58 -0500
        Re: Tone Deafness Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 09:22 +0100
      Re: Tone Deafness RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> - 2013-08-15 07:53 -0700
        Re: Tone Deafness John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> - 2013-08-15 08:18 -0700
          Re: Tone Deafness "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2013-08-22 12:27 +0200
    Re: Tone Deafness Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-14 17:15 -0700
    Re: Tone Deafness Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-14 17:21 -0700
    Re: Tone Deafness Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 02:11 +0100
    Re: Tone Deafness Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-14 18:29 -0700
      Re: Tone Deafness "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-08-14 22:51 -0500
    Re: Tone Deafness Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-14 21:34 -0500
      Re: Tone Deafness "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-08-14 23:07 -0500
        Re: Tone Deafness "P E Schoen" <paul@peschoen.com> - 2013-08-15 21:48 -0400
        Re: Tone Deafness gof@somewhere.invalid (Adam Wysocki) - 2013-08-28 18:42 +0000
          Re: Tone Deafness "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-08-28 16:38 -0500
      Re: Tone Deafness Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 09:24 +0100
        Re: Tone Deafness pippo2@disney.com (Jack) - 2013-08-15 10:48 +0200
          Re: Tone Deafness Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 10:24 +0100
            Re: Tone Deafness Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 14:00 +0100
    Re: Tone Deafness Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-14 22:25 -0500
    Re: Tone Deafness Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-15 05:42 +0000
      Re: Tone Deafness "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2013-08-15 10:23 -0400
    Re: Tone Deafness "Tom Del Rosso" <tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> - 2013-08-15 08:30 -0400
      Re: Tone Deafness nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) - 2013-08-15 19:07 +0000
        Re: Tone Deafness "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2013-08-15 15:40 -0400
          Re: Tone Deafness "Tom Del Rosso" <tomd_u1@verizon.net.invalid> - 2013-08-16 22:23 -0400
            Re: Tone Deafness "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2013-08-17 04:26 -0400
              Re: Tone Deafness josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-08-18 05:00 +0000
              Re: Tone Deafness gof@somewhere.invalid (Adam Wysocki) - 2013-08-28 18:48 +0000
      Re: Tone Deafness Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-08-15 15:48 -0700
        Re: Tone Deafness Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-08-15 19:55 -0400
          Re: Tone Deafness Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-08-16 09:30 +0200
          Re: Tone Deafness Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-08-16 13:47 -0700
        Re: Tone Deafness T <kd1s.nospam@cox.nospam.net> - 2013-08-16 01:50 -0400
          Re: Tone Deafness Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-16 10:16 -0500
        Re: Tone Deafness Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2013-08-16 09:16 +0100
        Re: Tone Deafness gof@somewhere.invalid (Adam Wysocki) - 2013-08-28 18:50 +0000
          Re: Tone Deafness Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-08-28 19:44 -0700
            Re: Tone Deafness gof@somewhere.invalid (Adam Wysocki) - 2013-08-29 09:26 +0000
              Re: Tone Deafness Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-08-29 09:17 -0700
    Re: Tone Deafness Ecnerwal <MyNameForward@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> - 2013-08-15 12:05 -0400
      Re: Tone Deafness Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 17:29 +0100
        Re: Tone Deafness Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-08-15 18:00 +0100
        Re: Tone Deafness Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-15 11:16 -0700
          Re: Tone Deafness josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-08-16 02:56 +0000
            Re: Tone Deafness Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-15 21:47 -0700
              Re: Tone Deafness josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-08-17 16:36 +0000
                Re: Tone Deafness Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-17 11:49 -0700
    Re: Tone Deafness NotReallyMe <nrm@vallidatedsoftware.com> - 2013-08-16 10:23 -0700
      Re: Tone Deafness Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-16 17:29 +0000
        Re: Tone Deafness "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> - 2013-08-17 04:32 -0400
        Re: Tone Deafness "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2013-08-22 13:10 +0200
    Re: Tone Deafness Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com> - 2013-08-20 13:18 -0700
    Re: Tone Deafness bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-25 23:49 -0500
      Re: Tone Deafness bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-26 01:21 -0500
      Re: Tone Deafness Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-26 07:01 +0000
      Re: Tone Deafness josephkk <joseph_barrett@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-08-28 03:51 +0000

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#13061 — Tone Deafness

Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green 
and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference 
between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on 
the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally 
useless to me.

Needless to say, this is irritating.

Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone 
deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune, 
but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a 
"boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?

I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious 
reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only 
with sound.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

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#13062

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500
Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:

> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green 
> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference 
> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on 
> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally 
> useless to me.
> 
> Needless to say, this is irritating.
> 
> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone 
> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune, 
> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a 
> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
> 
> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious 
> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only 
> with sound.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Tim Wescott
> Wescott Design Services
> http://www.wescottdesign.com
> 

I can't imagine how that could be the case for anyone that wasn't
completely deaf.  Not being able to tell an A from a C is one thing,
but it seems like if you couldn't resolve octave differences you
wouldn't be able to understand English, let alone a tonal language like
Mandarin.

Ears are just simpler hardware.

-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.

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#13070

Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500
> Tim Wescott<tim@seemywebsite.really>  wrote:
>
>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green
>> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
>> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
>> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
>> useless to me.
>>
>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>
>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune,
>> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a
>> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>>
>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
>> with sound.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tim Wescott
>> Wescott Design Services
>> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>>
>
> I can't imagine how that could be the case for anyone that wasn't
> completely deaf.  Not being able to tell an A from a C is one thing,
> but it seems like if you couldn't resolve octave differences you
> wouldn't be able to understand English, let alone a tonal language like
> Mandarin.
>
> Ears are just simpler hardware.
>
   Lien hao

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#13081

On 15/08/13 00:43, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500
> Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:
> 
>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green 
>> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference 
>> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on 
>> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally 
>> useless to me.
>>
>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>
>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone 
>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune, 
>> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a 
>> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>>
>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious 
>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only 
>> with sound.
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Tim Wescott
>> Wescott Design Services
>> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>>
> 
> I can't imagine how that could be the case for anyone that wasn't
> completely deaf.  Not being able to tell an A from a C is one thing,
> but it seems like if you couldn't resolve octave differences you
> wouldn't be able to understand English, let alone a tonal language like
> Mandarin.

There is usually no problem with tone deaf people and tonal languages -
first, because tone deafness is less common among such speakers,
secondly because the jumps in pitch are quite large, and thirdly because
there are all sorts of other auditory queues as well as just the pitch.

> 
> Ears are just simpler hardware.
> 

Ears are incredibly complex hardware - they are nothing like
microphones.  In many ways, they are much more complex than eyes, which
deliver a relatively "raw" image from the retina (the visual processing
systems in the brain are seriously complex, of course).  You have more
nerves going from the brain to the ears in order to train and "program"
your ears in your first couple of years of life, than you have nerves
coming from the ears to the brain.

Tone deafness, however, is a defect in the brain rather than in the
ears.  It affects something like 5-10% of westerners, depending on how
it is classified.

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#13085

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:43:41 -0700, Rob Gaddi wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500
> Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:
> 
>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
>> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the
>> difference between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that
>> depends on the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED
>> is totally useless to me.
>> 
>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>> 
>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
>> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep"
>> and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>> 
>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
>> with sound.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Tim Wescott
>> Wescott Design Services
>> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>> 
>> 
> I can't imagine how that could be the case for anyone that wasn't
> completely deaf.  Not being able to tell an A from a C is one thing, but
> it seems like if you couldn't resolve octave differences you wouldn't be
> able to understand English, let alone a tonal language like Mandarin.
> 
> Ears are just simpler hardware.

You may be on to something there.  Though my mom died in my early 
twenties, i knew that she couldn't sing; total monotone.  but i'll bet 
she could hear the differences as she loved music and dancing.  It was 
kind of a family thing that they both loved "Donkey Serenade" from some 
comic opera, though it wasn't until many years/tears later before my dad 
died a couple of decades later that i understood.

There is a flaw in her voice.

?-)

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#13086

On 14/08/13 23:43, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> Ears are just simpler hardware.

Which clearly indicates you have no understanding
of the ear-brain combination. (Except for one
example of such, of course).

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#13088

On 14/08/2013 23:43, Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500
> Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:
>
>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green
>> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
>> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
>> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
>> useless to me.
>>
>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>
>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune,
>> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a
>> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>>
>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
>> with sound.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tim Wescott
>> Wescott Design Services
>> http://www.wescottdesign.com
>>
>
> I can't imagine how that could be the case for anyone that wasn't
> completely deaf.  Not being able to tell an A from a C is one thing,
> but it seems like if you couldn't resolve octave differences you
> wouldn't be able to understand English, let alone a tonal language like
> Mandarin.

You would be in trouble with Mandarin or any tonal language but I know 
someone who cannot reliably answer "up, down or same" to two pure tone 
notes played in succession (although this is incredibly rare).

Choosing two notes an octave apart is probably not a good idea. They 
would be hard for some perhaps many people to distinguish. I am not sure 
what the best combination or separation would be but a pure frequency 
sine wave for happy and a dischordant squarewave chord for unhappy ought 
to be distinguishable even by someone who is tone deaf.
>
> Ears are just simpler hardware.

If you count realtime Fourier analysis with additional temporal 
resolution on transients beyond what classical signal processing permits 
then yes they are "simple" hardware. In practice it is a lot harder than 
that and the ear is easily fooled by auditory illusions like the forever 
rising tone in shades of Escher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone


-- 
Regards,
Martin Brown

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#13098

Hi Martin,

On 8/15/2013 4:09 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> Choosing two notes an octave apart is probably not a good idea. They
> would be hard for some perhaps many people to distinguish. I am not sure
> what the best combination or separation would be but a pure frequency
> sine wave for happy and a dischordant squarewave chord for unhappy ought
> to be distinguishable even by someone who is tone deaf.

Why not just a solid tone vs. a chopped tone?  The problem arises
when you want to convey more than two states.

>> Ears are just simpler hardware.
>
> If you count realtime Fourier analysis with additional temporal
> resolution on transients beyond what classical signal processing permits
> then yes they are "simple" hardware. In practice it is a lot harder than
> that and the ear is easily fooled by auditory illusions like the forever
> rising tone in shades of Escher.

Agreed.  Ears / hearing are amazingly complex -- esp given their
"mechanical" nature.

I've spent a fair bit of time working with "3D" audio displays.
It is incredibly frustrating how the math *appears* to work
yet fails, miserably, when trying to simulate the placement of
an audio source in 3-space.

E.g., elevation is amazingly difficult to resolve.  Synthesized
sound appears to be located *inside* your head.  Front-back
reversals are common.  Yet, a "real person" interacting with sounds
in "real space" seldom encounters these same problems!  I.e., ITD
ILD/IAD/IID, HRTF don't seem to cover the whole problem (in terms of
classic signal processing?!)

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#13213

In comp.arch.embedded Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> If you count realtime Fourier analysis with additional temporal 
> resolution on transients beyond what classical signal processing permits 
> then yes they are "simple" hardware. In practice it is a lot harder than 
> that and the ear is easily fooled by auditory illusions like the forever 
> rising tone in shades of Escher.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_tone

Here you can find even more examples:

http://listverse.com/2008/02/29/top-10-incredible-sound-illusions/

AW

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#13063

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500, Tim Wescott wrote:

> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
> useless to me.
> 
> Needless to say, this is irritating.
> 
> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep"
> and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
> 
> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
> with sound.

Avoiding answering the question directly (that's the Usenet way, isn't it?):

Tone discrimination seems to be culturally mediated - some asian languages
are tonally dependent, and amazingly enough people from those lands have
a much higher incidence of "perfect pitch".  In western cultures perfect
pitch is a small minority.

That aside, I'd think about using tonal patterns - either changing frequency,
or making a quasi-Morse-code out of it.  There are some people that simply
can't "get" melody, but I'm fairly sure these are comparatively rare.  Maybe
go all the way and synthesize voice messages!

Oh yes - one day your color blindness may be history.  It's only been tested
in monkeys so far - but these animals (color blind from birth) have been
genetically treated to express color sensitive chemicals in their retinal
cone cells that they had lacked.  It has yet to be tested in humans (so far).
Not soon enough for your application, I'm sure :)

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#13064

On 14/08/2013 23:24, Tim Wescott wrote:
> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the
> difference between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment
> that depends on the operator being able to see the color of a
> bi-color LED is totally useless to me.
>
> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>
> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
> tune, but people who are unable to tell the difference between a
> "beep" and a "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic
> equipment?
>
> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone,
> only with sound.

Reg/Green colour blindness is very common. I thought most people could
discern blue and red.

I'm sure the same is true with frequency.

One issue with frequency is for most people pitch is relative, such that
I can tell the difference between two notes one after the other, but I
would be unlikely to discern which is which if you produced just the
one.  Perfect pitch hearing is very rare.

However I would have thought a form of modulation could overcome any
colour blindness or extreme tone deafness.

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#13065

On 14/08/2013 23:24, Tim Wescott wrote:
> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green
> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
> useless to me.

<snip>

My Dad is green/red colour blind.  He wired up the garden shed with our 
now old-fashioned red/black/green (live/neutral/earth) cable.  He could 
tell a difference, but didn't know which was which.

I'm not colour-blind. I fitted some more sockets. There was an incident.


Cheers
-- 
Syd

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#13066

On 14/08/2013 23:24, Tim Wescott wrote:
> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green
> and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
> useless to me.
>
> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>
> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune,
> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a
> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>
> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
> with sound.
>
I'm working with a USB thingy at the moment, trying to interface to some 
comms gear through a PC.  It goes hi-lo (be-dop) when I unplug it, and 
lo-hi (bo-dip) when I plug it in.

Fortunately, I'm not tone deaf, but it's hard to understand how anyone 
couldn't tell the large difference between two consecutive notes.

Cheers
-- 
Syd

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#13079

On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Aug 2013 00:13:48 +0100) it happened Syd Rumpo
<usenet@nononono.co.uk> wrote in <kuh2uf$9p5$1@dont-email.me>:


>Fortunately, I'm not tone deaf, but it's hard to understand how anyone 
>couldn't tell the large difference between two consecutive notes.

You never listened to heavy metal of course.

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#13080

Hi Syd,

On 8/14/2013 4:13 PM, Syd Rumpo wrote:

> I'm working with a USB thingy at the moment, trying to interface to some
> comms gear through a PC.  It goes hi-lo (be-dop) when I unplug it, and
> lo-hi (bo-dip) when I plug it in.
>
> Fortunately, I'm not tone deaf, but it's hard to understand how anyone
> couldn't tell the large difference between two consecutive notes.

Depends on what you mean by  "consecutive".

I.e., if they occur adjacent to each other in *time*, you still
have to be able to resolve the difference in pitch/frequency
to differentiate them.

E.g., if the two notes differ by a semitone, you or I can indicate
hi-lo vs. lo-hi.  But, this may not be possible for all "listeners".

And, if the "tune" contains more than two notes and/or rhythm,
most people have to subvocalize it to "remember" it long enough
to consult a chart (that explains what each "tune" means).  In
a sense, "sing" (hum) it to themselves, repeatedly, while
*visually* scanning a chart that says:

ding...dong.dong     error 93
ding.ding.ding       error 27
ding...dong...dong   error 15

etc.

(Try it and notice how *you* remember the annunciator while
attempting to look it up!  Then, have one of your friends
listen to it and try to convey that information to you
"over the phone".  Or, in an email...)

You want to choose "indications" that are sufficiently different
to maximize the chance of differentiating between them.  E.g.,
perhaps 6-12 semitones apart; durations that vary by a factor of
2 or 3, etc.  And, keep the number of "events" (indications?)
small so the user can hold the entire sequence in his/her short
term memory while trying to write it down, look it up, explain
it to someone else, etc.

The same holds for audible, visual, haptic, etc. interfaces.
(you often have to resort to combinations of each of these if
you want to design inclusively)

Or, just hope everyone that interacts with your product has 100%
sensory capabilities!  :>  (and be chagrined when you discover
just how many people are "impaired" in various ways -- and, how
*an* impairment can often be just "one of several")

~0.5% legally blind in the US (1.5M)
~8% of men are colorblind (doesn't affect women as much!)
~5% of 50+ have essential tremor
~1% of 60+ suffer from Parkinsonian tremor
~1.5% "deaf" (e.g., 4M in the US)
etc.

And that doesn't address other "physical" impairments, etc.

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#13067

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500, Tim Wescott
<tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:

>Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to green 
>and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference 
>between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on 
>the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally 
>useless to me.
>
>Needless to say, this is irritating.
>
>Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone 
>deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of tune, 
>but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a 
>"boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>
>I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious 
>reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only 
>with sound.

I hate those piezo beepers. They are annoying, and hard to localize.

If you use a small speaker, you can synthesize bell sounds, chirps,
patterns, structured stuff that sounds nicer and is easier for
everyone to distinguish. Make a cheerful sound for good things, a
raunchy one for errors, modulate amplitude if it might mean something.

I'm not tone deaf (my hearing is great, mechanically) but I don't like
music and I have a very hard time understanding accents. It's a
signal-processing thing.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro   acquisition and simulation

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#13068

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:14:25 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500, Tim Wescott
> <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:
> 
>>Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
>>green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
>>between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
>>the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
>>useless to me.
>>
>>Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>
>>Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>>deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
>>tune,
>>but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a
>>"boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>>
>>I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>>reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
>>with sound.
> 
> I hate those piezo beepers. They are annoying, and hard to localize.
> 
> If you use a small speaker, you can synthesize bell sounds, chirps,
> patterns, structured stuff that sounds nicer and is easier for everyone
> to distinguish. Make a cheerful sound for good things, a raunchy one for
> errors, modulate amplitude if it might mean something.

It's an add-on to an existing product, so I don't get much choice in 
annunciators.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

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#13082

On 15/08/13 00:58, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:14:25 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:24:54 -0500, Tim Wescott
>> <tim@seemywebsite.really> wrote:
>>
>>> Like a good percentage of human males, I'm partially color blind to
>>> green and red.  In my case, it's enough that I can't tell the difference
>>> between a green or a red LED -- so a piece of equipment that depends on
>>> the operator being able to see the color of a bi-color LED is totally
>>> useless to me.
>>>
>>> Needless to say, this is irritating.
>>>
>>> Does anyone on the group know how many people are really, truly tone
>>> deaf?  I don't just mean unable to hear when they're playing out of
>>> tune,
>>> but people who are unable to tell the difference between a "beep" and a
>>> "boop" when it's coming out of a piece of electronic equipment?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of communicating status via a beeper, and for obvious
>>> reasons I don't want to do the same "bicolor LED" crap to someone, only
>>> with sound.
>>
>> I hate those piezo beepers. They are annoying, and hard to localize.
>>
>> If you use a small speaker, you can synthesize bell sounds, chirps,
>> patterns, structured stuff that sounds nicer and is easier for everyone
>> to distinguish. Make a cheerful sound for good things, a raunchy one for
>> errors, modulate amplitude if it might mean something.
>
> It's an add-on to an existing product, so I don't get much choice in
> annunciators.

How are you going to "announce" what the sounds emitted
from the annunciator means? If people hear a noise, will
they actually do "the appropriate thing" (whatever that
might be)?

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#13093

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:14:25 -0700, John Larkin  
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>> ...snip...
> I'm not tone deaf (my hearing is great, mechanically) but I don't like
> music and I have a very hard time understanding accents. It's a
> signal-processing thing.
>
>

Good hearing? Play an instrument? Perhaps, you don't like music, only  
because its 'reproduction' is so poor.

However, the origin of 'not understanding accents' is not so clear.

I know no one asked, but for me, I CAN'T understand the words in the  
lyrics. I can be listening to the raunchiest song and not even know.

But, as everyone probably knows music is processed in a different brain  
location than speech, so the dichotomy can be explained.

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#13094

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:53:45 -0700, RobertMacy <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:14:25 -0700, John Larkin  
><jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>> ...snip...
>> I'm not tone deaf (my hearing is great, mechanically) but I don't like
>> music and I have a very hard time understanding accents. It's a
>> signal-processing thing.
>>
>>
>
>Good hearing? Play an instrument? Perhaps, you don't like music, only  
>because its 'reproduction' is so poor.

No, it mostly annoys me.

>
>However, the origin of 'not understanding accents' is not so clear.

They both have to do with the brain processing of sounds. My wife is a speech
pathologist and explained it to me. It's a variation of autism/asperger, where
one part of the brain is over-developed (visual/kinetic for me) and another part
is underfunded. But she can't change the battery in a flashlight.


-- 

John Larkin                  Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com   jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com   

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME  analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

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