Re: $0.03 microcontroller

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: $0.03 microcontroller
Date	2018-10-14 14:26 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<ppvcko$spt$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <ppsido$59m$1@dont-email.me> <7205434a-abd7-4b95-b4c7-d25d90cc6071@googlegroups.com> <tf04sdt3sapu3t7vgli6ofbr9okpa9793g@4ax.com> <ppt6d2$jeu$1@dont-email.me> <l0b4sdtgj97u0l23d9f2dj24tap24eojse@4ax.com>

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On 13/10/18 19:50, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 18:27:13 +0200, David Brown
> <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> 
>> On 13/10/18 17:00, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT),
>>> gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 6:46:20 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 12/10/18 18:11, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 2:50:53 AM UTC-4, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 12.10.2018 um 01:08 schrieb Paul Rubin:
>>>>>>>> upsidedown@downunder.com writes:
>>>>>>>>> There is a lot of operations that will update memory locations, so why
>>>>>>>>> would you need a lot of CPU registers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Being able to (say) add register to register saves traffic through the
>>>>>>>> accumulator and therefore instructions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1 KiB = 0.5 KiW is quite a lot, it is about 10-15 pages of commented
>>>>>>>>> assembly program listing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would be nice to have a C compiler, and registers help with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looking at the instruction set, it should be possible to make a backend
>>>>>>> for this in SDCC; the architecture looks more C-friendly than the
>>>>>>> existing pic14 and pic16 backends. But it surely isn't as nice as stm8
>>>>>>> or z80.
>>>>>>> reentrant functions will be inefficent: No registers, and no sp-relative
>>>>>>> adressing mode. On would want to reserve a few memory locations as
>>>>>>> pseudo-registers to help with that, but that only goes so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CPUs like this (and others that aren't like this) should be
>>>>>> programmed  in Forth. It's a great tool for small MCUs and many times can be hosted
>>>>>> on the target although not likely in this case. Still, you can bring
>>>>>> enough functionality onto the MCU to allow direct downloads and many
>>>>>> debugging features without an ICE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rick C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Forth is a good language for very small devices, but there are details
>>>>> that can make a huge difference in how efficient it is.  To make Forth
>>>>> work well on a small chip you need a Forth-specific instruction set to
>>>>> target the stack processing.  For example, adding two numbers in this
>>>>> chip is two instructions - load accumulator from memory X, add
>>>>> accumulator to memory Y.  In a Forth cpu, you'd have a single
>>>>> instruction that does "pop two numbers, add them, push the result".
>>>>> That gives a very efficient and compact instruction set.  But it is hard
>>>>> to get the same results from a chip that doesn't have this kind of
>>>>> stack-based instruction set.
>>>>
>>>> Your point is what exactly?  You are comparing running forth on some other chip to running forth on this chip.  How is that useful?  There are many other chips that run very fast.  So?
>>>>
>>>> I believe others have said the instruction set is memory oriented with no registers.
>>>
>>> Depending how you look at it, you could claim that it has 64 registers
>>> and no RAM. It is a quite orthogonal single address architecture. You
>>> can do practically all single operand instructions (like inc/dec,
>>> shift/rotate etc.) either in the accumulator but equally well in any
>>> of the 64 "registers". For two operand instructions (such as add/sub,
>>> and/or etc,), either the source or destination can be in the memory
>>> "register".
>>
>> Not quite, no.  Only the first 16 memory addresses are directly
>> accessible for most instructions, with the first 32 addresses being
>> available for word-based instructions.  So you could liken it to a
>> device with 16 registers and indirect memory access to the rest of ram.
> 
> Really ?
> 
> In the manual
> 
>> M.n   Only addressed in 0~0xF (0~15) is allowed
> 
> The M.n notation is for bit operations, in which M is the byte address
> and n is the bit number in byte. Restricting M to 4 bits makes sense,
> since n requires 3 bits, thus the total address size for bit
> operations would be 7 bits.
> 
> I couldn't find a reference that the restriction on M also applies to
> byte access. Where is it ?
> 

My interpretation of the manual was that you only had access to the 
first 16 addresses with the M instructions.  But it is entirely possible 
that I am wrong and your interpretation is right.  I haven't tried the 
devices, or the IDE, and the manual does not have details of things like 
instruction format.

Certainly it would be nicer for the chip if you are right!

Thread

$0.03 microcontroller Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2018-10-10 12:05 +1100
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 16:12 -0700
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 17:51 -0700
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 18:56 -0700
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-10 19:29 -0700
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-11 11:39 +0300
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-11 16:08 -0700
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-12 08:50 +0200
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 09:44 +0200
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-12 21:30 +0300
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-12 22:06 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-12 23:45 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-13 21:47 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-14 11:58 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 08:14 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-11 09:27 +0100
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-26 02:23 -0800
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 10:44 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-15 07:29 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-16 09:19 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-16 13:48 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-15 21:34 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-16 09:29 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2018-10-15 21:22 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-16 10:00 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2018-10-16 22:52 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 14:01 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2018-10-17 00:03 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2018-10-17 09:22 +1100
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 15:29 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 00:46 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-17 09:35 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 09:31 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 07:08 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-17 18:37 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 10:04 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-17 23:07 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-17 08:23 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-17 19:43 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-17 20:24 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2018-10-17 11:31 -0400
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-05 12:41 +0100
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-12 09:11 -0700
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 12:46 +0200
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 05:06 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 18:00 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 18:27 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 20:50 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:26 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 18:20 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-14 08:53 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-14 08:55 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:32 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 18:21 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 18:32 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-13 19:02 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:37 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-14 14:59 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-13 11:06 -0700
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 18:31 +0300
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 19:46 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 19:59 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 21:31 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 22:19 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-13 21:24 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 22:50 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:39 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 05:11 -0700
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 21:03 +0300
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 18:25 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 14:20 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-21 16:27 +0300
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2018-10-21 07:47 -0700
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-21 08:08 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2018-10-21 09:31 -0700
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-21 10:51 -0700
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2018-10-21 12:44 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-22 00:28 +0000
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-21 21:43 +0200
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Phil Martel <pomartel@comcast.net> - 2018-10-21 11:03 -0400
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2018-10-21 20:59 -0400
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2018-10-11 14:04 +0100
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 15:56 +0200
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2018-10-13 09:35 +0100
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-13 13:06 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 11:30 +0100
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-12 10:18 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-12 21:39 +0300
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-08 13:53 +0100
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2018-11-08 15:08 +0200
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-08 14:34 +0100
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-11-08 21:52 +0200
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-08 21:56 +0100
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-11-09 00:35 +0200
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-09 09:00 +0100
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 14:19 +0200
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Tim <cpldcpu+usenet@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 01:46 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-10-14 10:55 +0100
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-24 15:57 +0200
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 14:35 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller raimond.dragomir@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 06:05 -0700
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 07:19 -0700
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-15 07:26 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 07:30 -0700

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