Re: $0.03 microcontroller

From	Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: $0.03 microcontroller
Date	2018-10-16 22:52 +0200
Message-ID	<g2n1cmFs167U1@mid.dfncis.de> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <pppjcf$k13$1@dont-email.me> <kro1sdh5sm1kaq11l38bqpdv0v959ac248@4ax.com> <pq1k0o$8qn$1@solani.org> <g2k7o2Fah3jU1@mid.dfncis.de> <pq45rr$v0k$1@solani.org>

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Am 16.10.2018 um 10:00 schrieb Philipp Klaus Krause:
> Am 15.10.2018 um 21:22 schrieb Hans-Bernhard Bröker:
>> Am 15.10.2018 um 10:44 schrieb Philipp Klaus Krause:
>>> Am 12.10.2018 um 20:30 schrieb upsidedown@downunder.com:
>>>>
>>>> With such small ROM/RAM sizes, who needs reentrant functions ?
>>>
>>> Everyone. 
>>
>> Absolutely not.  Reentrant functions are a massive nuisance on fully
>> embedded systems, if only because they routinely make it impossible to
>> determine the actual stack size usage.
> 
> What is the problem?

The major part of it is that I mixed up Reentrance with Recursion there
... sorry for that.

OTOH, one does tend to influence the other.  Without recursion, one
would only really need reentrance to be able to call the same function
from separate threads of execution.  On controllers this small, that
would only happen if you're calling the same function from inside an
interrupt handler and the main loop.  And frankly: you really don't want
to do that.  If an ISR on this kind of hardware becomes big enough you
feel the need to split it into sub-functions, that almost certainly
means you've picked entirely the wrong tool for the job.

In other words: for this kind of system (very small, with rotten
stack-based addressing), not only doesn't everyone need re-entrant
functions, it's more like nobody does.

>> On the contrary: it's precisely the compilers for such stack-starved
>> architectures (e.g. the 8051) that have been coupling behind-the-scenes
>> static allocation of automatic variables with whole-program overlay
>> analysis since effectively forever.  They really had to, because the
>> alternative would be painful to the point of being unusable.
>>
> 
> Well, SDCC when targeting MCS-51 or HC08 would be the combination that I
> know a bit about  

I don't think anyone has ever seriously claimed SDCC to be anywhere near
the pinnacle of compiler design for the 8051.  ;-P

Frankly, just looking at statements in this thread has me thinking that
the usual suspects among commercial offerings from 20 years ago might
still run circles around it today.

> SDCC doesn't really have link-time optimization yet, compilation
> units are handled independently.
Well, given the gigantic scale differences between the target hardware
and the build host, just turning the whole thing into a single
compilation unit (by force, if necessary) should really be a no-brainer.

Thread

$0.03 microcontroller Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2018-10-10 12:05 +1100
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 16:12 -0700
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 17:51 -0700
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2018-10-10 18:56 -0700
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-10 19:29 -0700
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-11 11:39 +0300
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-11 16:08 -0700
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-12 08:50 +0200
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-12 09:44 +0200
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-12 21:30 +0300
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-12 22:06 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-12 23:45 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-13 21:47 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-14 11:58 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 08:14 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-11 09:27 +0100
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-26 02:23 -0800
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 10:44 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-15 07:29 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-16 09:19 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-16 13:48 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-15 21:34 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-16 09:29 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2018-10-15 21:22 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-16 10:00 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2018-10-16 22:52 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 14:01 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2018-10-17 00:03 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2018-10-17 09:22 +1100
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 15:29 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 00:46 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-17 09:35 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-17 09:31 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 07:08 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-17 18:37 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 10:04 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-17 23:07 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-17 08:23 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-17 19:43 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-17 20:24 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2018-10-17 11:31 -0400
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-05 12:41 +0100
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-12 09:11 -0700
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 12:46 +0200
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 05:06 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 18:00 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 18:27 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 20:50 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:26 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 18:20 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-14 08:53 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-14 08:55 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:32 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-13 18:21 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 18:32 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-13 19:02 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:37 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-14 14:59 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-13 11:06 -0700
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 18:31 +0300
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 19:46 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 19:59 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 21:31 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 22:19 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-13 21:24 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2018-10-13 22:50 +0300
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-14 14:39 +0200
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 05:11 -0700
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-13 21:03 +0300
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-13 18:25 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 14:20 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-21 16:27 +0300
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2018-10-21 07:47 -0700
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-21 08:08 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2018-10-21 09:31 -0700
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-21 10:51 -0700
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2018-10-21 12:44 -0700
                Re: $0.03 microcontroller Brett <ggtgp@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-22 00:28 +0000
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-21 21:43 +0200
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Phil Martel <pomartel@comcast.net> - 2018-10-21 11:03 -0400
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2018-10-21 20:59 -0400
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2018-10-11 14:04 +0100
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-10-11 15:56 +0200
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2018-10-13 09:35 +0100
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-13 13:06 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Michael Kellett <mk@mkesc.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 11:30 +0100
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-12 10:18 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-10-12 21:39 +0300
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-08 13:53 +0100
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2018-11-08 15:08 +0200
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-08 14:34 +0100
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-11-08 21:52 +0200
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-08 21:56 +0100
            Re: $0.03 microcontroller upsidedown@downunder.com - 2018-11-09 00:35 +0200
              Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-11-09 09:00 +0100
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 14:19 +0200
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Tim <cpldcpu+usenet@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 01:46 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2018-10-14 10:55 +0100
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-24 15:57 +0200
  Re: $0.03 microcontroller Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2018-10-15 14:35 +0200
    Re: $0.03 microcontroller raimond.dragomir@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 06:05 -0700
      Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 07:19 -0700
        Re: $0.03 microcontroller Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2018-10-15 07:26 -0700
          Re: $0.03 microcontroller gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com - 2018-10-15 07:30 -0700

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