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Groups > alt.usage.english > #1148514 > unrolled thread
| Started by | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-08-10 08:16 +0200 |
| Last post | 2026-08-13 02:46 +0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 333 — 25 participants |
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Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 08:16 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-10 08:02 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 10:21 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-10 21:32 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 07:00 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 17:45 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-11 15:19 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-11 20:46 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-08-11 16:40 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-12 06:15 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-12 15:26 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-12 09:49 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-12 09:57 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-12 15:25 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-12 20:38 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:28 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-13 01:02 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-13 08:37 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-13 10:39 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-13 21:05 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 11:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-13 14:26 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-13 17:11 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-13 21:58 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:22 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 11:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-14 21:26 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 20:48 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 22:40 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 09:56 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 10:16 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-13 21:06 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-13 19:14 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 08:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-08-14 15:05 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 09:30 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 19:56 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:17 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 07:42 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-15 05:31 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:36 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:45 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 17:27 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:22 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:11 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-16 08:37 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 10:15 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-16 10:55 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-16 11:03 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 20:52 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 11:43 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-15 01:59 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 22:08 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Radey Shouman <shouman@comcast.net> - 2026-08-17 11:51 -0400
Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 07:38 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 12:18 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 20:44 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:20 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:18 +1000
Re: Woke, wokest? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 08:04 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:25 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-16 09:32 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:29 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 11:22 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 20:54 +1000
Re: Woke, wokest? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-17 07:50 +0200
Re: Woke, wokest? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-17 21:36 +0100
Re: Woke, wokest? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-17 22:38 +0000
Re: Woke, wokest? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 13:00 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:33 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 07:32 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 09:09 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 12:00 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-14 21:13 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 13:35 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 13:14 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 14:31 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-14 17:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-14 19:07 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 22:40 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-13 20:31 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-13 19:55 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 19:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:48 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:31 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:27 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-13 22:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 14:25 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-14 15:30 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 10:00 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 15:49 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 11:09 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-14 16:50 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 10:38 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-14 19:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 19:54 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 09:42 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:38 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 16:37 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 10:30 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 09:46 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 09:47 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 09:37 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 08:16 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-16 08:36 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 10:17 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-16 11:17 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-16 14:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 12:11 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 20:59 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 21:04 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 18:05 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-17 08:28 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-17 10:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-16 19:21 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:10 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:05 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:36 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:39 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 13:25 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 10:52 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 11:12 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-14 15:45 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 13:24 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-14 17:36 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-08-14 18:47 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 15:03 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 15:44 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:47 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 16:40 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 10:36 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:44 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 10:00 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 02:24 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 21:49 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 06:41 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 07:57 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:13 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 16:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-15 05:41 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 11:22 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 19:35 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 12:07 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 13:29 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 11:35 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 14:59 -0400
Cycle Helmets (was: Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 19:46 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 15:46 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:16 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-15 10:46 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 10:41 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-15 19:29 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 17:33 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:52 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 17:05 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-15 17:15 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 20:31 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 21:37 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-15 19:38 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:18 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 22:45 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 22:11 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-16 08:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-16 10:38 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 12:11 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:05 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:04 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 10:42 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:01 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 16:13 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:26 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:24 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 06:59 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 22:59 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Phil <phil@anonymous.invalid> - 2026-08-16 00:18 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 07:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 09:39 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 19:44 -0700
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:27 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-15 09:55 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:42 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 12:28 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:03 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-15 10:51 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 20:59 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-15 20:32 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-13 23:03 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-14 08:43 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-14 13:04 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:06 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 13:59 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 17:25 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 15:46 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 16:54 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 19:53 +0200
There was a crroked man and he stole a crooked straight Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:14 +0200
Re: There was a crroked man and he stole a crooked straight Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:14 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 21:28 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:10 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 03:17 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-08-16 18:42 +1200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-08-17 04:10 -0300
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-17 10:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-18 08:51 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-18 11:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-18 10:48 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-18 19:28 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-18 23:15 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-08-19 18:49 -0300
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-19 17:56 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-20 02:36 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-19 21:48 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-20 09:57 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-20 11:34 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-15 17:15 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:20 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-18 11:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 09:41 +0200
North and South Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 20:35 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 09:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-15 16:54 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:37 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:14 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:30 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 03:20 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-15 20:47 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:19 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 21:21 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-17 07:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-17 21:39 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-18 04:28 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-18 14:12 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-16 09:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 14:19 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-14 18:10 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-14 13:30 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:07 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:32 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:41 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:10 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-15 19:46 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 22:01 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-16 06:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-13 22:40 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-08-14 12:17 +0530
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 12:04 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-14 13:55 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-14 13:04 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-14 21:19 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 15:25 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-14 21:15 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-08-14 16:30 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:05 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 08:08 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-14 23:24 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:12 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 12:54 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 21:06 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 13:08 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 17:20 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 14:16 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-15 15:15 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:29 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-15 23:26 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:54 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-16 03:22 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-15 19:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 18:43 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:00 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 18:55 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:07 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 10:42 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-15 15:29 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 21:26 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-16 09:17 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-15 20:09 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-16 11:25 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-15 10:01 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-08-15 08:14 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> - 2026-08-15 05:28 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2026-08-15 14:24 -0400
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:26 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-10 10:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 11:36 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-10 13:58 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-10 21:36 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 10:47 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2026-08-11 09:31 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 08:39 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 17:54 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 09:07 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 11:07 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2026-08-11 22:03 +1200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 10:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-10 13:11 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-10 15:41 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 10:52 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-08-11 06:52 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 10:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 20:33 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-11 10:45 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-11 10:32 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 15:56 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-11 21:02 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-08-11 22:53 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-12 11:09 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-12 20:14 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-12 11:24 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-13 14:45 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-12 10:40 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-13 15:09 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-12 14:59 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:40 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-12 22:38 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-08-10 14:22 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-08-10 16:26 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 11:21 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-10 11:05 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-10 11:48 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-10 17:30 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> - 2026-08-10 21:42 +0100
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-08-11 11:58 +1000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-08-11 06:02 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2026-08-11 09:38 +0000
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-08-12 21:55 +0530
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-08-13 07:46 +0200
Re: Why does the Devil need an advocate? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 02:46 +0800
Page 16 of 17 — ← Prev page 1 … 14 15 [16] 17 Next page →
| From | "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-10 13:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <20260810131131.f63859651bb33d71e5cd7434@127.0.0.1> |
| In reply to | #1148522 |
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200 nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote: > > > To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the > > devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these > > advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible > > is a bad thing? > > Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary. > Creating saints takes te form of a trial. > His role is to be critical of the evidence, > so this is a positiverole in the proces. > We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? [1] You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print. > > > I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his > > own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, > > saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc. > > Certainly not. > Early on the church fathers decreed at one of their councils > that the christian god is all powerful, all knowing, all everything. > So the devil has no powers of his own, beyond what god allows him. > All and any dualism is heresy, (of Manichaeism) > and so a good reason for burning all kinds of Gnostics at the stake. > > Unfortunately many protestants, in particular American ones, > have forgotten this deep christian truth, > > Jan > > [1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties > where they still have a public PhD defense. > > > -- Bah, and indeed Humbug.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-10 15:41 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1rzmtb5.1yotyon1lkz4inN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> |
| In reply to | #1148533 |
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200 > nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > > > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote: > > > > > To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the > > > devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these > > > advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible > > > is a bad thing? > > > > Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary. > > Creating saints takes the form of a trial. > > His role is to be critical of the evidence, > > so this is a positive role in the process. > > We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? > > You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print. No probem, I guess. In those long past days only the truth was printed, and what was printed was the truth. By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone') Jan
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 10:52 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115drnm$3j6vb$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148537 |
On 10/08/26 23:41, J. J. Lodder wrote: > By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit. > 'he lies*as if* it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies > like a tombstone') There is a comparable saying in English using something like "as if it were printed in black and white". Unfortunately a mantal block is preventing me from giving the details. Of some politicians we say "He cannot lie straight in bed". -- Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org Newcastle, NSW
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 06:52 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ndvrk6Fb0htU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148558 |
Le 11/08/2026 à 01:52, Peter Moylan a écrit : > On 10/08/26 23:41, J. J. Lodder wrote: >> >> By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit. >> 'he lies*as if* it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies >> like a tombstone') > > There is a comparable saying in English using something like "as if it > were printed in black and white". Unfortunately a mantal block is > preventing me from giving the details. > > Of some politicians we say "He cannot lie straight in bed". There's "gospel truth" too (parole d'évangile), a term often used without irony. Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary).
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 10:53 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1rzo8my.1ch7phuvf65tvN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> |
| In reply to | #1148563 |
Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: > Le 11/08/2026 à 01:52, Peter Moylan a écrit : > > On 10/08/26 23:41, J. J. Lodder wrote: > >> > >> By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit. > >> 'he lies*as if* it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies > >> like a tombstone') > > > > There is a comparable saying in English using something like "as if it > > were printed in black and white". Unfortunately a mantal block is > > preventing me from giving the details. > > > > Of some politicians we say "He cannot lie straight in bed". > > > There's "gospel truth" too (parole d'évangile), a term often used > without irony. > > Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary). There are coppery meters too? Jan
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 20:33 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115etpb$3tk58$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148576 |
On 11/08/26 18:53, J. J. Lodder wrote: > Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: >> There's "gospel truth" too (parole d'évangile), a term often used >> without irony. >> >> Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary). > > There are coppery meters too? Coppers sometimes use lie detectors. -- Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org Newcastle, NSW
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 10:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <115eugr$5vmj$1@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk> |
| In reply to | #1148563 |
In article <ndvrk6Fb0htU2@mid.individual.net>, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote: >Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary). Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is? Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron. -- Richard
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| From | "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 10:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <20260811103210.c5f8a944256d3adb6ab85600@127.0.0.1> |
| In reply to | #1148537 |
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200 nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200 > > nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > > > > > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote: > > > > > > > To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the > > > > devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these > > > > advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible > > > > is a bad thing? > > > > > > Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary. > > > Creating saints takes the form of a trial. > > > His role is to be critical of the evidence, > > > so this is a positive role in the process. > > > We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? > > > > You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print. > > No probem, I guess. > In those long past days only the truth was printed, > and what was printed was the truth. > > By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' > (lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed', > or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone') > I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil a diabolical job. -- Bah, and indeed Humbug.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 15:56 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1rzojuz.i03gvmc7mjgtN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> |
| In reply to | #1148580 |
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200 > nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > > > Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200 > > > nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > > > > > > > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote: > > > > > > > > > To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend > > > > > the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that > > > > > these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the > > > > > indefensible is a bad thing? > > > > > > > > Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary. > > > > Creating saints takes the form of a trial. > > > > His role is to be critical of the evidence, > > > > so this is a positive role in the process. > > > > We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? > > > > > > You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print. > > > > No probem, I guess. > > In those long past days only the truth was printed, > > and what was printed was the truth. > > > > By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' > > (lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed', > > or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone') > > > > I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works) > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil > > a diabolical job. I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead. (the little setting devil) He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors that become meaningful in unsuspected ways. He long predates Freud. Jan
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| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 21:02 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mdLeS.2195$zEP6.866@fx17.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148591 |
On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote: > Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > >> On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200 >> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: >> >>> Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200 >>>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: >>>> >>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend >>>>>> the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that >>>>>> these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the >>>>>> indefensible is a bad thing? >>>>> >>>>> Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary. >>>>> Creating saints takes the form of a trial. >>>>> His role is to be critical of the evidence, >>>>> so this is a positive role in the process. >>>>> We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? >>>> >>>> You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print. >>> >>> No probem, I guess. >>> In those long past days only the truth was printed, >>> and what was printed was the truth. >>> >>> By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' >>> (lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed', >>> or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone') >>> >> >> I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works) >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil >> >> a diabolical job. > > I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead. > (the little setting devil) > He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors > that become meaningful in unsuspected ways. When they later show up in plagiarised work? > He long predates Freud. > > Jan -- Sam Plusnet
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| From | nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-11 22:53 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <1rzp88b.5i21xc1r1dxy5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> |
| In reply to | #1148595 |
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote: > On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote: > > Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200 > >> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > >> > >>> Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200 > >>>> nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend > >>>>>> the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that > >>>>>> these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the > >>>>>> indefensible is a bad thing? > >>>>> > >>>>> Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary. > >>>>> Creating saints takes the form of a trial. > >>>>> His role is to be critical of the evidence, > >>>>> so this is a positive role in the process. > >>>>> We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? > >>>> > >>>> You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print. > >>> > >>> No probem, I guess. > >>> In those long past days only the truth was printed, > >>> and what was printed was the truth. > >>> > >>> By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' > >>> (lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed', > >>> or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone') > >>> > >> > >> I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works) > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil > >> > >> a diabolical job. > > > > I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead. > > (the little setting devil) > > He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors > > that become meaningful in unsuspected ways. > > When they later show up in plagiarised work? No, the editor does that deliberately. 'Het zetduiveltje' produces errors in typeset text that unexpectedly change the meaning, often in humourous ways. Some are not detected until many years later. (if at all) He is the Dutch incarnation of the original Titivillus. Now that the age of lead is over he has taken refuge under computer keyboards, Jan
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| From | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 11:09 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ne2rijFq18eU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148595 |
On 11/08/2026 22:02, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead.
>> (the little setting devil)
>> He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors
>> that become meaningful in unsuspected ways.
>
> When they later show up in plagiarised work?
I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism of
the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence that
highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another source and
pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or correcting) the
grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward typo ('het
zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was, nevertheless, proof of
cut 'n copy.
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| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 20:14 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115hh2p$nlaq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148605 |
On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
> I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
> of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
> that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
> source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
> correcting) the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
> typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
> nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
that didn't say anything sensible.
After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck
together.
--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
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| From | Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 11:24 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <27260.18922.830729.942145@parhasard.net> |
| In reply to | #1148607 |
Ar an dara lá déag de mí Lúnasa, scríobh Peter Moylan: > [...] I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was > well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made no > sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure that > didn't say anything sensible. > > After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck > together. !! I haven’t ever had any desire to cheat in academic work, but it did occur to me that, if you’re comfortable in multiple languages, an approach that would be difficult to detect automatically would be to translate relevant source material in a language that is not that of the assessment and plagiarise that way. Automated translation is good enough for the major languages these days that even doing it that way might work. -- ‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out / How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’ (C. Moore)
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| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-13 14:45 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115ji4i$1bt6l$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148608 |
On 12/08/26 20:24, Aidan Kehoe wrote: > I haven’t ever had any desire to cheat in academic work, but it did > occur to me that, if you’re comfortable in multiple languages, an > approach that would be difficult to detect automatically would be to > translate relevant source material in a language that is not that of > the assessment and plagiarise that way. Automated translation is good > enough for the major languages these days that even doing it that way > might work. When I was a student I often visited a foreign language bookshop. Among other things, it used to have the latest Reader's Digest in multiple languages. Because of that I discovered that the jokes in Reader's Digest were the same in all the language editions, but in a different order. That is, a joke that appeared in one edition might appear in another language six months later. Now and then I took the trouble of translating jokes from languages I didn't otherwise speak, just for the sake of getting in ahead of those of my friends who read only the English edition. -- Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org Newcastle, NSW
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| From | athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 10:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1786531241-12588@newsgrouper.org> |
| In reply to | #1148607 |
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:
> On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
>
> > I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
> > of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
> > that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
> > source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
> > correcting) the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
> > typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
> > nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
>
> I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
> well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
> no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
> that didn't say anything sensible.
>
> After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck
> together.
>
An example I noticed many years ago concerns one of the most famous papers in
biochemistry, written by Leonor Michaelis and Maud Menten in 1913. In 1934 it
was cited in another famous paper by Hans Lineweaver and Dean Burk. Unfortunately
they had an error (wrong page number, I think, but no matter) in the reference.
Afterwards I noticed that many of the papers that cited Michaelis and Menten
had exactly same error as Lineweaver and Burk, making it clear that they cited
the 1913 paper without actually reading it or even taking it off the shelf in
the library. (It was in German, but that's no excuse.)
--
athel
Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
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| From | Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-13 15:09 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <115jjhg$1c7d0$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #1148610 |
On 12/08/26 20:40, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote: > An example I noticed many years ago concerns one of the most famous > papers in biochemistry, written by Leonor Michaelis and Maud Menten > in 1913. In 1934 it was cited in another famous paper by Hans > Lineweaver and Dean Burk. Unfortunately they had an error (wrong page > number, I think, but no matter) in the reference. Afterwards I > noticed that many of the papers that cited Michaelis and Menten had > exactly same error as Lineweaver and Burk, making it clear that they > cited the 1913 paper without actually reading it or even taking it > off the shelf in the library. (It was in German, but that's no > excuse.) In the course of my research I needed a known result on systems of linear inequalities, and I felt that I couldn't cite it until I understood the proof. For some reason it didn't appear in the engineering or mathematics literature that I searched, but it was a known result in economics. It turned out, though, that the mathematical economists all cited one another for the result, but nobody provided a proof. It looked very much as if none of them had ever seen a proof. There was some sort of mutual trust linkage, along the lines of "I believe the truth of the theorem because everyone else believes it". Some tricky deletective work finally led me to a 1915 paper in Mathematische Annalen. (And an AUE regular found me a copy of the paper. I regret to say that I've forgotten who it was.) I couldn't understand the proof, so I laboriously translated it into English. I still couldn't understand the proof. It wasn't the German I was having trouble with, it was the mathematics. The result can be stated neatly in the language of matrices, but becomes incomprehensible if you don't use matrix notation. Eventually, with the aid of a little bit of the original that I did undertand, I came up with my own proof. But I still have a citation to the original, unlike all those economics textbooks and papers. -- Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org Newcastle, NSW
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| From | occam <occam@nowhere.nix> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 14:59 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ne391iFs267U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #1148607 |
On 12/08/2026 12:14, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
>
>> I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
>> of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
>> that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
>> source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
>> correcting) the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
>> typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
>> nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
>
> I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
> well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
> no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
> that didn't say anything sensible.
>
> After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck
> together.
>
That last sentence worries me. I hope you washed your hands thoroughly.
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| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 22:40 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <sL5fS.550$S932.305@fx03.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148616 |
On 12/08/2026 13:59, occam wrote:
> On 12/08/2026 12:14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
>>
>>> I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
>>> of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
>>> that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
>>> source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
>>> correcting) the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
>>> typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
>>> nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
>>
>> I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
>> well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
>> no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
>> that didn't say anything sensible.
>>
>> After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck
>> together.
>>
>
> That last sentence worries me. I hope you washed your hands thoroughly.
And the library should have splashed out on a new copy.
--
Sam Plusnet
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| From | Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-08-12 22:38 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <sJ5fS.549$S932.466@fx03.ams1> |
| In reply to | #1148605 |
On 12/08/2026 10:09, occam wrote:
> On 11/08/2026 22:02, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>>> On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>>> I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead.
>>> (the little setting devil)
>>> He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors
>>> that become meaningful in unsuspected ways.
>>
>> When they later show up in plagiarised work?
>
> I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism of
> the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence that
> highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another source and
> pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or correcting) the
> grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward typo ('het
> zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was, nevertheless, proof of
> cut 'n copy.
I did have that in mind[1].
The problem with grammatical errors is that lots of people make them, so
two people might well share such an error.
Of course if that error is in the middle of several pages of cut & paste...
[1] People are trying to dance around on this story, since the person
who forced the issue into the light of day appears to have strong racist
views about the intellectual abilities of people with dark skins.
--
Sam Plusnet
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