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3D printers for small run boards

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  3D printers for small run boards Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-08-31 07:38 -0400
    Re: 3D printers for small run boards bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-08-31 13:19 -0500
      Re: 3D printers for small run boards Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-09-01 04:46 -0400
        Re: 3D printers for small run boards bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-09-01 11:26 -0500
          Re: 3D printers for small run boards Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-09-04 16:39 +0100
            Re: 3D printers for small run boards bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> - 2013-09-04 14:06 -0500
    Re: 3D printers for small run boards Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2013-08-31 21:39 -0700
      Re: 3D printers for small run boards Jon Kirwan <jonk@infinitefactors.org> - 2013-08-31 21:41 -0700
      Re: 3D printers for small run boards Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2013-09-01 04:51 -0400

#13274 — 3D printers for small run boards

I have had a couple conversations in the last month about the future
of 3D printers.

One potential application that has come up is the ability to create
prototype (or small run ) circuit boards. The possibilities are lots
of layers, layers of varying thickness, cooling tubes and potential
when combined with a pick and place robot for embedded
components, processors.

Is anyone providing this type of printer yet within the price range
of small to medium sized companies?

w..

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#13281

On 08/31/2013 06:38 AM, Walter Banks wrote:
> I have had a couple conversations in the last month about the future
> of 3D printers.
>
> One potential application that has come up is the ability to create
> prototype (or small run ) circuit boards. The possibilities are lots
> of layers, layers of varying thickness, cooling tubes and potential
> when combined with a pick and place robot for embedded
> components, processors.
>
> Is anyone providing this type of printer yet within the price range
> of small to medium sized companies?
>
> w..
>

Are you thinking of depositing conductors and insulators, or just one of 
those?

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#13287

bbhack wrote:

> On 08/31/2013 06:38 AM, Walter Banks wrote:
> > I have had a couple conversations in the last month about the future
> > of 3D printers.
> >
> > One potential application that has come up is the ability to create
> > prototype (or small run ) circuit boards. The possibilities are lots
> > of layers, layers of varying thickness, cooling tubes and potential
> > when combined with a pick and place robot for embedded
> > components, processors.
> >
> > Is anyone providing this type of printer yet within the price range
> > of small to medium sized companies?
> >
> > w..
> >
>
> Are you thinking of depositing conductors and insulators, or just one of
> those?

I am just at this point seeing what is possible. Probably more to the point
getting an idea where this could go with equipment that a small company
could afford. For the sake of an argument what could be done with a
$100K capital cost.

w..

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#13289

On 09/01/2013 03:46 AM, Walter Banks wrote:
>>> > >Is anyone providing this type of printer yet within the price range
>>> > >of small to medium sized companies?
>>> > >
>>> > >w..
>>> > >
>> >
>> >Are you thinking of depositing conductors and insulators, or just one of
>> >those?
> I am just at this point seeing what is possible. Probably more to the point
> getting an idea where this could go with equipment that a small company
> could afford. For the sake of an argument what could be done with a
> $100K capital cost.
>
> w..
>
>

I'm not aware of any such product, but I've never looked. I work with 
inkjet, and here are some thoughts.

A pure deposition PCB (starting with nothing) is in the realm of 
possibility. The conductors would probably start as a slurry of low 
melting point metal, and then need to be welded in place with a hot 
laser. The insulators would probably be a UV curing polymer.

I don't know what the most conductive polymer that can be jetted is, but 
I imagine it's not going to work as a conductor.

A different approach might be dicing the foil on a clad board with a 
laser, then printing the insulating layers.

My guess is the commercial viability of such a machine is low, so this 
has a big DIY aspect to it. A small CNC laser etcher/cutter is in the 
$25K range. The better solution would use the same XYZ motion for all 
operations - cutting, printing, placing.

Obtaining the consumables might be the biggest challenge of all.

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#13310

bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> wrote:
> A different approach might be dicing the foil on a clad board with a 
> laser, then printing the insulating layers.
> 
> My guess is the commercial viability of such a machine is low, so this 
> has a big DIY aspect to it. A small CNC laser etcher/cutter is in the 
> $25K range. The better solution would use the same XYZ motion for all 
> operations - cutting, printing, placing.

You can laser cut the substrate with a cheap laser cutter (~$10-20K) but it
won't cut the foil (just reflects the laser energy).  SRBP may be better
than fibreglass (cutting glass sputters glass onto the lenses and causes
them to go cloudy, which is awkward to clean off).  Cutting a board with
foil backing tends to end up in a charred mess.  Laser cutters tend to have
a specialised XYZ mechanism because the laser itself is heavy and lives at
the bottom of the machine, and only mirrors are moved around.

You can also do CNC milling of a PCB, but this has constraints on feature
size and the milling bits wear out fast - you try to minimise the amount of
milling you need (ie most of the PCB remains copper-clad).  It does have the
benefit of also drilling the holes for you by just changing the bit.  It
also needs careful adjustment (particularly height adjustment) to get good
results.

What looks promising at the moment is laser-etching the photoresist surface
of a clad board and then wet-etching it (eg with etchant in a sponge, not a
chemical tank).

None of these address the issues about aligning multilayers, which I suppose
is one of the motivations for 3D printing.  But I suspect that can be solved
by computer vision in the CNC platform - pick and place machines already use
this.

So there are ways, but I'm not aware of any polished solutions in this area. 
In particular, when you buy one of these machines be prepared for it to be
supplied with terrible software and to have to reverse engineer it and write
your own.

Theo

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#13313

On 09/04/2013 10:39 AM, Theo Markettos wrote:
> bbhack <bbhack@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A different approach might be dicing the foil on a clad board with a
>> laser, then printing the insulating layers.
>>
>> My guess is the commercial viability of such a machine is low, so this
>> has a big DIY aspect to it. A small CNC laser etcher/cutter is in the
>> $25K range. The better solution would use the same XYZ motion for all
>> operations - cutting, printing, placing.
>
> You can laser cut the substrate with a cheap laser cutter (~$10-20K) but it
> won't cut the foil (just reflects the laser energy).  SRBP may be better
> than fibreglass (cutting glass sputters glass onto the lenses and causes
> them to go cloudy, which is awkward to clean off).  Cutting a board with
> foil backing tends to end up in a charred mess.  Laser cutters tend to have
> a specialised XYZ mechanism because the laser itself is heavy and lives at
> the bottom of the machine, and only mirrors are moved around.
>
> You can also do CNC milling of a PCB, but this has constraints on feature
> size and the milling bits wear out fast - you try to minimise the amount of
> milling you need (ie most of the PCB remains copper-clad).  It does have the
> benefit of also drilling the holes for you by just changing the bit.  It
> also needs careful adjustment (particularly height adjustment) to get good
> results.
>
> What looks promising at the moment is laser-etching the photoresist surface
> of a clad board and then wet-etching it (eg with etchant in a sponge, not a
> chemical tank).
>
> None of these address the issues about aligning multilayers, which I suppose
> is one of the motivations for 3D printing.  But I suspect that can be solved
> by computer vision in the CNC platform - pick and place machines already use
> this.
>
> So there are ways, but I'm not aware of any polished solutions in this area.
> In particular, when you buy one of these machines be prepared for it to be
> supplied with terrible software and to have to reverse engineer it and write
> your own.
>
> Theo
>

I forgot a promising approach. Print the conducting traces with an ink 
that can be plated onto electroless. Adhesion might be a problem, and 
it's a lot a work and not a one-and-done solution, but it has the 
benefit of possibly working.

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#13285

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 07:38:25 -0400, Walter Banks
<walter@bytecraft.com> wrote:

>I have had a couple conversations in the last month about the future
>of 3D printers.
>
>One potential application that has come up is the ability to create
>prototype (or small run ) circuit boards. The possibilities are lots
>of layers, layers of varying thickness, cooling tubes and potential
>when combined with a pick and place robot for embedded
>components, processors.
>
>Is anyone providing this type of printer yet within the price range
>of small to medium sized companies?
>
>w..

Hi, Walter. I have a 3D printer here and some conductive
plastic for it, as well (about 100 ohms per cm, if I recall.)
I usually print at 0.22mm layer thicknesses, but could go
.15mm or less perhaps. Or more. The nozzle is 0.4mm for
extrusion. But while I can easily do conductive layers like
this, you are talking 10k to 100k ohm ranges for anything
reasonable. So it's not really useful for anything but high
impedances. I've been playing a little with it for touch
sensors and the like. There probably is more conductive
plastic available. But I just don't have any right now and
honestly have no idea if much more conductive is even
possible in the system I have here.

Laying down conductive wire itself would also be possible and
that could be buried into the plastic. I'd probably want a
2nd head just for the wire itself and I'd need a way to snip
it. Could just be bare wires and those can be buried in hot
plastic, easily.

Placing parts? I honestly haven't seen a pick and place robot
running before, but it must be very precise so that's good.

Hmm. I wonder about using a thin layer of plastic on a copper
board to use as "resist." Hmm. I think I'm going to try that
out. I think it could work really well. That will be my next
test, I think.

Jon

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#13286

On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 21:39:39 -0700, Jon Kirwan
<jonk@infinitefactors.org> wrote:

>100 ohms per cm

Sorry... 100 ohms-cm. Took me a second to see the units
didn't work out right as I stated it earlier.

hehe.

Jon

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#13288

Jon Kirwan wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 07:38:25 -0400, Walter Banks
> <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote:
>
> >I have had a couple conversations in the last month about the future
> >of 3D printers.
> >
> >One potential application that has come up is the ability to create
> >prototype (or small run ) circuit boards. The possibilities are lots
> >of layers, layers of varying thickness, cooling tubes and potential
> >when combined with a pick and place robot for embedded
> >components, processors.
> >
> >Is anyone providing this type of printer yet within the price range
> >of small to medium sized companies?
> >
> >w..
>
> Hi, Walter. I have a 3D printer here and some conductive
> plastic for it, as well (about 100 ohms per cm, if I recall.)
> I usually print at 0.22mm layer thicknesses, but could go
> .15mm or less perhaps. Or more. The nozzle is 0.4mm for
> extrusion. But while I can easily do conductive layers like
> this, you are talking 10k to 100k ohm ranges for anything
> reasonable. So it's not really useful for anything but high
> impedances. I've been playing a little with it for touch
> sensors and the like. There probably is more conductive
> plastic available. But I just don't have any right now and
> honestly have no idea if much more conductive is even
> possible in the system I have here.
>
> Laying down conductive wire itself would also be possible and
> that could be buried into the plastic. I'd probably want a
> 2nd head just for the wire itself and I'd need a way to snip
> it. Could just be bare wires and those can be buried in hot
> plastic, easily.
>
> Placing parts? I honestly haven't seen a pick and place robot
> running before, but it must be very precise so that's good.

Pick and place robots that are quite precise are available
for small automated manufacturing machines. It has been a while
but 20 years ago they were probably good to 0.1 mm or so.
Board manufacturing accuracy is essential a 2D problem.

w..

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