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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #10572 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-11-24 17:41 +0100 |
| Last post | 2012-11-26 00:08 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 153 — 47 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.arch.embedded
Getting started with AVR and C Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no> - 2012-11-24 17:41 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2012-11-24 09:55 -0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 10:39 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-11-24 18:03 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-10 13:21 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-12-10 18:33 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rene <a@b.c> - 2012-12-11 12:34 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-24 12:44 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:12 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-24 11:28 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-24 11:42 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2012-11-25 07:01 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-25 20:14 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 03:18 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-25 04:18 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-11-24 17:09 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-24 22:12 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Dave Nadler <drn@nadler.com> - 2012-11-24 21:01 -0800
statement / expression contexts in C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 12:54 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-11-28 13:37 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-28 14:49 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2012-11-28 17:53 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 18:05 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 12:56 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-28 21:45 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 15:55 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-11-29 01:35 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 01:47 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:24 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 01:18 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 20:07 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:23 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 11:01 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 19:19 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 14:32 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 11:44 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 21:23 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:15 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 09:26 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 13:22 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C me@linnix.info-for.us - 2012-11-30 14:10 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:16 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-11-30 17:36 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-30 15:18 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 10:08 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 00:45 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ed Beroset <beroset@mindspring.com> - 2012-12-01 08:00 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 13:22 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-01 17:33 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-01 17:43 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-02 14:13 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-04 20:34 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-04 18:25 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 07:55 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:11 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-05 07:52 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-05 11:02 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 21:28 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:21 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:05 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2012-12-05 23:22 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2012-12-06 00:00 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 12:17 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-05 23:10 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-06 07:15 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 21:52 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2012-12-06 20:59 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-06 12:38 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 20:39 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 22:31 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2012-12-05 16:32 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-05 17:04 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-12-05 22:01 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-12-06 14:05 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-06 10:28 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 16:58 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> - 2012-12-06 07:34 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2012-12-06 10:55 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rich Webb <bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> - 2012-12-06 11:11 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rocky <RobertGush@gmail.com> - 2012-12-06 21:38 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2012-12-07 03:49 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 02:58 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-01 17:28 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-01 11:55 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:17 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 12:36 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2012-11-29 16:22 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 18:36 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2012-12-11 10:53 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-11 14:53 +0000
Unicode Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com> - 2012-12-14 23:25 +0700
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 14:30 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 12:24 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-15 18:02 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-15 15:45 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2012-12-16 22:55 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-12-16 23:20 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-17 12:27 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 11:17 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-12-17 14:07 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2012-12-16 03:28 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-12-16 10:40 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 02:31 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 03:36 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 03:55 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Christopher Head <chead@is.invalid> - 2012-11-28 23:24 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 09:37 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:31 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C David Brown <david@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> - 2012-11-29 13:44 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-11-29 13:22 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:32 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:28 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 13:20 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:07 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 09:17 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C pete <pfiland@mindspring.com> - 2012-11-29 18:25 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 22:46 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C lawrence.jones@siemens.com - 2012-11-30 11:47 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-11-29 11:38 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 15:21 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-28 22:26 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 17:32 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 19:02 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 18:29 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:39 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.please> - 2012-11-29 00:59 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 07:57 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-29 13:02 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:19 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-29 12:03 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-11-29 11:39 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-29 08:04 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:17 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:19 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 23:44 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-11-28 13:15 -0500
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Arlet Ottens <usenet+5@c-scape.nl> - 2012-11-28 19:17 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2012-11-28 19:30 -0600
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 15:29 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-29 16:36 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C upsidedown@downunder.com - 2012-11-29 22:40 +0200
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 13:55 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 22:06 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2012-11-29 14:22 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-29 21:59 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2012-11-30 08:29 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2012-11-25 05:41 -0800
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Rosario1903 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-27 10:21 +0100
Re: Getting started with AVR and C dbr@kbrx.com - 2012-11-24 21:49 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C MK <mk@nospam.co.uk> - 2012-11-25 12:24 +0000
Re: Getting started with AVR and C Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> - 2012-11-26 00:08 +0000
Page 4 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 23:22 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <k9odvk$nbi$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #10693 |
On 5.12.12 11:05 , upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:21:17 -0800, Jon Kirwan > <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>> Before optical readers, there were fast capacitive readers with paper >>> speeds of several meters per second, thus several kilobytes/s, filling >>> the core memory with operating system and program in tens of seconds. >>> >>> You could get deep nasty wounds, if you accidently touched the fast >>> moving paper tape. Thus, it was a good idea to use gloves, when >>> operating the paper tape reader. >> >> Now there's a thought. I never got close enough to the fast >> ones, except rarely. And I didn't know how they operated. But >> I did, at the time, understand how to make an optical one >> work and made my own. (It is long gone, now.) I hadn't even >> considered a capacitive approach. >> >> Could you elaborate a bit on this?? I'm interested in the >> approach -- particularly the sensor/transducer part of it and >> perhaps the 1st stage concerns (the rest of the amplification >> and electronics I think I can work out.) > > I have never seen any schematics for these beasts, but they had 8 (or > more likely also a 9th for the feed hole) trimmer capacitors very > close to the read head. > > My guess is that some kind of bridge construction was used, with the > actual sensor and the trimmer capacitor at opposite side of a bridge > circuit. I used a Facit reader (500 / 1000 characters/s) in late 1960's. It was nearly the very best available. There was a row of pins flush with the tape transport plane, 8 larger for data and the ninth smaller for feed holes, which were between 3th and 4th data holes. There was a common electrode on top of the tape (in the tape path cover). The cover electrode was fed with a 500 kHz signal, and the pins were connected to the opposite phase of the feed with trimmer capacitors, so there was a bunch of 9 capacitance bridges. The bridges were adjusted to balance with a fully-punched piece of tape in place. For feeding the tape, there was a capstan rotating at the reader speed, and in the cover there was a bearing for pushing the tape against the capstan. The bearing was pulled by a armature lever and a electromagnet when there was a need to feed. For quick stopping, there was a similar lever before the reading position, without the bearing and capstan. This mechanism allowed the sub-millisecond timing needed for the speed. The ultimate tape reader was built by Danish Regnecentralen. It solved the question of very abrupt motion of the paper tape and reels needed for top speed. There were servo-controlled reels for input and output tape, and the feed was performed with a servo-controlled capstan. The whole mechanism resembled that of the 1/2 inch magnetic tape drives. Also, there was a FIFO buffer in the electronics, and its filling level was used to control the servos. The top speed was 2000 characters / s. -- Tauno Voipio
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| From | Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 00:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ai9ugdFg0b2U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #10695 |
On 12-12-05 23:22 , Tauno Voipio wrote:
> The ultimate tape reader was built by Danish Regnecentralen.
> It solved the question of very abrupt motion of the paper
> tape and reels needed for top speed. There were servo-controlled
> reels for input and output tape, and the feed was performed
> with a servo-controlled capstan. The whole mechanism resembled
> that of the 1/2 inch magnetic tape drives. Also, there was a
> FIFO buffer in the electronics, and its filling level was used
> to control the servos. The top speed was 2000 characters / s.
The WW II code-breaking computer Colossus read its paper tape at 5000
characters per second. They had run with up to 9700 characters per
second before the tape broke. But the Colossus tape was a fixed loop,
endlessly repeating, not a long tape on a reel. And the speed was
constant, not start-and-stop, so high speed was easier.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
--
Niklas Holsti
Tidorum Ltd
niklas holsti tidorum fi
. @ .
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 12:17 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <tjavb8d1ukihta9c6n9hs7ahhmecnc23c8@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10686 |
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 07:52:39 -0800, Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: >In article <vq9tb8p68ukkf8geefabuvv5di8k78hkbg@4ax.com>, >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... >> >> On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 20:34:12 -0500, Walter Banks >> <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote: >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> > >> >> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 17:33:23 -0800, Mark Borgerson >> >> <mborgerson@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> >In article <mpskb8pu8guc6detar3j0j0vajr44fobko@4ax.com>, >> >> >jonk@infinitefactors.org says... >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:00:50 -0500, Ed Beroset >> >> >> <beroset@mindspring.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:08:42 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> These were completely mechanical (including serial to parallel and >> >> >> >>> parallel to serial conversion) and the only semiconductors were the >> >> >> >>> power supply rectifier diodes and the transistor in the 20 mA constant >> >> >> >>> current supply :-). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yup. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Damn. Now I need to see if anyone has one to sell. Crap. My >> >> >> >> wife is going to hate it. Luckily, I've got over 7000 sq ft >> >> >> >> of space here, so I should be able to find some corner for >> >> >> >> it. If I can find one. Would be fun to clean one up and get >> >> >> >> it working, if the problems weren't too fundamental after all >> >> >> >> these years. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Up until very recently (this summer) I had quite a bit of old computer >> >> >> >stuff. I have sold or given away much of it now, which helps assure >> >> >> >domestic tranquility. The 9-track tape drives were about as big as a >> >> >> >refrigerator, but heavier... Still have an ADM-3A terminal and other >> >> >> >70s era computing ephemera, but I let the most bulky stuff go, so I >> >> >> >still have the tape drive manuals and the PDP-8 manuals but not the >> >> >> >devices. >> >> >> >> >> >> You still have your ADM-3A!!?! Wow. I built one of my own >> >> >> from the kit that Lear Siegler offered, around the time I >> >> >> also built my Altair 8800 from kit. (I was WAY TOO POOR to >> >> >> just go buy assembled stuff at the time.) It was so wonderful >> >> >> to have that ADM-3A. I don't even know where it went, now. >> >> >> >> >> >> Now that brings back pleasant memories. I used that thing >> >> >> like crazy for years. It saved my life when writing programs >> >> >> under CP/M, for example. Or using Microsoft's paper tape >> >> >> BASIC. (Hmm... I bet I still have a Persei drive maybe and >> >> >> maybe also some old 8" floppies with Microsoft's BASIC on >> >> >> them.....) >> >> >> >> >> >> >Someone should write a VR TTY simulator that includes realistic sound. >> >> >> >Here's a video clip of a model 28 in action: >> >> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ng6v9UMw8 >> >> >> >> >> >> hehe. The mechanisms aren't as impressive as the 35. But it's >> >> >> nice to see that. I never used or saw a 28, though. Thanks! >> >> >> >> >> >> I still have my old DECtapes in plastic cases around here -- >> >> >> no tape drive for them, though. So there they sit. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm going to build another tape reader and tape punch, >> >> >> though. The reader is easy. It's the punch dies for the tape >> >> >> punch that will set me back, time wise. I think to think >> >> >> about the design some more. But I want to design, make, and >> >> >> build that project. My son would benefit from it and I'd >> >> >> enjoy it. >> >> >> >> >> >Mechanical dies???? A couple hundred Watts of CO2 laser, >> >> >a rotating drum mirror, and an AVR for timing should >> >> >suffice! ;-) (Bonus prize---no chad---hanging or otherwise) >> >> >> >> Hmm. Although I lose out on the memory of the sound of it, >> >> there is an advantage to your suggestion. I could also then >> >> use it to laser cut plywood and other slabs of wood, do art >> >> work, and so on. Wonder if tilting the rotating mirror would >> >> then let me do scan lines without having to move a heavy >> >> target on a table. >> >> >> >> Nah. The paper is oiled well. Probably would catch fire on >> >> me. And if it didn't, the hole rim would be darkened and I'm >> >> not sure what that does to some of the readers. Wouldn't feel >> >> right, either. >> >> >> >> I think drill rod is the right way to go, don't you? :) >> > >> >I think it is better to use Mark's 21st century solution :) >> >With that you should be able to engineer a Tbyte life >> >instead a 100K byte life for a mechanical punch that would >> >cost more to implement :) Probably 100-1000 times as >> >fast. >> >> Hehe. I'm tempted. A little scary setting up a few hundred >> watts of 10 micron IR beam, though. (or is it 15 micron?) >> Anyway, don't these things COST A LOT? (Like thousands of >> dollars for the tubes?) >> >> Here's a 20W tube: >> http://www.amazing1.com/burning-lasers.htm >> >> And that by itself is $400. >> >> Here's another, more expensive one: >> >> http://www.lightobject.com/High-Quality-Reci-80W90W-CO2-Sealed-Laser-Tube10000Hrs-P118.aspx >> >> I've no idea how long these tubes last. Their warranties >> appear to be no more than 10 months, though. So I'm betting >> on replacement once per year or more often, ignorant as I am >> of these beasts. >> >> Do you have any specific recommendations about how to keep >> the costs down, the power adequate, and the precision >> appropriate for the task of cutting precision holes in thick, >> oiled paper? >> >> I'm still thinking drill rod, myself. It's not as though I'm >> going to be cutting out Tbytes on paper tape. I think the >> rolls are only from one supplier: >> >> http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html >> >> With shipping, it's $415.51 for (28) 1000' rolls. So 28000' >> or 3.36 megabyte for only $415.51. A terrabyte would cost me >> merely $123,663,690.00. That, plus the CO2 laser and >> operating costs. >> >> ... would put me only slightly over budget! >> >> You wouldn't happen to have some lucrative projects around, >> would you, where I could earn enough for this hobby? >> >> >On another group recently someone calculated the >> >volume and read times for a TByte on cards >> >> ;) >> >> >The other contest would be to design and implement >> >a reliable Rube Goldberg. My entry is Roman 5 flag >> >signaling to remote output on cuneiform tablet >> >engraving and baking in Baghdad. >> >> Hehe. >> >> I think I'll just get serious about drill rods and have >> somewhat more modest fun. I can't afford these hobbies of >> yours!! A terrabyte done on paper tape! Cripes. >> >If it's the paper tape that is the key, not the method >of storing data, perhaps a paradigm shift is in order. > >1. you could lower the laser power to the point where >you just char the paper a bit and use an optical reader. > >2. Use an ink-jet print head to print the 'holes' >and an optical sensor to read the tape. Yeah, but the reader I'm building uses a linear lamp overhead and a glass stirring rod to focus it onto the holes, with sensor LEDs underneath. I guess I could consider working on things so that it works okay with either holes or "inked" dots. Might not be too hard to do. Will think on it. But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from now and say "hi," eh? >IIRC, fast optical readers showed up near the end of >the paper tape era. I think there were even plans >for do-it-yourself readers in the magazines of the >time. If I get time, I'll take a look in some of >my magazines from the era. (I saved the ones that >printed my articles.) I built my own optical reader in the late 1970's. Hand pulled, though. I used the sprocket holes to create a trigger pulse to sample the other holes, so it didn't matter that much how fast I pulled. Mostly, I just didn't want the tear the papertape. (I could not afford to buy stuff, then. Raised very poor, lived in homes without walls, had to work the fields to survive as a kid. So I wasn't like young adults born in middle class families who could just go out and buy a reader or a punch or an assembled computer, etc. I had to make almost every finished product I got to own. This included the ADM-3A that someone else mentioned -- I could only barely manage the kit cost.) Jon
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 23:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <7udvb81iai6qm0o6c4vrgpgve07b6pupnq@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10691 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >now and say "hi," eh? I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made from some more durable material would be a good way to send such messages.
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <rolvb8t5cfumbo5b2fj4rirauhorb8i1up@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10694 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan ><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>now and say "hi," eh? > >I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >messages. Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) Jon
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| From | upsidedown@downunder.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 07:15 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <tv90c8htdcmba2akfrruv73otbp7vvv1n0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10698 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:25:11 -0800, Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >wrote: > >>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>>But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>>Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>>Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>>now and say "hi," eh? >> >>I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >>messages. > >Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. > >Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls >of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) > >Jon Unfortunately books printed on modern papers will deteriorate in a century or two due to the pH of current papers. Why would the paper tape last any longer ? Unless modern books are scanned and the scanned copies are copied to modern media every 10 years (how many paper tape and 1/2 inch mag tape readers are operational these days, what is the true life expectance for a burned CD), most current literature is lost in a century.
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 21:52 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <0tb0c8hqt78ub2qapk427hpc31v2rkq3gd@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10701 |
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 07:15:34 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote: >On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:25:11 -0800, Jon Kirwan ><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > >>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >>wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >>><jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>> >>>>But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>>>Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>>>Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>>>now and say "hi," eh? >>> >>>I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >>>messages. >> >>Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. >> >>Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls >>of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) >> >>Jon > >Unfortunately books printed on modern papers will deteriorate in a >century or two due to the pH of current papers. Why would the paper >tape last any longer ? I have a lot of the old papertapes around here. They are almost 50 years old, now. And in mint (perfect) shape. I'm looking at one right now. There is NO QUESTION in my mind that they will last many, many more groups of 50 years to come. (And I'm not counting the mylar.) These tapes are 4 mils thick. Almost cardstock. And oiled. Not fanfold, but coiled, and in their plastic holders. Otherwise, they were kept in attics, garages, sheds, and so on. Quite a range of humidities and temperatures. Looks flawless to the eye. Other than that, I've no idea. But if I cared about 1000 years from now, I would NOT use a DVD or a CD unless there were a process to copy them over and over. I'd use paper (or stone.) >Unless modern books are scanned and the scanned copies are copied to >modern media every 10 years (how many paper tape and 1/2 inch mag tape >readers are operational these days, what is the true life expectance >for a burned CD), most current literature is lost in a century. Yup. Libraries around the world have been studying long term storage issues. No DVD, even kept in optimal situations, appears certain to last more than 100 years or so according to two different studies I read a couple of years back. Anyway, it's all kind of interesting in an odd way. Jon
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| From | Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 20:59 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <50c0f91e$0$2033$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #10698 |
Le 06/12/2012 00:25, Jon Kirwan a écrit : > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com > wrote: > >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> >>> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>> now and say "hi," eh? >> >> I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >> messages. > > Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. > > Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls > of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) > Nothing lasts longer than carved stone, prepare your chisel!
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 12:38 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <iov1c8lbj41579u07j5d5g4qu6u2auqc1o@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10709 |
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:59:23 +0100, Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> wrote: >Le 06/12/2012 00:25, Jon Kirwan a écrit : >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 23:10:14 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com >> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 12:17:50 -0800, Jon Kirwan >>> <jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >>> >>>> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >>>> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >>>> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >>>> now and say "hi," eh? >>> >>> I guess a punched card (with a serial number in columns 73-80) made >>>from some more durable material would be a good way to send such >>> messages. >> >> Ah. The difference between ancient paged codices and scrolls. >> >> Hmm. Do I want future historians to handle codices or scrolls >> of mine? Must think on that problem. ;) >> >Nothing lasts longer than carved stone, prepare your chisel! Hmm. New 3D printer --- melts rock fed into a hopper and extrudes it.... might work. A few things may. Some very old fossils have been found. I don't know of any carved stone that has survived anywhere near that long. Of course, I don't think there have been the technical concepts for making carved stone for long enough to know, either. hehe. Still, it's an open question. Some fossils, I gather, (not many) have actually survived an overturning into heated situations near and perhaps through liquified magma. Rare, if I remember reading. But some minerals that substitute for bone may withstand higher heat than the surrounding rock. Hmm. Sapphire melts at over 2000C. Iridium at over 2400C. Both not entirely cheap, a sapphire boule cost me about $5000 last time I bought one. Iridium is very expensive (never bought any, though it is used to make the crucibles that are sometimes used to make sapphire.) But it might be usable in smaller quantities for communication over eons and tectonic effects. ;) Or, getting back to the 3D printer head, I just need to make the extruder out of sapphire or iridium -- most magma is lower temperature when liquid, I think. So technically doable that way, perhaps. Now there is a business opportunity if I ever saw one. :) Jon
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| From | George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 20:39 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <juh2c8dr0f8hobc24p8ti7gdcisl59e1tp@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10709 |
On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:59:23 +0100, Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> wrote: >Nothing lasts longer than carved stone, prepare your chisel! How about etched diamond?
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| From | Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 22:31 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50C162FF.60C0420@bytecraft.com> |
| In reply to | #10712 |
George Neuner wrote: > On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:59:23 +0100, Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> > wrote: > > >Nothing lasts longer than carved stone, prepare your chisel! > > How about etched diamond? Diamond burns but is hard enough :) w..
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| From | Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 16:32 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <k9oeh1$qvn$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #10691 |
Jon Kirwan wrote: > But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > now and say "hi," eh? The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have built something out of wood. Mel.
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 15:25 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <evlvb8luak72pb5uucsm55hsdn05gggq2a@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10696 |
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> wrote: >Jon Kirwan wrote: > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >> now and say "hi," eh? > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have >built something out of wood. > > Mel. Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on paper. Jon
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| From | dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 17:04 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #10699 |
On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > >> now and say "hi," eh? > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have > >built something out of wood. > > > Mel. > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on > paper. > > Jon Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than paper? Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
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| From | Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-05 22:01 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <5mc0c8t642tq9sh2g0gmb4ujnih160bkpp@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #10700 |
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 17:04:07 -0800 (PST), dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote: >On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson >> >> <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >> >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >> >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >> >> now and say "hi," eh? >> >> >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite >> >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a >> >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have >> >built something out of wood. >> >> > Mel. >> >> Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on >> paper. >> >> Jon > >Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > >Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than >paper? >Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using >things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will >store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... >Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > >Dimiter Doesn't flex. I've used the paper tapes I have a lot. They look mint, after a decade of occasional use and three more decades of simple storage. Foil may certainly serve some service in long term storage. But we already have LONG experience with paper, what works, what doesn't, and what kinds can actually survive a millennia because we actually still have surviving bits here and there despite many attempts to destroy (church seeking to destroy heretical materials) or repurpose the paper (monks reusing old documents to write new ones by scraping them first.) I would be worried about foils, more so that I would about paper. But to be honest, this isn't my field and I don't really know one way or another except what I have for personal experiences with using paper tape. Seems remarkable to me. I don't want to even think about the problems using foil. In any case, that's not fun for me. This is about a hobby idea, not solving the world's millennia long storage of data problems. Others are better at such problems than I am. I just like paper tape. Good stuff. Jon
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| From | Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.email@totally.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 14:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA1218F59DE53E0xDEADBEEF@88.198.244.100> |
| In reply to | #10700 |
dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> wrote in news:0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com: > On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson >> >> <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: >> >Jon Kirwan wrote: >> >> >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. >> >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. >> >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from >> >> now and say "hi," eh? >> >> >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my >> >fa > vorite >> >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right >> >here i > s a >> >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must >> >have built something out of wood. >> >> > Mel. >> >> Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on >> paper. >> >> Jon > > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > paper? > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > Dimiter > Unfortunately the only durable metal foils are of precious metals and your epic is likely to be recycled for jewlery or coinage long before the next civilisation develops an interest in archeology. I'd look at PTFE impregnated glassfibre cloth tape. <http://www.psadhesives.com/pdfs/ptfe-glass-cloth-tapes.pdf> have some non-adhesive ones on up to 30 meter rolls. To print on it you would need a custom ink with platinum black pigment in a PTFE binder, which would be thermally fused into the surface. <http://www.standardtechnical.com/page39a.html> -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL
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| From | dp <dp@tgi-sci.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 10:28 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <0c07ab50-9ad1-4e3b-915f-0b5a245de80d@p15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #10704 |
On Dec 6, 4:05 pm, Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.em...@totally.invalid> wrote: > dp <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote innews: > .... > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > > paper? > > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > > Dimiter > > Unfortunately the only durable metal foils are of precious metals and > your epic is likely to be recycled for jewlery or coinage long before the > next civilisation develops an interest in archeology. Hmmm, true of course. Gold foil will last but we will have to do better with the pyramids to store it in than the Egyptians did, otherwise the morlocks will always get only fragments and thus CRC errors - at best. > I'd look at PTFE impregnated glassfibre cloth tape. > <http://www.psadhesives.com/pdfs/ptfe-glass-cloth-tapes.pdf> > have some non-adhesive ones on up to 30 meter rolls. Well Teflon should be long lived indeed but we can only extrapolate on its longevity, too new. I wonder if there are people who really want to do something in the data longevity field who have already made CDs with some highly durable plastic (or plain glass?), gold plated (there we go, pyramids again). Likely so, come to think of it. > To print on it you would need a custom ink with platinum black pigment in > a PTFE binder, which would be thermally fused into the surface. > <http://www.standardtechnical.com/page39a.html> Yes, that would make the pyramids unnecessary. But then who knows, those future beasts may use the things as jewelry or toilet paper, we should never underestimate their inventiveness. Walters idea to beam the data into space and let those who capture it worry about it is probably best, long-term speaking. I wonder whether ants are interested in parsecs the way we seem to be interested in millenia, universe age etc. :D . Dimiter ------------------------------------------------------ Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments http://www.tgi-sci.com ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
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| From | Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 16:58 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2b2adf2ad6dc8a7798999d@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #10708 |
In article <0c07ab50-9ad1-4e3b-915f- 0b5a245de80d@p15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, dp@tgi-sci.com says... > > On Dec 6, 4:05 pm, Ian Malcolm <See.My.Sig.for.em...@totally.invalid> > wrote: > > dp <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote innews: > > .... > > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > > > paper? > > > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > > > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > > > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > > > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > > > > Dimiter > > > > Unfortunately the only durable metal foils are of precious metals and > > your epic is likely to be recycled for jewlery or coinage long before the > > next civilisation develops an interest in archeology. > > Hmmm, true of course. Gold foil will last but we will have to do > better with the pyramids to store it in than the Egyptians did, > otherwise the morlocks will always get only fragments and thus CRC > errors - at best. > > > I'd look at PTFE impregnated glassfibre cloth tape. > > <http://www.psadhesives.com/pdfs/ptfe-glass-cloth-tapes.pdf> > > have some non-adhesive ones on up to 30 meter rolls. > > Well Teflon should be long lived indeed but we can only > extrapolate on its longevity, too new. > I wonder if there are people who really want to do something in the > data longevity field who have already made CDs with some highly > durable plastic (or plain glass?), gold plated (there we go, > pyramids again). > Likely so, come to think of it. Already been done. Check out the Voyager Golden Record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record > > > To print on it you would need a custom ink with platinum black pigment in > > a PTFE binder, which would be thermally fused into the surface. > > <http://www.standardtechnical.com/page39a.html> > > Yes, that would make the pyramids unnecessary. But then who knows, > those future beasts may use the things as jewelry or toilet paper, > we should never underestimate their inventiveness. > > Walters idea to beam the data into space and let those who capture > it worry about it is probably best, long-term speaking. > > I wonder whether ants are interested in parsecs the way we seem > to be interested in millenia, universe age etc. :D . > > Dimiter > Mark Borgerson
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| From | Mark Borgerson <mborgerson@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 07:34 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.2b29cc28ecdd58b098999b@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #10700 |
In article <0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@ 8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, dp@tgi-sci.com says... > > On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson > > > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > > >> now and say "hi," eh? > > > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite > > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a > > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have > > >built something out of wood. > > > > > Mel. > > > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on > > paper. > > > > Jon > > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > paper? > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. Just keep that foil away from any acidic or basic solutions! If you want real archival storage, go back to the basics. Have your solenoids indent some good quality clay. Glaze and fire. You could also get colored patterns for optical sensing by filling the indentations with colored glaze before firing. A well-fired ceramic will outlast your paper tape---especially if you don't live in a desert area. To make sure it gets passed on from generation to generation, fashion your codex in the shape of a number of beer coasters! Nothing like continued utility to make sure something gets passed on to the kids! If you want to pass on your spoken word, how about an Edison phonograph with fired ceramic cylinders instead of wax? Mark Borgerson
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| From | Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-12-06 10:55 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <50C0BFE7.9AEC391B@bytecraft.com> |
| In reply to | #10705 |
Mark Borgerson wrote: > In article <0259afc9-9d19-43c8-977f-ebfabe49cec6@ > 8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>, dp@tgi-sci.com says... > > > > On Dec 6, 1:25 am, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 16:32:15 -0500, Mel Wilson > > > > > > <mwil...@the-wire.com> wrote: > > > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > > > > > >> But I lose the ability to have good storage for millennia. > > > >> Holes in papertape will easily last a millenia, and more. > > > >> Maybe I want to communicate with neo-humans 10,000 years from > > > >> now and say "hi," eh? > > > > > > >The holes will probably outlast the tape. "Time Team" is one of my favorite > > > >shows, and they're continually trying to deduce, since dirt right here is a > > > >slightly different color from the dirt over there, that Saxons must have > > > >built something out of wood. > > > > > > > Mel. > > > > > > Cool, yet another reason for holes rather than ink spots on > > > paper. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Hmmm, joining the party a bit late but... > > > > Is aluminum foil (I think plain kitchen foil) not longer lived than > > paper? > > Punching it at a 10 holes per mm (fairly dense but surely doable using > > things we have at hand like lasers, PLL-ed rotating mirrors etc.) will > > store >100 megabytes on an A4 sheet... > > Hopefully the morlocks will be smart enough to read that though. > > Just keep that foil away from any acidic or basic solutions! > > If you want real archival storage, go back to the basics. Have > your solenoids indent some good quality clay. Glaze and fire. > You could also get colored patterns for optical sensing by > filling the indentations with colored glaze before firing. > > A well-fired ceramic will outlast your paper tape---especially > if you don't live in a desert area. To make sure it > gets passed on from generation to generation, fashion your > codex in the shape of a number of beer coasters! Nothing > like continued utility to make sure something gets passed > on to the kids! > > If you want to pass on your spoken word, how about an > Edison phonograph with fired ceramic cylinders instead > of wax? > For real duration broadcast your data into space. Observatories are still looking at echoes of the big bang back 12Billion or so years, much long than any material will last unchanged. Recovery may require the technology of tomorrow. w..
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