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Groups > alt.sys.pdp10 > #8480
| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.sys.pdp10, alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 |
| Date | 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500 |
| Organization | PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC |
| Message-ID | <mdd1qzek05q.fsf@panix5.panix.com> (permalink) |
| References | (1 earlier) <wi4UJ.94351$Gojc.36264@fx99.iad> <20220303163807.e700772e93bf9d81a0d8646d@eircom.net> <5H6UJ.233887$Rza5.134368@fx47.iad> <mddbkymepz3.fsf@panix5.panix.com> <t02n22$aqg$1@news.misty.com> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already
> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm
> about to give, but anyway...
> On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS.
> Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich.
> As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that
> enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't
> very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things.
I have in personal collection an advertisement from a UK magazine of the
Scientific American sort for the PDP-6 which touts it as a large system
available both for batch and for timesharing operations for a large number
of users. It was clearly positioned to compete with IBM and the rest of the
Seven Dwarves. (I do not believe that they had contracted into the BUNCH by
the 2nd quarter of 1964.)
On those grounds I will claim that it was considered to be a mainframe. KO
clearly considered it to be such when he declared (following its failure in the
marketplace) that DEC would not compete with IBM.
> TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a much
> more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have some features
> and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more mainframe-oriented? What
> does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse from an execution point of
> view than VMS, requiring more resources to get the job done. But VMS isn't
> really any kind of batch oriented environment either...
DEC positioned the DEC-20 and TOPS-20 as *replacements* for Tops-10 on the
earlier generations of the PDP-10. If we can agree that DEC marketed those as
mainframe systems, then we have to accept that the -20 was also intended as a
mainframe.
> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here.
> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the
> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in
> TOPS-10 it's EXEC.
Most of the discussion of DCL which I see on comp.os.vms has to do with the
scripting features rather than interactive use, so that's what I tend to think
of when asked to compare the PDP-10 offerings to it.
On Tops-10, the command processor is part of the running monitor; TOPS-20 has
only a very very limited built-in command processor, called the Mini-EXEC, with
single character commands to G(et a monitor), S(tart the loaded monitor), and
possibly E(nter DDT on the monitor) but that might be a pipe dream.
I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals. Is DCL a separate program,
like the TOPS-20 EXEC? Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?
> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name
> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's
> just so much nicer than DCL.
You get no argument from me!
> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled.
> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse
> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they
> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to
> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective.
Amen.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 14:30 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 16:38 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 17:13 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:33 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 21:55 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-04 13:23 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:29 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-06 19:40 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:49 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-12-26 12:49 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-06 11:17 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:53 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-07 22:02 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:55 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-23 12:27 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-07 03:11 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-03-08 22:46 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:10 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> - 2022-03-18 13:36 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-07 07:11 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-07 00:33 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:03 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-07 11:47 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:19 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-08 10:08 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-08 10:54 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 18:52 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-08 17:34 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2022-03-09 00:46 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-09 06:48 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 12:07 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:11 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-09 20:10 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-13 22:20 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-16 19:11 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-09 14:47 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Eric Swenson <eric@swenson.org> - 2022-03-11 10:25 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Sid Maxwell <srmaxwell3@gmail.com> - 2022-03-11 09:14 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "P.Lj" <peter.ljungberg.sui@gmail.com> - 2022-03-18 13:41 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-08 19:47 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-09 01:03 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:34 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 18:59 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 22:00 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2022-03-08 21:20 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-09 11:13 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 12:13 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2022-03-11 13:56 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-12 01:12 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Phil Budne <phil.budne@gmail.com> - 2022-03-12 11:40 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Phil Budne <phil.budne@gmail.com> - 2022-03-12 11:43 -0800
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2022-03-12 22:01 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:18 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:37 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 14:53 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 20:43 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-07 19:52 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:18 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:33 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:58 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 00:06 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 15:22 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 11:17 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-08 21:09 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 21:33 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:24 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:24 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 21:06 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:47 -0500
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 10:48 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:03 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 19:52 -0600
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2022-03-08 04:13 +0000
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:32 +0100
Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 gah4 <gah4@u.washington.edu> - 2022-03-08 23:02 -0800
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