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"Parallel societies"

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  "Parallel societies" occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-06-27 08:00 +0200
    Re: "Parallel societies" Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-06-28 11:07 +1000
      Re: "Parallel societies" Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-06-28 06:11 +0100
        Re: "Parallel societies" Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-06-28 10:42 +0200
        Re: "Parallel societies" nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-06-28 11:01 +0200
        Re: "Parallel societies" Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-06-28 21:08 +1000
          Re: "Parallel societies" occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2026-06-28 13:41 +0200
            Re: "Parallel societies" Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2026-06-29 10:14 +1000
              Re: "Parallel societies" wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2026-06-29 00:55 +0000
              Re: "Parallel societies" athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-06-29 15:04 +0000
          Re: "Parallel societies" Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> - 2026-06-28 14:46 +0100
      Re: "Parallel societies" Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-06-28 10:40 +0200
        Re: "Parallel societies" liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-06-28 15:32 +0100
          Re: "Parallel societies" Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> - 2026-06-28 17:24 +0200

#1145797 — "Parallel societies"

I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the term
was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence it's a
euphemism with European origins, for a change.

According to Wiki:

"Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well as
other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."

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#1145831

On 27/06/26 16:00, occam wrote:

> I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
> 'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the
> term was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence
> it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.
>
> According to Wiki:
>
> "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
> least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well
> as other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."

It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.

In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out. They work hard, they teach their
children to work hard, the children are high achievers at school, and
within one generation they have moved up socially. Some other
communities shrink within their own group, limit their interaction with
the wider community, and discourage their children from joining that
community. Religion is part of the reason for this, but it can't be the
whole reason.

In this country we're very conscious of the backwards status of
indigenous people. They suffer from poor health, poor education,
poverty, domestic violence, high rates of imprisonment, and so on. The
main reason is that all these factors are interlinked. Poverty leads to
poor education, which leads to unemployment, more poverty, crime, etc.
It's a vicious cycle. Attempts to break the cycle have mostly failed.
But at least there's recognition that there is a problem, which gives
hope for the future.

-- 
Peter Moylan       peter@pmoylan.org    http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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#1145847

Le 28/06/2026 à 02:07, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 27/06/26 16:00, occam wrote:
>>
>> I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
>> 'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the
>> term was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence
>> it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.
>>
>> According to Wiki:
>>
>> "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
>> least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well
>> as other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."
> 
> It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
> undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
> up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.


I agree that they're different. For one thing, 'ghetto' evokes the 
Jewish ghettos on the Continent. 'Parallel societies' suggests a lack of 
interaction.

> In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
> between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
> Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out. They work hard, they teach their
> children to work hard, the children are high achievers at school, and
> within one generation they have moved up socially. Some other
> communities shrink within their own group, limit their interaction with
> the wider community, and discourage their children from joining that
> community. Religion is part of the reason for this, but it can't be the
> whole reason. […]


Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British people 
on the Continent:

"Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French on 
a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to 
translate documents and even accompany them to hospital appointments. 
However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being integrated.

What surprised me was how creative people became when articulating a 
sense of what it meant to be integrated - for them. One couple, whose 
low level of French limited their activities, skimmed over their lack of 
socialising and emphasised their compliance with French residency laws. 
They contrasted themselves with the 'part-timers' who still drove around 
with UK registration plates. […]

The same people had proudly told me that they filled the car with bacon 
and teabags on their twice yearly trips home, just a few minutes after 
describing other Britons as sad and wrong for continuing to eat British 
foods" -
<https://www.open.ac.uk/blogs/news/education-languages-health/languages/britons-reluctant-to-appear-part-of-a-british-expat-community-in-france-brexit-could-change-that/>

And it's true of migrants who come here and stick to their own language, 
foods, religion, customs, and even laws. Parallel societies.

Language is key. Without it, integration is impossible.

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#1145857

Den 28.06.2026 kl. 07.11 skrev Hibou:

>> It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
>> undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
>> up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.
> 
> 
> I agree that they're different. For one thing, 'ghetto' evokes the 
> Jewish ghettos on the Continent. 'Parallel societies' suggests a lack of 
> interaction.

We use both words in Denmark. "Ghetto" just signals problems. "Parallel 
society" suggests what the problems are.

-- 
Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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#1145860

Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> Le 28/06/2026 à 02:07, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> > On 27/06/26 16:00, occam wrote:
> >>
> >> I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
> >> 'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the
> >> term was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence
> >> it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.
> >>
> >> According to Wiki:
> >>
> >> "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
> >> least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well
> >> as other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."
> > 
> > It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
> > undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
> > up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.
> 
> 
> I agree that they're different. For one thing, 'ghetto' evokes the 
> Jewish ghettos on the Continent.

Easily said, by the English. There were no ghettos in England
because the English had expelled and/or massacred all Jews in 1290.
(while confiscating most of their possessions of course)
This was an European first, fully 200 years
before the Inquisition started becoming real nasty.

> 'Parallel societies' suggests a lack of interaction.

They certainly had 'a lack of interaction' after that.

> > In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
> > between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
> > Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out. They work hard, they teach their
> > children to work hard, the children are high achievers at school, and
> > within one generation they have moved up socially. Some other
> > communities shrink within their own group, limit their interaction with
> > the wider community, and discourage their children from joining that
> > community. Religion is part of the reason for this, but it can't be the
> > whole reason. […]
> 
> 
> Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British people
> on the Continent:
> 
> "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French on
> a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to 
> translate documents and even accompany them to hospital appointments.
> However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being integrated.

Some even write books on it.
<https://www.undutchables.com>
(and run a help agency with the same name)

Jan

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#1145865

On 28/06/26 15:11, Hibou wrote:
>
> Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British
> people on the Continent:
>
> "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French
> on a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
>  translate documents and even accompany them to hospital
> appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being
> integrated.

I was partly guilty of this during the year in which I lived in the USA.
My friends were mostly from British Commonwealth or former Commonwealth
countries At times we used to sit around griping about the difficulty of
understanding those crazy Americans. My mother-in-law often mailed us
food parcels (although not on my request). I drove a Japanese car, which
at the time was an Australian thing to do.

Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning to
speak American. At Thanksgiving I ate pumpkin pie without grimacing. I
spoke to people at bus stops. So I'll give myself a score of 50%.

-- 
Peter Moylan       peter@pmoylan.org    http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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#1145869

On 28/06/2026 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/06/26 15:11, Hibou wrote:
>>
>> Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British
>> people on the Continent:
>>
>> "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French
>> on a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
>>  translate documents and even accompany them to hospital
>> appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being
>> integrated.
> 
> I was partly guilty of this during the year in which I lived in the USA.
> My friends were mostly from British Commonwealth or former Commonwealth
> countries At times we used to sit around griping about the difficulty of
> understanding those crazy Americans. My mother-in-law often mailed us
> food parcels (although not on my request). I drove a Japanese car, which
> at the time was an Australian thing to do.
> 
> Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning to
> speak American. 

<smile> Would that be white American, or some other variety of AmE?

QUOTE: (P. Moylan, 20/05/2026, thread 'Logorreah')

"The silly thing was that in my son's class there was only one speaker
of white American"


> At Thanksgiving I ate pumpkin pie without grimacing. I
> spoke to people at bus stops. So I'll give myself a score of 50%.
> 

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#1145880

On 28/06/26 21:41, occam wrote:
> On 28/06/2026 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning
>> to speak American.
>
> <smile> Would that be white American, or some other variety of AmE?

Berkeley is a place where you don't often meet a native Californian.
People have migrated there from all over the country, and of course from
outside the country as well. As a result, there's not a well-defined
local dialect. It's a mixture of multiple influences, and I guess that[s
what I learnt to speak. "White American" is as good a description as any.

The black people in that area speak a rather different dialect. I learnt
to understand that, but not to speak it.

-- 
Peter Moylan       peter@pmoylan.org    http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

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#1145881

In article <111sdd7$3v62q$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan  <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

>Berkeley is a place where you don't often meet a native Californian.
>People have migrated there from all over the country, and of course from
>outside the country as well. As a result, there's not a well-defined
>local dialect. It's a mixture of multiple influences, and I guess that[s
>what I learnt to speak. "White American" is as good a description as any.

I suspect the late Bill Labov would strongly dispute that assertion,
although to be fair CalE is not particularly noticeably distinct from
the other west-coast states as it is from other dialect regions.
Minnesota is (certainly was, when you were in Berkeley) much whiter
than California and it has and had a very different local accent.
Likewise Western New England (my native accent).

That said, dialectologists often exclude people who have moved in
adulthood from accent surveys specifically because of the phenomenon
you are describing, that it is difficult to tell what's accommodation
and what's substrate for non-natives.

-GAWollman

-- 
Garrett A. Wollman    | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future.  This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers.         | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

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#1145896

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:

> On 28/06/26 21:41, occam wrote:
> > On 28/06/2026 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:
> 
> >> Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning
> >> to speak American.
> >
> > <smile> Would that be white American, or some other variety of AmE?
> 
> Berkeley is a place where you don't often meet a native Californian.

(I thought I had already commented on this, but apparently I forgot to press
post. So I try again. If I did in fact post it, but for reason my computer is
not displaying it, then I apologize for repeating myself.)

In 1968 I went with my fiancée to a party in the house of my boss, at which 
there were about 40 people. Of that 40 there was just one native Californian,
my fiancée, born in Vallejo to parents from Texas and Illinois. For a long
time I thought that my boss was also a native Californian, but no: although 
he came from a family that made a fortune in California during the gold rush
(think Levi-Strauss), he was born in New York.

Of my daughters, the oldest lives in California and was born in Oakland, so
she is a native Californian, but you wouldn't think it to listen to her: she
sounds completely English. The second sounds American, but was born in
Birmingham. THe third sounds completely French when she speaks French, primarily
English when she speaks English, and Chilean when she speaks Spanish. Professor 
Henry Higgins would have a job placing them all by their accents.

> People have migrated there from all over the country, and of course from
> outside the country as well. As a result, there's not a well-defined
> local dialect. It's a mixture of multiple influences, and I guess that[s
> what I learnt to speak. "White American" is as good a description as any.
> 
> The black people in that area speak a rather different dialect. I learnt
> to understand that, but not to speak it.
> 


-- 
athel

Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada 

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#1145871

Le 28/06/2026 à 12:08, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 28/06/26 15:11, Hibou wrote:
>>
>> Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British
>> people on the Continent:
>>
>> "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French
>> on a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
>>  translate documents and even accompany them to hospital
>> appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being
>> integrated.
> 
> I was partly guilty of this during the year in which I lived in the USA.
> My friends were mostly from British Commonwealth or former Commonwealth
> countries At times we used to sit around griping about the difficulty of
> understanding those crazy Americans. My mother-in-law often mailed us
> food parcels (although not on my request). I drove a Japanese car, which
> at the time was an Australian thing to do.
> 
> Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning to
> speak American. At Thanksgiving I ate pumpkin pie without grimacing. I
> spoke to people at bus stops. So I'll give myself a score of 50%.


There are temporary stays for work (I recall I was invited to go to 
Boulder for a while, but never did) and permanent migration by choice. I 
admit to being suspicious of those who move to a country for its 
prosperity, climate, freedom, democracy, or healthcare, while disdaining 
its culture. It feels somehow insulting.

Yet here I am in Scotland, after a wee migration a long time ago. What 
about the culture? Whisky, yes. Bagpipes, sometimes, when I'm in the 
mood. The kilt? No. Scotch pies? Not any more, at least not cheap ones; 
they're heart attacks on a plate. (I eat fruit and veg, which is a bit 
dodgy.) Jack Vettriano? Yes. Charles Rennie Mackintosh? No. I mix with 
the locals, though, married a Scotswoman, and we usually understand each 
other.

(Here's tae us! Wha's like us?
Gey few - an they're a' deid!

What a depressing toast!)

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#1145856

Den 28.06.2026 kl. 03.07 skrev Peter Moylan:

> It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
> undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
> up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.

We have a ghetto-list in Denmark. Anumber of criteria must be met to 
deserve an entry on the list. Most if not all areas on the list consist 
of multiple floor blocks. The solution is to tear down a number of these 
blocks forcing the inhabitants to move elsewhere, and then build houses 
instead. This way the number of problematic inhabitants is rduced and - 
lo and behold - the area is no longer on the list.

It's less stupid than I make it sound. The mix of inhabitants may have a 
positive influence.

> In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
> between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
> Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out.

I have the impression that Vietnamese people also integrate well. But 
then those people fleeing from Vietnam already have positive attitude 
towards the European (Western) style.

-- 
Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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#1145873

Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:


>...The solution is to tear down a number of these 
> blocks forcing the inhabitants to move elsewhere, and then build houses
> instead. 

Wouldn't it make more sense to build the houses first?


-- 
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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#1145876

Den 28.06.2026 kl. 16.32 skrev Liz Tuddenham:

>> ...The solution is to tear down a number of these
>> blocks forcing the inhabitants to move elsewhere, and then build houses
>> instead.
> 
> Wouldn't it make more sense to build the houses first?

The plan is not to have the unhomed inhabitants live in the area. That 
would prevent the status from changing to non-ghetto.

-- 
Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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