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Editor recommendation

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  Editor recommendation Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-08-28 16:18 -0400
    Re: Editor recommendation David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-08-28 22:46 +0200
      Re: Editor recommendation chris <meru@devnull.com> - 2013-08-28 22:10 +0000
        Re: Editor recommendation dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2013-08-29 09:23 -0700
          Re: Editor recommendation Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2013-08-29 17:15 +0000
            Re: Editor recommendation dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2013-08-29 10:38 -0700
              Re: Editor recommendation Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2013-08-29 17:49 +0000
                Re: Editor recommendation dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2013-08-29 12:19 -0700
            Re: Editor recommendation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-29 12:16 -0700
          Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-29 11:32 -0700
            Re: Editor recommendation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-08-29 12:15 -0700
            Re: Editor recommendation dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2013-08-29 14:04 -0700
              Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-29 14:25 -0700
                Re: Editor recommendation Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-29 17:05 -0500
                  Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-29 16:32 -0700
                Re: Editor recommendation dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2013-08-29 15:44 -0700
                  Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-29 18:02 -0700
                    Re: Editor recommendation Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-08-30 13:22 +0200
                      Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-30 15:00 -0700
                        Re: Editor recommendation Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-08-31 02:17 +0200
                        Re: Editor recommendation Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2013-08-31 11:36 +0200
            Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-30 20:30 -0400
              Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-31 00:50 -0700
                Re: Editor recommendation Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2013-08-31 11:54 +0200
                  Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-31 10:17 -0400
                  Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-31 10:20 -0400
          Re: Editor recommendation chris <meru@devnull.com> - 2013-08-30 13:29 +0000
            Re: Editor recommendation dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2013-08-30 15:04 -0700
      Re: Editor recommendation George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2013-08-30 13:05 -0400
        Re: Editor recommendation chris <meru@devnull.com> - 2013-08-30 22:55 +0000
    Re: Editor recommendation Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-08-28 21:22 -0500
      Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-28 19:54 -0700
        Re: Editor recommendation Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2013-08-28 22:28 -0500
          Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-28 22:38 -0700
      Re: Editor recommendation George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2013-08-30 12:42 -0400
        Re: Editor recommendation Paul Urbanus <urb@urbonix.com> - 2013-09-02 21:20 -0500
          Re: Editor recommendation Paul Urbanus <urb@urbonix.com> - 2013-09-04 01:20 -0500
          Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-09-04 07:22 -0400
    Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-28 19:52 -0700
    Re: Editor recommendation bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-28 22:41 -0500
      Re: Editor recommendation chris <meru@devnull.com> - 2013-08-29 12:19 +0000
        Re: Editor recommendation bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-31 11:54 -0500
          Re: Editor recommendation chris <meru@devnull.com> - 2013-09-03 15:32 +0000
    Re: Editor recommendation Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-08-29 09:19 +0300
    Re: Editor recommendation Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-08-29 10:01 -0400
      Re: Editor recommendation Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-08-29 18:45 +0300
      Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-29 12:04 -0700
        Re: Editor recommendation Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-08-29 16:31 -0500
          Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-29 15:00 -0700
          Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-30 20:50 -0400
        Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-30 20:37 -0400
          Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-30 21:15 -0700
            Re: Editor recommendation Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2013-08-31 12:05 +0200
              Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-31 11:26 -0700
                Re: Editor recommendation Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2013-09-01 20:21 +0200
                  Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-09-01 17:02 -0700
                    Re: Editor recommendation Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2013-09-02 19:55 +0200
                      Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-09-02 16:22 -0700
                        Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-09-02 19:39 -0400
                          Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-09-02 17:51 -0700
                          Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-09-02 18:49 -0700
            Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-31 15:13 -0400
              Re: Editor recommendation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-31 13:45 -0700
    Re: Editor recommendation Habib Bouaziz-Viallet <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2013-08-29 16:31 +0200
      Re: Editor recommendation bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-31 12:03 -0500
        Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-08-31 13:27 -0400
          Re: Editor recommendation bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-31 13:17 -0500
        Re: Editor recommendation Habib Bouaziz-Viallet <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2013-09-01 19:16 +0200
          Re: Editor recommendation Randy Yates <yates@digitalsignallabs.com> - 2013-09-01 19:52 -0400
            Re: Editor recommendation chris <meru@devnull.com> - 2013-09-03 14:41 +0000
    Re: Editor recommendation jhallen@TheWorld.com (Joseph H Allen) - 2013-08-29 20:09 +0000
    Re: Editor recommendation stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-09-04 12:10 +0000

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#13216 — Editor recommendation

What editor would you recommend for code development?
Looking for something that understands C & C++ syntax, can define
projects, run external compilations, etc. and has active support.
My choice would be CodeWrite, (if it was still supported.)
For some reason never got used to Emacs, and Eclipse is too ginormous
for my taste.

Alternatives?

Thanks,
--
Roberto Waltman

[ Please reply to the group,
  return address is invalid ]

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#13217

On 28/08/13 22:18, Roberto Waltman wrote:
>
> What editor would you recommend for code development?
> Looking for something that understands C & C++ syntax, can define
> projects, run external compilations, etc. and has active support.
> My choice would be CodeWrite, (if it was still supported.)
> For some reason never got used to Emacs, and Eclipse is too ginormous
> for my taste.
>
> Alternatives?
>

I used to find Eclipse too big, slow and clumsy - but it has improved 
enormously in the last couple of years.  If it is a while since you last 
used it, I recommend trying again with the latest version.

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#13219

On 08/28/13 20:46, David Brown wrote:
> On 28/08/13 22:18, Roberto Waltman wrote:
>>
>> What editor would you recommend for code development?
>> Looking for something that understands C & C++ syntax, can define
>> projects, run external compilations, etc. and has active support.
>> My choice would be CodeWrite, (if it was still supported.)
>> For some reason never got used to Emacs, and Eclipse is too ginormous
>> for my taste.
>>
>> Alternatives?
>>
>
> I used to find Eclipse too big, slow and clumsy - but it has improved
> enormously in the last couple of years. If it is a while since you last
> used it, I recommend trying again with the latest version.
>
>

I've used nedit for years. Development stopped years ago, but it is open
source, so you can modify as you wish. Is language sensitive and has loads
of setup options. The most useful thing when I started using it was the
rectangular cut and paste, which I still use all the time, though the rest
of the world has caught up meantime. unix environment required, though it
works flawlessly with cygwin on windows. I still prefer a separate editor
/ makefile system, though ides are getting better.

Notepad++ is pretty good (windows), though there are niggles. Jedit is also
worth a look as well. One or both (?) of these has plugin capability and 
both
are in active development.

All quality product, free and open source...

Chris

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#13236

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:10:10 AM UTC+3, chris wrote:
>... The most useful thing when I started using it was the
> rectangular cut and paste, which I still use all the time, though the rest
> of the world has caught up meantime.

So the rest of the world slowly catches up I gather :-)? 
I have had rectangular cut and paste ever since I began
using my own editor (around 1990), had no idea who else
would have it and since when.
I wonder if the world has caught up with some useful key
combinations I introduced for myself back then (shift-up
or shift-down moves 4 lines, shift right moves to next
word etc.).
I suppose my editors (two of them, the second one came
for DPS around 1996 or 1997) have been a significant part
of what has made me as efficient as I am.

Sorry for the OT as I can't recommend any of the PC based
editors but sometimes like all of us I also need to talk
to people who understand what I am talking about :-).

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

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#13237

On 2013-08-29, dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:10:10 AM UTC+3, chris wrote:
>>... The most useful thing when I started using it was the
>> rectangular cut and paste, which I still use all the time, though the rest
>> of the world has caught up meantime.
>
> So the rest of the world slowly catches up I gather :-)? 
> I have had rectangular cut and paste ever since I began
> using my own editor (around 1990), had no idea who else
> would have it and since when.

Emacs has it, but I don't know when Emacs acquired it.

DEC's EVE/TPU editor for VMS has had box select/box cut functionality since
at least the early 1990s; I don't know when the functionality was added,
but EVE/TPU was created in the middle 1980s.

> I wonder if the world has caught up with some useful key
> combinations I introduced for myself back then (shift-up
> or shift-down moves 4 lines, shift right moves to next
> word etc.).

I've no need for moving up/down in units of 4 lines, but both DEC's
editors and Emacs have move by word functionality.

I don't know about others here, but I find DEC's EDT keypad mode, in
which common commands are mapped to the numeric keypad (the keypad is
placed into application keypad mode which causes escape sequences to
be sent instead of numbers) to be very useful indeed.

I find it useful enough that I have emacs setup to use it's built-in
emulation of EDT keypad mode. You either need a _good_ terminal emulator
to use it (for text mode) or to run a Emacs supplied keypad configuration
script (for GUI mode).

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

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#13238

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC+3, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2013-08-29, dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
>> ....
>> I wonder if the world has caught up with some useful key
>> combinations I introduced for myself back then (shift-up
>> or shift-down moves 4 lines, shift right moves to next
>> word etc.).
> 
> 
> I've no need for moving up/down in units of 4 lines,
> ...

How do you move vertically when you have to do it for long distances?
To me, shift-cursor up or down is may be the most frequently
used combination.

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

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#13239

On 2013-08-29, dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC+3, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> 
>> I've no need for moving up/down in units of 4 lines,
>> ...
>
> How do you move vertically when you have to do it for long distances?
> To me, shift-cursor up or down is may be the most frequently
> used combination.
>

Page up/page down, which is really screen up/screen down as it jumps in
units based on the terminal emulator/GUI window length (minus some
configurable overlap so you don't lose your place while scrolling
through the code).

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

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#13244

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:49:12 PM UTC+3, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2013-08-29, dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC+3, Simon Clubley wrote:
> >> 
> >> I've no need for moving up/down in units of 4 lines,
> >> ...
> >
> > How do you move vertically when you have to do it for long distances?
> > To me, shift-cursor up or down is may be the most frequently
> > used combination.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Page up/page down, which is really screen up/screen down as it jumps in
> units based on the terminal emulator/GUI window length (minus some
> configurable overlap so you don't lose your place while scrolling
> through the code).

Well I have page up and page down as well of course, and I also use
these extensively.
But moving say 25-30 lines up within a 50 line page is incomparably
faster/easier to do using the *4 cursor up (it takes having used
both to know how useful both are).
So the world has only partially caught up, as it turns out :-).

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

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#13242

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>> I have had rectangular cut and paste ever since I began
>> using my own editor (around 1990),
> Emacs has it, but I don't know when Emacs acquired it.

Probably in the 1970's on the PDP-10.

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#13240

Greetings Dimiter!

On 8/29/2013 9:23 AM, dp wrote:
> On Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:10:10 AM UTC+3, chris wrote:
>> ... The most useful thing when I started using it was the
>> rectangular cut and paste, which I still use all the time, though the rest
>> of the world has caught up meantime.
>
> So the rest of the world slowly catches up I gather :-)?
> I have had rectangular cut and paste ever since I began
> using my own editor (around 1990), had no idea who else
> would have it and since when.

Brief had rectangular cut & paste in the early 80's (my v2.1
manual is copyright 1984 and I'm pretty sure the feature
was present on earlier versions -- I'll have to chase down
a floppy .IMZ from my archives...)

> I wonder if the world has caught up with some useful key
> combinations I introduced for myself back then (shift-up
> or shift-down moves 4 lines, shift right moves to next
> word etc.).

In school (late 70's), forward/backward word/line/etc. was
a common feature on the (numeric) keypad on one of the
DEC? systems I used (I recall "red" and "gold"? keys as
command introducers)

[Of course, back then, each class had it's own INCOMPATIBLE
system... :< ]

> I suppose my editors (two of them, the second one came
> for DPS around 1996 or 1997) have been a significant part
> of what has made me as efficient as I am.

One of the most enjoyable features I have found is being able
to set the "cursor direction".  I first saw this feature on
The Electric Blackboard (under CP/M).

Basically, you defined the direction in which the cursor would
move after each keystroke.  One of the more common uses was to
move over to some column where on-line comments began (e.g., ~40)
set the cursor direction to *down* and then lean on, for example,
';' (to introduce comments).

This would have the effect of inserting (or replacing, depending
on which mode you were in) a semicolon in column 40 of each line
that you passed *through*.

It was also great for "ruling" tables, etc.

One of my common gripes with, e.g., emacs, vi, etc. is that I
can't just move to a random point ON THE SCREEN and start typing
AS IF the screen was filled with virtual whitespace (which would
automatically be inserted *iff* I actually needed it inserted
on a particular line in order to pad out to something I've
chosen to add "in column 72")

> Sorry for the OT as I can't recommend any of the PC based
> editors but sometimes like all of us I also need to talk
> to people who understand what I am talking about :-).

Hope Lucy isn't reading over your shoulder!!  :>

--don

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#13241

Don Y <this@isnotme.com> writes:
> One of my common gripes with, e.g., emacs, vi, etc. is that I
> can't just move to a random point ON THE SCREEN and start typing
> AS IF the screen was filled with virtual whitespace 

In Emacs, this is called Picture Mode.  Just say M-x picture-mode
to activate it.

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#13246

Hey Don,

> ...
> In school (late 70's), forward/backward word/line/etc. was
> a common feature on the (numeric) keypad on one of the
> DEC? 

Well my first keyboard did have cursor keys and they have
always been functioning :-).
But to have shift multiply the effect of up/down keys (among others)
by 4 (or whatever one feels is OK) was not - I introduced it in
my first editor, don't know who if anyone has done it before
on which platform. It is very convenient to have it.

One of the most enjoyable features I have found is being able
to set the "cursor direction".  I first saw this feature on
The Electric Blackboard (under CP/M).

> ...
> Basically, you defined the direction in which the cursor would
> move after each keystroke.  One of the more common uses was to
> move over to some column where on-line comments began (e.g., ~40)
>set the cursor direction to *down* and then lean on, for example,
> ';' (to introduce comments).
>
> This would have the effect of inserting (or replacing, depending
> on which mode you were in) a semicolon in column 40 of each line
> that you passed *through*. 

In my editor I do this by edit/copying a column which I want to
multiply, then I "paste" it (usually in replace mode) where I want
it. Usually I start with a 4 line column, once I duplicate it another
two keystrokes double it etc., can get as fast as needed.

> > Sorry for the OT as I can't recommend any of the PC based
> > editors but sometimes like all of us I also need to talk
> > to people who understand what I am talking about :-).
> 
> Hope Lucy isn't reading over your shoulder!!  :>

Hah, she would not mind that I am sure :D. She is pretty far
from doing that sort of thing (but she is quite good at learning
to use new gadgets).

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

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#13248

Hi Dimiter,

[I sent you a msg a week or two ago... perhaps wrong email addr?]

On 8/29/2013 2:04 PM, dp wrote:

>> Basically, you defined the direction in which the cursor would
>> move after each keystroke.  One of the more common uses was to
>> move over to some column where on-line comments began (e.g., ~40)
>> set the cursor direction to *down* and then lean on, for example,
>> ';' (to introduce comments).
>>
>> This would have the effect of inserting (or replacing, depending
>> on which mode you were in) a semicolon in column 40 of each line
>> that you passed *through*.
>
> In my editor I do this by edit/copying a column which I want to
> multiply, then I "paste" it (usually in replace mode) where I want
> it. Usually I start with a 4 line column, once I duplicate it another
> two keystrokes double it etc., can get as fast as needed.

I think the "cursor direction" feature is more intuitive -- once
you get used to it.

E.g., to number consecutive lines, you simply point down
and type "012345678901234567890...".  Then, move left a column
and invoke "repeat 10 X" (where X is 0, then 1, then 2, etc.)

Applies equally well to "numbering" lines with letters.  Or,
in different radix:  0123456701234567...

At the time (coming from more "conventional" editors -- qedx,
teco, etc.) it was a delightful feature (on a 6MHz 8b "workstation"!)

My best friend was very fond of writing macros -- for all sorts
of little things.  Of course, that meant he then had to keep
track of all of these and how to invoke each, what they did,
etc.  I much prefer a behavior that I can observe and intuitively
apply in different scenarios.  Much like the "copy two lines;
then four; then eight; etc."

>>> Sorry for the OT as I can't recommend any of the PC based
>>> editors but sometimes like all of us I also need to talk
>>> to people who understand what I am talking about :-).
>>
>> Hope Lucy isn't reading over your shoulder!!  :>
>
> Hah, she would not mind that I am sure :D. She is pretty far
> from doing that sort of thing (but she is quite good at learning
> to use new gadgets).

Isn't that a prerequisite, when living with an engineer?  :>

C complains each time I make some change in "how things work".  Of
course, I've only done so to *fix* something that wasn't working
properly at the time or to add some functionality -- often that
*she* requested!  :-/

("Why can't I get the DVD player to work?"  "Because you asked
me to hook up a VCR last night so you could watch that video
of your family!"  "Oh.  <shamed pause>  So, how do I get the
DVD to play, now?")

(sigh)  Can't win...
--don

P.S.  I will assume it is *finally* above 0C there?  :>
(we're *dropping* to the very high 30's)

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#13252

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:25:10 -0700, Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote:

>Hi Dimiter,
>
>[I sent you a msg a week or two ago... perhaps wrong email addr?]
>
>On 8/29/2013 2:04 PM, dp wrote:
>> Hah, she would not mind that I am sure :D. She is pretty far
>> from doing that sort of thing (but she is quite good at learning
>> to use new gadgets).
>
>Isn't that a prerequisite, when living with an engineer?  :>
>
>C complains each time I make some change in "how things work".  Of
>course, I've only done so to *fix* something that wasn't working
>properly at the time or to add some functionality -- often that
>*she* requested!  :-/
>
>("Why can't I get the DVD player to work?"  "Because you asked
>me to hook up a VCR last night so you could watch that video
>of your family!"  "Oh.  <shamed pause>  So, how do I get the
>DVD to play, now?")
>
>(sigh)  Can't win...


ITYM, "The person who bought the TV (or receiver) didn't get one with
enough A/V inputs".

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#13254

Hi Robert,

On 8/29/2013 3:05 PM, Robert Wessel wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:25:10 -0700, Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote:

>> Isn't that a prerequisite, when living with an engineer?  :>
>>
>> C complains each time I make some change in "how things work".  Of
>> course, I've only done so to *fix* something that wasn't working
>> properly at the time or to add some functionality -- often that
>> *she* requested!  :-/
>>
>> ("Why can't I get the DVD player to work?"  "Because you asked
>> me to hook up a VCR last night so you could watch that video
>> of your family!"  "Oh.  <shamed pause>  So, how do I get the
>> DVD to play, now?")
>>
>> (sigh)  Can't win...
>
> ITYM, "The person who bought the TV (or receiver) didn't get one with
> enough A/V inputs".

More like "I thought we were throwing this thing *away*??  Wasn't
that the reason I transferred all those tapes onto DVD in the first
place??!"

As I said, "can't win...".  Next month she'll be asking why it
*didn't* get thrown away!  :->

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#13253

On Friday, August 30, 2013 12:25:10 AM UTC+3, Don Y wrote:
> Hi Dimiter,
> 
>  
> [I sent you a msg a week or two ago... perhaps wrong email addr?]

Never got one. It is possible if you have sent it to the address I use
to post here (dp@... ) that I have just overlooked it, I get a few
hundred messages/day on it, almost all spam. Use some of the others
if that's the case or please just retry it, me not seeing it is very
low chance even at this address.


> On 8/29/2013 2:04 PM, dp wrote:
> 
> >> Basically, you defined the direction in which the cursor would
> >> move after each keystroke.  One of the more common uses was to
> >> move over to some column where on-line comments began (e.g., ~40)
> >> set the cursor direction to *down* and then lean on, for example,
> >> ';' (to introduce comments).
> >>
> >> This would have the effect of inserting (or replacing, depending
> >> on which mode you were in) a semicolon in column 40 of each line
> >> that you passed *through*.
> >
> > In my editor I do this by edit/copying a column which I want to
> > multiply, then I "paste" it (usually in replace mode) where I want
> > it. Usually I start with a 4 line column, once I duplicate it another
> > two keystrokes double it etc., can get as fast as needed.
> 
> I think the "cursor direction" feature is more intuitive -- once
> you get used to it.

It is more intuitive indeed, but once you get used to the "mark
and duplicate" method I have you get much faster when it comes
to larger quantities. Imagine you want to do it on 200 or 2000 lines;
chances are you will just look for an alternative method rather
than moving the cursor over each line.
The way it works for me is to mark the top of the duplicated column(s)
and once I duplicate I mark the entire column again, so each time
I "paste" I have it duplicated and can also duplicate what I
have to paste. So if I start with 4 lines after repeating
alt-m F3 alt-i 6 times I will have done 256 lines (unless I miscalculate,
give or take 1 repetition). Then the column I insert/replace can
contain anything and be of any width/height.

> E.g., to number consecutive lines, you simply point down
> and type "012345678901234567890...".  Then, move left a column
> and invoke "repeat 10 X" (where X is 0, then 1, then 2, etc.)

Well it is a way of doing it of course. My way is to make the first
ten lines manually, then copy it as many times as it takes, perhaps
multiplied. I suppose your method would be a bit faster for 10-20
lines, mine would probably be faster above that.

But these are things we rarely do anyway. It is important to have
them easily available so editor inconveniences do not make us
avoid doing what we really want to though.
I suppose the little things are the great time savers though,
like that move(scroll) 4 lines instead of one if shift is down,
move to next/previous word, delete from cursor back to word start
(that would be alt-left for me), delete from cursor until next
word (alt-right), erase to EOL (ctrl-right) etc. etc., things
we do hundreds if not thousands of times a day.

> 
> At the time (coming from more "conventional" editors -- qedx,
> teco, etc.) it was a delightful feature (on a 6MHz 8b "workstation"!)

I did my first text editor for my 2 MHz 6809 machine I had made.
Two 6809-s, actually; a "system" board and a "text/graphics terminal"
board, an 8 bit wide 1k FIFO between the two. I replicated the
keys on the second which is still the DPS system text editor I use
all the time (now running on a 400 MHz power, actually can run
multiple instances also of an emulation I did of the 6809 machine
under DPS. Obviously I added some new features then; time for yet another
overhaul now that we are at it :D.

> 
> >>> Sorry for the OT as I can't recommend any of the PC based
> >>> editors but sometimes like all of us I also need to talk
> >>> to people who understand what I am talking about :-).
> >>
> >> Hope Lucy isn't reading over your shoulder!!  :>
> >
> > Hah, she would not mind that I am sure :D. She is pretty far
> > from doing that sort of thing (but she is quite good at learning
> > to use new gadgets).
> 
> Isn't that a prerequisite, when living with an engineer?  :>

Hmm, I am not sure which I would prefer :D . This way when a
gadget (her laptop or the smartphone) is messed up in some
way guess who has to be available to fix things. Come to think
of it I am so used to being that guy that I don't even question
if I have to do it, whoever it is I have to rescue :D .


> 
> C complains each time I make some change in "how things work".  Of
> course, I've only done so to *fix* something that wasn't working
> properly at the time or to add some functionality -- often that
> *she* requested!  :-/

Well that sort of thing is similar here of course. Add to that that Lucy
often has to cope with system popup messages in English which she
more often than not does not understand... :D .

> 
> ("Why can't I get the DVD player to work?"  "Because you asked
> me to hook up a VCR last night so you could watch that video
> of your family!"  "Oh.  <shamed pause>  So, how do I get the
> DVD to play, now?")

Most of the time when I make that sort of changes Lucy is
alert and watching me, 

> 
> P.S.  I will assume it is *finally* above 0C there?  :>
> (we're *dropping* to the very high 30's)

Tell me about it. Summer is going to an end, we had only 6-7 weeks
of real summer (should have had 3-4 months). But it is still summerish,
hopefully for some time more.

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/

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#13255

Hi Dimiter,

On 8/29/2013 3:44 PM, dp wrote:
> On Friday, August 30, 2013 12:25:10 AM UTC+3, Don Y wrote:

>> [I sent you a msg a week or two ago... perhaps wrong email addr?]
>
> Never got one. It is possible if you have sent it to the address I use
> to post here (dp@... ) that I have just overlooked it, I get a few
> hundred messages/day on it, almost all spam. Use some of the others
> if that's the case or please just retry it, me not seeing it is very
> low chance even at this address.

I forwarded a copy just now.  Nothing important.  Just FYI...

>> E.g., to number consecutive lines, you simply point down
>> and type "012345678901234567890...".  Then, move left a column
>> and invoke "repeat 10 X" (where X is 0, then 1, then 2, etc.)
>
> Well it is a way of doing it of course. My way is to make the first
> ten lines manually, then copy it as many times as it takes, perhaps
> multiplied. I suppose your method would be a bit faster for 10-20
> lines, mine would probably be faster above that.

Yes.  As I said, I tend to just rely on using existing mechanisms
instead of having to "think" about how to approach it.  E.g., should
I write a piece of code to go through a file and substitute references
of
      <Figure XX: (continued on Page YY)>
with
      <Illustration XX: <italic>(see page YY)<\italic>>
or, should I do this with a keystroke macro inside a text editor?

> But these are things we rarely do anyway. It is important to have
> them easily available so editor inconveniences do not make us
> avoid doing what we really want to though.
> I suppose the little things are the great time savers though,
> like that move(scroll) 4 lines instead of one if shift is down,
> move to next/previous word, delete from cursor back to word start
> (that would be alt-left for me), delete from cursor until next
> word (alt-right), erase to EOL (ctrl-right) etc. etc., things
> we do hundreds if not thousands of times a day.

I find myself often hammering away on "up, left" (or down, etc.)
with my right hand while pecking at some other key with my left.
E.g., "$ up left" to insert a bunch of '$' in front a column of
monetary figures, etc.

You can actually get pretty good setting up a cadence if you do
it often!

>>>> Hope Lucy isn't reading over your shoulder!!  :>
>>>
>>> Hah, she would not mind that I am sure :D. She is pretty far
>>> from doing that sort of thing (but she is quite good at learning
>>> to use new gadgets).
>>
>> Isn't that a prerequisite, when living with an engineer?  :>
>
> Hmm, I am not sure which I would prefer :D . This way when a
> gadget (her laptop or the smartphone) is messed up in some
> way guess who has to be available to fix things. Come to think
> of it I am so used to being that guy that I don't even question
> if I have to do it, whoever it is I have to rescue :D .

Yes.  And, the expectation of *instant* service!

    "Gee, how did you deal with these sorts of problems AT WORK
    when you had to wait hours or days for someone to come and
    have a look at your machine?  Did you find OTHER THINGS TO
    DO while waiting? Or, did you sit and grumble about how long
    it was taking?"  :>

She now complains a lot less about all the kit I have stashed
around the house:
    "Don, my monitor just went black!"
    "OK, here's a new one.  I'll fix yours later..."

>> C complains each time I make some change in "how things work".  Of
>> course, I've only done so to *fix* something that wasn't working
>> properly at the time or to add some functionality -- often that
>> *she* requested!  :-/
>
> Well that sort of thing is similar here of course. Add to that that Lucy
> often has to cope with system popup messages in English which she
> more often than not does not understand... :D .

Ah.  You must learn to translate all of these into:

    "Total system failure.  Please turn the system off and wait at
    least 72 hours before attempting further use.  Error 788WQ3."

>> ("Why can't I get the DVD player to work?"  "Because you asked
>> me to hook up a VCR last night so you could watch that video
>> of your family!"  "Oh.  <shamed pause>  So, how do I get the
>> DVD to play, now?")
>
> Most of the time when I make that sort of changes Lucy is
> alert and watching me,

I usually do maintenance type things in the wee hours of the morning.
More convenient for my schedule.  And, I don't have to worry about
the "is it done, yet?" attitude.

>> P.S.  I will assume it is *finally* above 0C there?  :>
>> (we're *dropping* to the very high 30's)
>
> Tell me about it. Summer is going to an end, we had only 6-7 weeks
> of real summer (should have had 3-4 months). But it is still summerish,
> hopefully for some time more.

It seems like Summer started in February, here.  But, we have only
had ~50 days above 100F (average is 60 or so... 99 of them one
year!).  Of course, we'll probably *also* have a brutally cold
winter (for this area).  I'll have to take extra good care of the
new citrus plantings...

I can see how some folks like to have two "homes".  Though that
seems like it would be ripe for "Oh, crap!  The item I've spent the
past three days searching for must be at the *other* house!"  :-/

--don

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#13257

On 30.08.2013 03:02, Don Y wrote:
> Yes.  As I said, I tend to just rely on using existing mechanisms
> instead of having to "think" about how to approach it.  E.g., should
> I write a piece of code to go through a file and substitute references
> of
>       <Figure XX: (continued on Page YY)>
> with
>       <Illustration XX: <italic>(see page YY)<\italic>>
> or, should I do this with a keystroke macro inside a text editor?

Neither.  You should have an editor that supports search-and-replace via 
regular expressions, and use that.  E.g., and just because this 
particular editor hasn't been mentioned yet: in plain old vi, that would be

:1,$s/<Figure \([^:]*\): continued on Page \([^)]\)>/<Illustration \1: 
<italic>(see page \2)<\italic>>/g

(all in one line, not really tested)

> I find myself often hammering away on "up, left" (or down, etc.)
> with my right hand while pecking at some other key with my left.
> E.g., "$ up left" to insert a bunch of '$' in front a column of
> monetary figures, etc.

And you really shouldn't be.  Any programmer's editor really worth 
having has some sort of "rectangle fill" feature.  E.g. in Notepad++, 
you would just <Alt>-mark the column (i.e. drag the mouse while holding 
<Alt>, or move the cursor from one end to the other while holding 
Alt+Shift), then type a single $.  Done.  For more complicated cases, it 
can even fill in a sequence of numbers

In Emacs one would drop the mark (Ctrl-Space), move to the other end, 
then Ctrl-x r t $ <Ret>.

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#13262

Hi Hans-Bernhard,

On 8/30/2013 4:22 AM, Hans-Bernhard Bröker wrote:
> On 30.08.2013 03:02, Don Y wrote:
>> Yes.  As I said, I tend to just rely on using existing mechanisms
>> instead of having to "think" about how to approach it.  E.g., should
>> I write a piece of code to go through a file and substitute references
>> of
>>       <Figure XX: (continued on Page YY)>
>> with
>>       <Illustration XX: <italic>(see page YY)<\italic>>
>> or, should I do this with a keystroke macro inside a text editor?
>
> Neither.  You should have an editor that supports search-and-replace via
> regular expressions, and use that.

Not all do.  And, using RE's isn't a panacea -- see below.

When I'm working under Inferno, I can either live with Acme's
notion of "what a programmer needs".  Or, access the file
in question from *outside* Inferno (assuming I am working in
a hosted environment), manipulate it with a generic tool
under the host OS, write it back to disk and *then* access the
resulting file from within Inferno.

This is true of lots of applications that maintain their documents
in some sort of "coded" ASCII.  The "native" tools are often only
designed with limited "text manipulation" capabilities.  If you
want to do something clever, you are forced to:
- understand the encoding being used
- use or develop an external tool to massage the file as desired

For example, I defined most of my gestures using Photoshop.  Very
easy to create complex Bezier curves and tweek them to form a
consistent representation -- that you can visually evaluate.

But, you have very limited precision!  E.g., "draw" a 'C' and a 'G'
and, ideally, the (obvious) shared portions of each figure (gesture)
should be identical.  Yet, you can't do this with the tools available
*in* Photoshop.  You simply can't position the mouse that accurately.

OTOH, Photoshop creates an ASCII representation of the document
containing those "drawings".  So, it's a relatively simple matter
to massage that ASCII text (in an editor or with a "tool") to
ensure the common portions of the two figures are *identical*.
Then, verify this by reexamining the document in Photoshop.

And, once these have been visually verified, the same ASCII document
provides the data that will reside in the source code to process
those gestures.

Similarly, I "proof" AutoCAD documents (esp templates) in "DXF
format" (department of redundancy department).  This lets me
verify that certain intended invariants do, in fact, exist in
the document/model which otherwise would have been tedious to
examine using the "conventional" user interface.

The example I was alluding to in my previous post came from a
lengthy document that I had prepared some time ago (10MB of
"text").  Much easier to write a piece of code to walk through
it and mechanically rewrite the portions of the files that
needed modification than to *hope* I came up with the right
RE to fix it all in one shot  ("Ooops!  Minor error, there.
Do I have a backup that I can try that on, again?")

> E.g., and just because this
> particular editor hasn't been mentioned yet: in plain old vi, that would be
>
> :1,$s/<Figure \([^:]*\): continued on Page \([^)]\)>/<Illustration \1:
> <italic>(see page \2)<\italic>>/g
>
> (all in one line, not really tested)

And *that* is the problem ^^^^^^^^^^^^!  Unless you want to invest
lots of time learning to be an RE guru (and then complaining when
some tool doesn't support them!), you're never quite sure you've
got it right when you hit ENTER.

Write a piece of code to perform the same sort of thing and you
can easily (i.e., with a high degree of success) change a stub
that emits "found <foo> at file offset <x>; replacing with <bar>"
(i.e., used to let you preview the actions that the code will
ultimately take) with one that writes <bar> directly to the desired
output file (without fear of overwriting the original input!).

So, when you view that document in it's *intended* application,
you don't have to manually proofread hundreds of pages to discover
instances of:
     Illustratin XX <
caused by writing "<<italic>" instead of "<italic>" -- or, failed
to double the '>' on the end (i.e., akin to mismatched parens), etc.
Then, find yourself trying to come up with an RE that will find those
superfluous delimiters and fix them, etc.

And, there are problems that just don't lend themselves to an RE
sort of solution (e.g., transposing a matrix is easy to do with
keystroke macros or "a piece of code" -- considerably harder
"out of the gate" with a set of RE's!)

>> I find myself often hammering away on "up, left" (or down, etc.)
>> with my right hand while pecking at some other key with my left.
>> E.g., "$ up left" to insert a bunch of '$' in front a column of
>> monetary figures, etc.
>
> And you really shouldn't be.  Any programmer's editor really worth
> having has some sort of "rectangle fill" feature.  E.g. in Notepad++,
> you would just <Alt>-mark the column (i.e. drag the mouse while holding
> <Alt>, or move the cursor from one end to the other while holding
> Alt+Shift), then type a single $.  Done.  For more complicated cases, it
> can even fill in a sequence of numbers

Do you *only* deal with "programmer's editors"?  E.g., when I type
code fragments into a FrameMaker document (to formally document
something that I've created), *where* the cursor ends up if I type
<down_arrow> depends on my position in the current line and
the "font" used on that line and the line that follows.  The
idea of a "rectangular fill/copy/delete" simply doesn't apply
(note that this isn't just the proportional/fixed width font
issue but also the *sizes* of the typefaces comes into play!)

What's the keystroke sequence to cut/paste/fill a rectangular region
while composing in Thunderbird?  (or, do you never share code
fragments with colleagues electronically)

Should I keep Emacs open in a second window, type whatever "code"
I want in that window (using the tools emacs makes available to
me) and then *paste* it into whatever application I happen to
be *actively* working in at the time?

Over the years, I've found that the more "features" you rely on,
the more you *need* those features in your normal workflow.

E.g., imagine how you would work if you could only do one or two
builds a day (because the toolchain was slow or some equipment
needed to do it was a scarce resource).  I have colleagues who
have become so accustomed to quick edit/compile/debug cycles
that they don't even NOTICE "foo = bar / 0.0;" but wait, instead,
for the compiler to *tell* them about it!  Then, correct *just*
that problem and wait for the compiler to tell them what else
*might* be wrong...

> In Emacs one would drop the mark (Ctrl-Space), move to the other end,
> then Ctrl-x r t $ <Ret>.

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#13265

On 31.08.2013 00:00, Don Y wrote:
> On 8/30/2013 4:22 AM, Hans-Bernhard Bröker wrote:

>> On 30.08.2013 03:02, Don Y wrote:

>>> Yes.  As I said, I tend to just rely on using existing mechanisms
>>> instead of having to "think" about how to approach it.  E.g., should
>>> I write a piece of code to go through a file and substitute references
>>> of
>>>       <Figure XX: (continued on Page YY)>
>>> with
>>>       <Illustration XX: <italic>(see page YY)<\italic>>
>>> or, should I do this with a keystroke macro inside a text editor?
>>
>> Neither.  You should have an editor that supports search-and-replace via
>> regular expressions, and use that.

> Not all do.  And, using RE's isn't a panacea -- see below.

It very nearly is ... and it's pretty much guaranteed to be faster than 
even you can write a filter program to do exactly the same job.  If only 
because it's fewer key presses end-to-end.

> When I'm working under Inferno, I can either live with Acme's
> notion of "what a programmer needs".  Or, access the file
> in question from *outside* Inferno (assuming I am working in
> a hosted environment), manipulate it with a generic tool
> under the host OS, write it back to disk and *then* access the
> resulting file from within Inferno.

Looks like you haven't had enough exposure to Emacs ;-) Emacs will 
happily edit files at the remote end of just about any type of remote 
file transfer connection.

> This is true of lots of applications that maintain their documents
> in some sort of "coded" ASCII.  The "native" tools are often only
> designed with limited "text manipulation" capabilities.

Thus the notion of a programmer's editor, which just so happens to be 
the actual topic of this thread.  That's exactly the one tool you use in 
all those cases where simple editors (including those found inside other 
programs) just don't cut it.

And the reason it's called a programmer's editor these days is that most 
other users have almost forgotten what a text file even is, to the point 
that you have to start C textbooks with a full-page warning message 
that, no, you're not supposed to use MS Word to edit source code.

> OTOH, Photoshop creates an ASCII representation of the document
> containing those "drawings".  So, it's a relatively simple matter
> to massage that ASCII text (in an editor or with a "tool") to
> ensure the common portions of the two figures are *identical*.

Or, for crying out loud, just copy the common portion before you make 
two separate versions.

> Much easier to write a piece of code to walk through
> it and mechanically rewrite the portions of the files that
> needed modification than to *hope* I came up with the right
> RE to fix it all in one shot  ("Ooops!  Minor error, there.
> Do I have a backup that I can try that on, again?")

Sorry, but I'll have to call BS on that one.

>> :1,$s/<Figure \([^:]*\): continued on Page \([^)]\)>/<Illustration \1:
>> <italic>(see page \2)<\italic>>/g

>> (all in one line, not really tested)

> And *that* is the problem ^^^^^^^^^^^^!  Unless you want to invest
> lots of time learning to be an RE guru (and then complaining when
> some tool doesn't support them!), you're never quite sure you've
> got it right when you hit ENTER.

And your "piece of code to walk through ...", which is probably an order 
of magnitude longer than the RE, never has oopses.  Sure.  Oh, and if 
you're so worried about the editor corrupting the original, you can 
always do it outside. 'sed' is wonderful for such jobs.

Usable editors have undo, and better ones have interactive RE-replace 
that lets you watch the change made step by step.  And a history of the 
RE-strings you tried before.  And parenthesis highlighting of the RE 
while you type it.

> Do you *only* deal with "programmer's editors"?

No.  But if an editing job gets hairy, at some point it simply doesn't 
make sense any more to fight yet another inferior editor's peculiarities.

> What's the keystroke sequence to cut/paste/fill a rectangular region
> while composing in Thunderbird?

I don't know (yet), because that hasn't come up often enough to bother 
looking it up.  If that ever really matters, I'll probably just move the 
editing job to the proper tool instead.

So I don't follow the Unix principle of "One task <==> One tool" really 
strictly, but I'll return to it eventually.  In the case at hand, that 
translates into: _one_ full-blown text editor is, ultimately, all you 
need.  If only because it's a waste of brain capacity to memorize a 
dozen editors' key combinations and specialties.

> (or, do you never share code fragments with colleagues
> electronically)

Happens often enough. But if that's going to be worth it, that code has 
to be in the real editor, too, either before or after the transmission. 
  So it's just a question of making the sequence edit-copy-paste-send 
instead of copy-paste-edit-send-copy-paste.

> Should I keep Emacs open in a second window, type whatever "code"
> I want in that window (using the tools emacs makes available to
> me) and then *paste* it into whatever application I happen to
> be *actively* working in at the time?

If the editor in whatever application doesn't hack it, that's one 
option.  Another is to get whatever application to use emacs-client as 
its editor.

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