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Groups > alt.sys.pdp10 > #8450 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000 |
| Last post | 2022-03-08 23:02 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 96 — 25 participants |
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TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 14:30 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 16:38 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 17:13 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:33 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 21:55 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-04 13:23 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:29 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-06 19:40 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:49 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-12-26 12:49 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-06 11:17 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:53 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-07 22:02 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:55 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-23 12:27 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-07 03:11 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-03-08 22:46 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:10 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> - 2022-03-18 13:36 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-07 07:11 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-07 00:33 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:03 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-07 11:47 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:19 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-08 10:08 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-08 10:54 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 18:52 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-08 17:34 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2022-03-09 00:46 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-09 06:48 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 12:07 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:11 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-09 20:10 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-13 22:20 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-16 19:11 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-09 14:47 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Eric Swenson <eric@swenson.org> - 2022-03-11 10:25 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Sid Maxwell <srmaxwell3@gmail.com> - 2022-03-11 09:14 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> - 2022-03-18 13:41 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-08 19:47 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-09 01:03 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:34 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 18:59 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 22:00 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 21:20 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:13 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 12:13 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2022-03-11 13:56 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-12 01:12 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Phil Budne <phil.budne@gmail.com> - 2022-03-12 11:40 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Phil Budne <phil.budne@gmail.com> - 2022-03-12 11:43 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2022-03-12 22:01 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:18 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:37 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 14:53 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 20:43 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-07 19:52 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:18 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:33 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:58 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 00:06 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 15:22 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 11:17 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-08 21:09 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 21:33 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:24 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:24 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 21:06 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:47 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 10:48 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:03 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 19:52 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2022-03-08 04:13 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:32 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-03-08 23:02 -0800
Page 2 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 Next page →
| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-09 11:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <t09ue1$5q1$1@news.misty.com> |
| In reply to | #8526 |
On 2022-03-09 07:46, gah4 wrote: > On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 11:06:38 AM UTC-8, Peter Flass wrote: > > (snip) > >> It would have to be hard to tell, since the VAX hardware was a lot faster >> than the PDP-10. I enjoyed working with both systems. > > At the place I was in 1982, or maybe 1983, a TOPS-20 system was replaced > with four VAX. Three 11/750 and one 11/730. That was done very fast, as > they sold the TOPS-20 system, and had to deliver it very soon. > > It seems that they didn't think the VAX hardware was so much faster. Depends on what hardware people are talking of. Johnny
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <j8d5qgFhr6oU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #8455 |
On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 15:33:04 -0500, Rich Alderson wrote: > scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes: > >> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes: >>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>> wrote: > >>>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the >>>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780? From a technical standpoint, not from a > >>> PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS. >>> VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS. > >> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family? > > VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983. It is also true to say that it ran on supported hardware in 1977. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <GatUJ.83249$iK66.20676@fx46.iad> |
| In reply to | #8460 |
I would like to apologize for confusing VMS users with my joke/reference. Though Rich has provided some excellent background into the development of TOPS-20. He was there and still is. The "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users" was in reference to the parody in "Alice's PDP-10" which has a passage that goes a little like this: ... And I put down my keyboard, and I switched buffers, and there ... in the other buffer... centered in the other buffer... away from everything else in the buffer... in parentheses, capital letters, in reverse video, read the following words: "Kid, have you taken the ``VMS for TOPS-20 managers'' course yet?" I walked over to the man and I said "Mister, you got a lot of damned gall asking me if I've taken the ``VMS for TOPS-20 managers'' course yet. I mean... I mean... I mean, I'm sitting here on the bench, I'm sitting here on the LCG SIG bench, 'cause you want to know if I'm braindamaged enough trade my PDP-10 for partial credit on a system that doesn't even handle filename completion after being a litterbug." He looked at me and said "Kid, the front office don't like your kind, so we're going to put you on our VAX/VMS mailing list." And friends, somewhere down in the NE43 receiving room is a large trash barrel with a big sign on it that says "VAX/VMS documents". ... Hence the title of the SDF event: "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users". And it's really not just for VMS Users, but anyone interested in TOPS-20. There will likely be more comparisons with Linux (a wildly popular operating system) rather than with VMS (a mildly popular operating system). You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. References: https://www.hactrn.net/sra/alice/alices.pdp10
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| From | drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <Cs2dndg0a7oj4b__nZ2dnUU7-I-dnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #8462 |
> You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. Excepting, of course, Alice. De
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ybwUJ.70155$m1S7.44094@fx36.iad> |
| In reply to | #8465 |
drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes: > > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. > >Excepting, of course, Alice. Thanks Arlo.
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| From | Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <j8fhgmFhr6oU8@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #8467 |
On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 22:14:54 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote: > drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes: >> > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. >> >>Excepting, of course, Alice. > > Thanks Arlo. I have the album and the movie. -- Using UNIX since v6 (1975)... Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| From | David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <t01dml$4i3$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #8468 |
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes: >On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 22:14:54 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote: >> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes: >>> > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. >>> >>>Excepting, of course, Alice. >> >> Thanks Arlo. >I have the album and the movie. What about the 8x10 glossy photographs with circles and arrows...? -- A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com & no one will talk to a host that's close.......................... Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
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| From | Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20220306054018.d6a204d27843abb853ffdf54@eircom.net> |
| In reply to | #8468 |
On 4 Mar 2022 22:17:58 GMT Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote: > I have the album and the movie. How about the anniversary recordings ? I have the thirtieth which has some fun Nixon references. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mddy21pvz6x.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #8460 |
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes:
> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 15:33:04 -0500, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family?
>> VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983.
> It is also true to say that it ran on supported hardware in 1977.
The 4th generation of the PDP-10 line was canceled in May, 1983, although the
customer base was large enough (financially speaking) to force Digital to
provide hardware support until 1988 and software support until 1993, but there
were no more sales by Digital of PDP-10 hardware to new customers after May
1983.
So an advantage of the VAX and VMS over the PDP-10 systems was support after
1983. Got it?
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <t02n22$aqg$1@news.misty.com> |
| In reply to | #8455 |
I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm about to give, but anyway... On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote: > scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes: > >> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes: >>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT >>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: > >>>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the >>>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780? From a technical standpoint, not from a > >>> PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS. >>> VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS. > >> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family? > > VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983. True. Or perhaps you should have said "developed after 1983". Not sure if I'd classify that as an advantage when trying to do some kind of comparison between the systems, though. > The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS. Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich. As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things. TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a much more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have some features and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more mainframe-oriented? What does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse from an execution point of view than VMS, requiring more resources to get the job done. But VMS isn't really any kind of batch oriented environment either... >> I'm quite aware of the hardware specifications. > >> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL? > > Again, there ain't no "TOPS". [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...] I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in TOPS-10 it's EXEC. EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's just so much nicer than DCL. Scripting wise, it's much more muddled. Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective. Johnny
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <288854437.668284159.332299.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #8473 |
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote: > I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already > happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm > about to give, but anyway... > > On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote: >> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes: >> >>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes: >>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT >>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >> >>>>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the >>>>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780? From a technical standpoint, not from a >> >>>> PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS. >>>> VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS. >> >>> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family? >> >> VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983. > > True. Or perhaps you should have said "developed after 1983". Not sure > if I'd classify that as an advantage when trying to do some kind of > comparison between the systems, though. > >> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS. > > Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich. > As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that > enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't > very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things. > TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a > much more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have > some features and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more > mainframe-oriented? What does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse > from an execution point of view than VMS, requiring more resources to > get the job done. But VMS isn't really any kind of batch oriented > environment either... > >>> I'm quite aware of the hardware specifications. >> >>> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL? >> >> Again, there ain't no "TOPS". > > [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...] > I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. > Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the > interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in > TOPS-10 it's EXEC. > EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name > completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's > just so much nicer than DCL. > > Scripting wise, it's much more muddled. > > Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse > in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they > different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to > just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective. > > Johnny > It’s been a lot of years, but doesn’t VMS DCL have command-line completion? (sorry for all the included text, I can’t seem to get this darn thing to select text to delete) -- Pete
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <t05cm5$j99$1@news.misty.com> |
| In reply to | #8476 |
On 2022-03-06 19:34, Peter Flass wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote: >> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already >> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm >> about to give, but anyway... >>>> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL? >>> >>> Again, there ain't no "TOPS". >> >> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...] >> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. >> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the >> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in >> TOPS-10 it's EXEC. >> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name >> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's >> just so much nicer than DCL. >> >> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled. >> >> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse >> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they >> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to >> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective. >> >> Johnny >> > > It’s been a lot of years, but doesn’t VMS DCL have command-line completion? > (sorry for all the included text, I can’t seem to get this darn thing to > select text to delete) No, it don't. On VAX, there was a hack (from DECUS?) called DCLCOMPLETE which sortof added this. But I don't think it was ever made to work on any other hardware platform, it was sortof not working perfectly, and it was definitely not something DEC ever included. Johnny
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| From | "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-18 13:36 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f4d53c0b-c20c-46f9-8b53-88c72c92c522n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #8485 |
On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 5:42:46 PM UTC+1, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2022-03-06 19:34, Peter Flass wrote: > > Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> wrote: > >> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already > >> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm > >> about to give, but anyway... > >>>> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL? > >>> > >>> Again, there ain't no "TOPS". > >> > >> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...] > >> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. > >> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the > >> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in > >> TOPS-10 it's EXEC. > >> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name > >> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's > >> just so much nicer than DCL. > >> > >> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled. > >> > >> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse > >> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they > >> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to > >> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective. > >> > >> Johnny > >> > > > > It’s been a lot of years, but doesn’t VMS DCL have command-line completion? > > (sorry for all the included text, I can’t seem to get this darn thing to > > select text to delete) > No, it don't. On VAX, there was a hack (from DECUS?) called DCLCOMPLETE > which sortof added this. But I don't think it was ever made to work on > any other hardware platform, it was sortof not working perfectly, and it > was definitely not something DEC ever included. > > Johnny Someone asked me a long time ago if I could port DCLCOMPLETE to Alpha as it is VAX MACRO, I started but never completed it. ^P
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mdd1qzek05q.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #8473 |
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already
> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm
> about to give, but anyway...
> On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS.
> Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich.
> As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that
> enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't
> very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things.
I have in personal collection an advertisement from a UK magazine of the
Scientific American sort for the PDP-6 which touts it as a large system
available both for batch and for timesharing operations for a large number
of users. It was clearly positioned to compete with IBM and the rest of the
Seven Dwarves. (I do not believe that they had contracted into the BUNCH by
the 2nd quarter of 1964.)
On those grounds I will claim that it was considered to be a mainframe. KO
clearly considered it to be such when he declared (following its failure in the
marketplace) that DEC would not compete with IBM.
> TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a much
> more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have some features
> and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more mainframe-oriented? What
> does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse from an execution point of
> view than VMS, requiring more resources to get the job done. But VMS isn't
> really any kind of batch oriented environment either...
DEC positioned the DEC-20 and TOPS-20 as *replacements* for Tops-10 on the
earlier generations of the PDP-10. If we can agree that DEC marketed those as
mainframe systems, then we have to accept that the -20 was also intended as a
mainframe.
> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here.
> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the
> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in
> TOPS-10 it's EXEC.
Most of the discussion of DCL which I see on comp.os.vms has to do with the
scripting features rather than interactive use, so that's what I tend to think
of when asked to compare the PDP-10 offerings to it.
On Tops-10, the command processor is part of the running monitor; TOPS-20 has
only a very very limited built-in command processor, called the Mini-EXEC, with
single character commands to G(et a monitor), S(tart the loaded monitor), and
possibly E(nter DDT on the monitor) but that might be a pipe dream.
I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals. Is DCL a separate program,
like the TOPS-20 EXEC? Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?
> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name
> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's
> just so much nicer than DCL.
You get no argument from me!
> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled.
> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse
> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they
> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to
> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective.
Amen.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| From | Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 07:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <7wilsq8cf1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> |
| In reply to | #8480 |
Rich Alderson wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Rich Alderson wrote: >>> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, >>> unlike VMS. >> >> As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is >> that enough to call it mainframe? > > It was clearly positioned to compete with IBM and the rest of the > Seven Dwarves. (I do not believe that they had contracted into the > BUNCH by the 2nd quarter of 1964.) On those grounds I will claim that > it was considered to be a mainframe. Some people will call any PDP-10 model a minicomputer with a perfectly straight face. When asked why they don't consider it a mainframe, the answer will kind of boil do to "it's not an IBM" (some hyperbole added here). On the other end of the scale you can now hear the PDP-11 classified as a mainframe. Obviosly incorrectly, right? But I think there's no stemming the tide on this. People apparently have widely different and conflicting ideas what a mainframe is. It seems a moot point to try to define it precisely. Let's just say it's "the biggest computer around, capable of serving many users". For DEC, that's the PDP-10 family.
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 00:33 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <875yoqi2ma.fsf@nightsong.com> |
| In reply to | #8482 |
Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes: > Some people will call any PDP-10 model a minicomputer with a perfectly > straight face. When asked why they don't consider it a mainframe... I remember hearing that DEC invented the term PDP (programmed data processor) because they were afraid that if they called their product a "computer", people would avoid it since real computers came only from IBM. Calling it a PDP made it a different type of product, easier to get past management because it didn't immediately evoke an IBM comparison. Once the PDP's became big enough to be considered real computers (i.e. the PDP-10), they changed the name PDP-10 to DECsystem-10.
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 17:03 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mddh7894dz4.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #8483 |
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
> Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes:
>> Some people will call any PDP-10 model a minicomputer with a perfectly
>> straight face. When asked why they don't consider it a mainframe...
> I remember hearing that DEC invented the term PDP (programmed data
> processor) because they were afraid that if they called their product a
> "computer", people would avoid it since real computers came only from
> IBM. Calling it a PDP made it a different type of product, easier to
> get past management because it didn't immediately evoke an IBM
> comparison.
It was not "IBM", but "GAO acquisition rules", which caused DEC to coin the
term "Programmed Data Processor" for their products, so that they could be sold
into individual departments rather than entire organizations in government
operated labs.
> Once the PDP's became big enough to be considered real computers
> (i.e. the PDP-10), they changed the name PDP-10 to DECsystem-10.
Mostly a Marketing Department decision...
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <CcpVJ.46114$mF2.31622@fx11.iad> |
| In reply to | #8480 |
Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
>Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>
>
>I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals. Is DCL a separate program,
>like the TOPS-20 EXEC? Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?
VMS is an odd beast in that respect. The VAX had a four privilege
rings (aside: interestingly enough, the relatively recent ARMv8
architecture also has four privilege rings (with a fifth coming soon)).
The kernel ran in the most privileged ring, Kernel Mode. RMS (mainly
derived from RSX-11, IIRC, and authored by Andy Goldstein (IIRC again))
ran in the next most privileged ring (Executive Mode). The Command
Interpreter (DCL) ran in the next ring (Supervisor Mode), and user
applications ran in the least privileged ring (User Mode).
As with most[*] ring-based privilege architectures, ring switches were
expensive and I believe once they went to Alpha, that architecture was
pretty much dead.
>
>> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name
>> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's
>> just so much nicer than DCL.
I didn't miss any of those features during the four years (1979-1983) that
I was doing systems programming on a four-vax cluster (with MA-780!), but
then I had been using TSS8.24 prior to that :-).
[*] most non-risc-based architectures, anyway. ARMv8 ring switches
while not free, can be quite efficient - far different from Intel
ring switches, for which three generations of ring-switch instructions
were created over the decades to make them more efficient.
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <t05d76$k1t$1@news.misty.com> |
| In reply to | #8484 |
On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote: > Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes: >> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes: >> > >> >> I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals. Is DCL a separate program, >> like the TOPS-20 EXEC? Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel? > > VMS is an odd beast in that respect. The VAX had a four privilege > rings (aside: interestingly enough, the relatively recent ARMv8 > architecture also has four privilege rings (with a fifth coming soon)). > > The kernel ran in the most privileged ring, Kernel Mode. RMS (mainly > derived from RSX-11, IIRC, and authored by Andy Goldstein (IIRC again)) > ran in the next most privileged ring (Executive Mode). The Command > Interpreter (DCL) ran in the next ring (Supervisor Mode), and user > applications ran in the least privileged ring (User Mode). > > As with most[*] ring-based privilege architectures, ring switches were > expensive and I believe once they went to Alpha, that architecture was > pretty much dead. People are always making the multiple processor modes a thing way bigger than it is. To comment more towards what Rich was thinking/asking, DCL is not a normal user program. It is possible to have other "shells" than DCL, which would live at the same level as DCL, but that almost was non-existant in real life. People instead have shells as programs running while DCL is still lurking in the background. So it's less flexible than in Unix or TOPS-20, where it's just a program like any other. RSX is in a way maybe the most weird of them all. In the goal to minimize memory and process resources, there is usually no program associated with your terminal when you are at the DCL prompt. Instead, it's all the responsibility of the terminal driver. Only when you've completed a line and hit enter will DCL (or MCR) be started for you, to process the line you typed. In VMS, DCL is there the whole time. >>> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name >>> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's >>> just so much nicer than DCL. > > I didn't miss any of those features during the four years (1979-1983) that > I was doing systems programming on a four-vax cluster (with MA-780!), but > then I had been using TSS8.24 prior to that :-). It's one of those things where if you never used it, you don't understand how much it means, and how much you'll miss it if it goes away. It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back to the dark ages. And TOPS-20 EXEC is *better* than tcsh or bash... Johnny
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <3ZqVJ.66921$4JN7.30690@fx05.iad> |
| In reply to | #8487 |
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes: >On 2022-03-07 16:07, Scott Lurndal wrote: >> Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes: >>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes: >>> > >It's very similar to how you'll feel today if someone throws /bin/sh at >you, and you are used to tcsh or bash. No filename completion, no line >editing, no interactive information, no nothing. It's like going back to >the dark ages. For what it's worth, I've been using ksh since 1989 and while it supports filename completion, I've never used it (since I use vi-style command line editing, it takes more than just the tab key to invoke completion).
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