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How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet

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  How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-13 06:00 +0000
    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-13 15:34 +0200
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-13 16:06 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Vladimir <niemda@me.com> - 2016-09-13 20:47 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-14 00:20 +0200
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:41 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-09-14 00:27 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:41 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-14 07:35 +0100
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-14 07:54 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-09-15 11:53 +0100
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:45 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:51 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:30 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 18:43 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 13:04 -0700
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 20:23 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:31 -0700
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-15 09:49 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:33 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-19 19:22 +0200
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:30 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 13:16 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 04:52 +0000
    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-09-14 00:24 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:40 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet bruce <bruce@invalid.dyndns.tv.invalid> - 2016-09-14 18:41 -0400
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:56 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet bruce <bruce@invalid.dyndns.tv.invalid> - 2016-09-17 16:12 -0400
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> - 2016-09-17 19:04 -0400
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 02:30 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-17 22:54 -0400
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> - 2016-09-15 01:04 -0400
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 23:17 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 23:36 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 22:22 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 06:17 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 06:32 +0000
                  Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-17 10:08 -0400
                    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-09-17 16:13 +0200
                    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
                      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:49 +0000
                        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 04:00 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 02:00 +0000

Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]

#38898

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 22:22:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Notice that I said router, not client radio, access point, or some
> unspecified software running on your unspecified smartphone.  The
> "hardware clone" feature found in consumer router firmware only
> changes the WAN port MAC address.

Hi Jeff,
I do remember almost everything that you've ever said, that I understood.

And, while most people *think* you can clone the LAN ports "of the router",
it's not so easy (as you are explaining). Basically, for "our" purposes,
changing the WiFi (2.4GHz or 5GHz) Access Point MAC address can't easily be
done on a typical home router even though you are "admin" on that router.

I have no idea if *that* restriction applies to a *cell phone* so I will
read on ...

> Like a PC or laptop allows anyone to
> change the MAC address of its ethernet port or wireless device, you
> *can* change the MAC address of a software based smartphone access point
> if you have root access.

Ooooooh.... this is new. Interesting too... Please do go on... 

> However, that's for a normal router that hasn't been hacked or hasn't had
> the firmware replaced.  

Ok. Fair enough. So you're saying that the Access Point (5Ghz and 2.4GHz)
MAC address is not easy to change on a router that doesn't have the
firmware replaced with custom softwqare.

> If you have root and shell access, you can
> just use ifconfig to change the MAC address of any addressable port.
> For example, in DD-WRT:
>   ifconfig wlan0 down
>   ifconfig wlan0 hw ether 11:22:33:44:55:66
>   ifconfig wlan0 up

I do this on Linux daily (I have a script) - so - are you saying that if
you had root access to an iOS or Android cellhone or if you have "special"
more-than-root access on a router, that you *can* easily change the MAC
address that is associated with the cellphone's SSID access point?

> If you root it, you
> can again use ifconfig to change the MAC address of any port.
> <http://www.gohacking.com/spoof-mac-address-on-android-phones/>

OK. SO is this the summary?
1. ROUTER
a. You have root access on the router, but you still can't change the
Access Point MAC address on most consumer router firmware
b. However, if you load *special* router firmware, you *can* change the
Access Point MAC address <=== Is that what you're saying?

2. CELLPHONE
a. You do not have root access on either an iOS or Android cellphone unless
you jailbrake or root it, so you can't change the MAC address of the access
point of a non-rooted (aka non jailbroken) iOS or Android device.
b. However, if you jailbreak (or root) the iOS or Android device, you *can*
change the access point MAC address (which is what Google harvests).
 
> If you want to drive Google partly nuts, just change your smartphone
> wi-fi MAC address at irregular intervals.  That won't stop them from
> tracking you by some of the other stuff they are harvesting from your
> phone, but it's a good start.

We already know there is one way to prevent them from *harvesting* an
access point MAC address - and there is another (different) way to prevent
Google from *saving* your harvested access point MAC address - and there is
yet another way to (do something) with respect to Microsoft harvesting of
your access point MAC address:

1. If you *hide* the access point SSID broadcast, poorly configured Android
devices will *not* send your access point MAC address to Google.
2. If you append *_nomac* to the end of your access point SSID, then Google
promises to remove your access point from their database.
3. If you insert "_optout", then Microsoft will leave you alone (somehow)

> Gotta stop typing for a day.  I tried to start a chain saw today and
> now right wrist is swollen.

Ouch. I use a chain saw a *lot* as I create paths that go for miles and
miles and miles, so I have to cut a lot of dead wood to clear it away. My
Stihl is pretty good about starting up, but still - it's a pull on the
wrist.

Please heal. We need your acumen on her, as there's precious little to go
around.

Looking at the reference for spoofing the MAC on Android & iOS, it seems
these are the requirements for Spoofing the Access Point MAC Address:
a. Rooted Android Phone
b. BusyBox app installed on your phone
c. Once BusyBox is installed, you need to install Terminal app

Here's how to do it manually (according to that reference):
$ su 
$ busybox iplink show eth0 
(This will show your current MAC address, just for your confirmation)
$ busybox ifconfig eth0 hw ether DE:AD:BE:EF:CA:FE 

You have now spoofed your MAC address successfully. To check for the change
enter the following command again:
$ busybox iplink show eth0 

Here are two apps that do it for you (according to Google Play):

Wifi Mac Changer by Osama Abukmail 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wireless.macchanger&hl=en

MacMan by Maxters 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.maxters.droid.macman&hl=en

Do you think the process to spoof the Access Point MAC address is similar
for jailbroken iOS phones?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38899

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 06:17:39 +0000 (UTC), Horace Algier wrote:

> Here are two apps that do it for you (according to Google Play):
> 
> Wifi Mac Changer by Osama Abukmail 
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wireless.macchanger&hl=en
> 
> MacMan by Maxters 
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.maxters.droid.macman&hl=en
> 
> Do you think the process to spoof the Access Point MAC address is similar
> for jailbroken iOS phones?

Googling, it seems the iOS process is (far) more complex than is Android
for spoofing the MAC address of the access point (because Apple keeps
breaking it with every new OS release, apparently).

So, in essence, you can't spoof the access point MAC address on any recent
iOS version...
https://gist.github.com/pwnsdx/b39e961b6d719bd2aab0

But, if you try, these are the minimum requirements:
a. A jailbroken iOS device
b. MobileTerminal package or any SSH terminal to execute commands on the
iOS device
c. developer-cmds & network-cmds packages (available on Cydia).

But the problem is that Apple prevents you from doing this (as Apple
prevents you from doing most things you can do on all other platforms).

Details here:
http://best-mac-tips.com/2014/08/14/changing-your-mac-address-on-ios-iphone-ipad/
Where the author concludes: 
 "So, my best-mac-tip when it comes to spoofing your MAC address on an iOS
device is simply that you can┤. This lack of user control (i.e.
customisation) is just one of the many reasons why I use Android phones and
tablets."

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#38909

In article <nrio22$1l6c$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Horace Algier
<horatio@horatio.net> wrote:

> > Do you think the process to spoof the Access Point MAC address is similar
> > for jailbroken iOS phones?
> 
> Googling, it seems the iOS process is (far) more complex than is Android
> for spoofing the MAC address of the access point (because Apple keeps
> breaking it with every new OS release, apparently).

apple doesn't break stuff with every new release. 

nevertheless, ios has had mac address randomization built into the os
since ios 8, which occurs in some situations (it can't be all for
obvious reasons that you probably don't understand).

you've been told this before and you continue to ignore it so you can
lie.

<http://photos.appleinsidercdn.com/gallery/9525-1286-BpmmSGjIUAA34adpng-
large-l.png>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38910

nospam wrote:

> In article <nrio22$1l6c$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Horace Algier
> <horatio@horatio.net> wrote:
> 
>> > Do you think the process to spoof the Access Point MAC address is
>> > similar for jailbroken iOS phones?
>> 
>> Googling, it seems the iOS process is (far) more complex than is Android
>> for spoofing the MAC address of the access point (because Apple keeps
>> breaking it with every new OS release, apparently).
> 
> apple doesn't break stuff with every new release.

It does. I have 2 apple machines myself. And I know several apple users who 
are afraid of updating the OS. Because they have made the experience that 
all too often something does not work anymore

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38942

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 10:08:20 -0400, nospam wrote:

> nevertheless, ios has had mac address randomization built into the os
> since ios 8

This is an interesting paper...
http://papers.mathyvanhoef.com/asiaccs2016.pdf

Why MAC Address Randomization is not Enough: An Analysis of Wi-Fi Network
Discovery Mechanisms

"We present two attacks that reveal the real MAC address of a device, even
if MAC address randomization is used.

In the first one, we create fake hot spots to induce clients to connect
using their real MAC address.  The second technique relies on the new
802.11u standard, commonly referred to as Hotspot 2.0, where we show that
Linux and Windows send Access Network Query Protocol (ANQP) requests using
their real MAC address. ... 

We show that *all* implementations of MAC address randomization fail to
provide adequate privacy."

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38945

On Sun, 18 Sep 2016 03:43:26 +0000 (UTC), Horace Algier wrote:

> This is an interesting paper...
> http://papers.mathyvanhoef.com/asiaccs2016.pdf
> 
> Why MAC Address Randomization is not Enough: An Analysis of Wi-Fi Network
> Discovery Mechanisms
> 
> "We present two attacks that reveal the real MAC address of a device, even
> if MAC address randomization is used.

It's interesting that all the operating systems implement the MAC address
reandomization differently ... as outlined in that paper ... 

2.1.1 iOS
Apple added MAC address randomization to its devices
starting from iOS 8 [42]. In iOS 8, randomized addresses are
only used while unassociated and in sleep mode [18]. iOS 9
was extended to also use randomization in what Apples calls
location and auto-join scans [42]. Based on our own experiments,
this means that randomization is now also used when
the device is active, i.e., when the screen is turned on.

2.1.2 Android
Android 6.0 uses randomization for background scans if
the driver and hardware support it [2]. Unfortunately, we
did not have a device to test and verify this in practice.
Although Android versions before 6.0 do not support randomization,
several applications supporting this feature have
been released [9, 3]. Common features of those applications
are a periodical update of the MAC address to a random
value, but also the manual modication of this address by
the user. Note that those applications require root privilege
to operate, which reduce their impact for the average user.

2.1.4 Linux
Linux added support forMAC address randomization during
network scans in kernel version 3.18. The address should
be randomized for each scan iteration [24]. Drivers must be
updated to support this feature. The mvm module of the
iwlwifi driver supports randomization since kernel 3.18.
The brcmfmac driver added support for this in kernel 4.5.
The privacy-oriented Linux distribution Tails [1] does not
support MAC address randomization during network scans.
Instead, it generates a (new) random MAC address at boot.
This random address keeps the rst 3 bytes of the original
address, the Organization Unique Identier (OUI), and
only randomizes the last three bytes. While not as optimal
as periodical address changes, it does prevent tracking over
extended periods of time.

2.1.3 Windows
Microsoft supports randomization since Windows 10 [45].
Enabling randomization is possible if the hardware and driver
support it. Interestingly, not only does Windows use random
addresses for probe requests, it also uses a random address
when connecting to a network. To assure the client always
uses the same address when connecting to a particular network,
a per-network address is calculated as follows [27, 28]:
addr = SHA-256(SSID; macaddr; connId; secret)[:6] (1)
Here SSID is the name of the network, macaddr the original
MAC address, and connId a parameter that changes
if the user removes (and re-adds) the network to its preferred
network list. The secret parameter is a 256-bits cryptographic
random number generated during system initialization,
unique per interface, and kept the same across reboots
[28]. Bits in the most signicant byte of addr are set
so it becomes a locally administered, unicast address. This
hash construction is similar to the generation of IPv6 interface
identiers as proposed in RFC 7217 [21]. It assures that
systems relying on xed MAC addresses continue to work as
expected, e.g., when authentication is performed based on
the MAC address. Users can also manually instruct the OS
to daily update the per-network address randomly.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38946

On Sun, 18 Sep 2016 03:49:37 +0000 (UTC), Horace Algier wrote:

> It's interesting that all the operating systems implement the MAC address
> reandomization differently ... as outlined in that paper ...

The cut and paste from PDF to newsagent went awry, so I'll use VIM instead
for the cut and paste from PDF ... 

http://papers.mathyvanhoef.com/asiaccs2016.pdf

2.1.4 Linux
Linux added support forMAC address randomization during
network scans in kernel version 3.18. The address should
be randomized for each scan iteration [24]. Drivers must be
updated to support this feature. The mvm module of the
iwlwifi driver supports randomization since kernel 3.18.
The brcmfmac driver added support for this in kernel 4.5.
The privacy-oriented Linux distribution Tails [1] does not
support MAC address randomization during network scans.
Instead, it generates a (new) random MAC address at boot.
This random address keeps the first 3 bytes of the original
address, the Organization Unique Identier (OUI), and
only randomizes the last three bytes. While not as optimal
as periodical address changes, it does prevent tracking over
extended periods of time

2.1.2 Android
Android 6.0 uses randomization for background scans if
the driver and hardware support it [2]. Unfortunately, we
did not have a device to test and verify this in practice.
Although Android versions before 6.0 do not support randomization,
several applications supporting this feature have
been released [9, 3]. Common features of those applications
are a periodical update of the MAC address to a random
value, but also the manual modification of this address by
the user. Note that those applications require root privilege
to operate, which reduce their impact for the average user.

2.1.1 iOS
Apple added MAC address randomization to its devices
starting from iOS 8 [42]. In iOS 8, randomized addresses are
only used while unassociated and in sleep mode [18]. iOS 9
was extended to also use randomization in what Apples calls
location and auto-join scans [42]. Based on our own experiments,
this means that randomization is now also used when
the device is active, i.e., when the screen is turned on.

2.1.3 Windows
Microsoft supports randomization since Windows 10 [45].
Enabling randomization is possible if the hardware and driver
support it. Interestingly, not only does Windows use random
addresses for probe requests, it also uses a random address
when connecting to a network. To assure the client always
uses the same address when connecting to a particular network,
a per-network address is calculated as follows [27, 28]:
addr = SHA-256(SSID; macaddr; connId; secret)[:6] (1)
Here SSID is the name of the network, macaddr the original
MAC address, and connId a parameter that changes
if the user removes (and re-adds) the network to its preferred
network list. The secret parameter is a 256-bits cryptographic
random number generated during system initialization,
unique per interface, and kept the same across reboots
[28]. Bits in the most significant byte of addr are set
so it becomes a locally administered, unicast address. This
hash construction is similar to the generation of IPv6 interface
identifiers as proposed in RFC 7217 [21]. It assures that
systems relying on fixed MAC addresses continue to work as
expected, e.g., when authentication is performed based on
the MAC address. Users can also manually instruct the OS
to daily update the per-network address randomly

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#38891

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 01:04:30 -0400, Winston wrote:

> (B)SSID aside, all cellphones are tracked to the level of "nearest
> cellphone tower" whenever they're on.  If they're within range of more
> than one tower, the range of possible locations is greatly reduced.

I'm *not* asking about cellphone triangulation.
That's totally different.

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#38892

On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 01:04:30 -0400, Winston wrote:

> You speak about getting a location via Google even though you enter a
> fake signal strength.  I don't see how that can work.  If you say a
> signal is really strong, that indicates you're close.  If you say the
> signal is weak, you're further away.  Choose any combination of places
> around the world and make up whatever signal strengths you like, and you
> probably can get a result anywhere on Earth, even if those numbers are
> impossible in practice.


Google added the need for the *second* BSSID for security reasons, so that
you'd actually have to know *both* BSSIDs in order to do a lookup.

Of course, if you're *at* the location, you can *easily* obtain two BSSIDs
and their relative signal strength, so that's why Google gives any app that
asks, the GPS coordinates if you give the Google database three things:
1. BSSID 1
2. BSSID 2
3. Signal Strength

Again, if you are actually at that point, then it would be trivial for you
to have the BSSIDs, and the signal strength.

However, if you're faking it, then you have to fake the signal strength.

The way to fake the signal strength is to give both BSSIDs the same (or
similar) signal strength. (That means they're together.)

That way, you're talling Google that *you see* both access points together.

One of two things will happen, if I understand the "system" (and assuming
the hubby's ios or Android cellphone is one of the access points and the
other access point is the Starbucks nearest his girlfriend):

a. If the two access points *are* together, then Google will gladly report
back the GPS coordinates. BINGO! That's your test that hubby is at the
Starbucks over by his girlfriend's home!

b. If the two access points are *not* together, then Google will NOT report
back the GPS coordinates.

Pretty simple if you ask me.
This only works though, if the iOS or Android cellphone is being betrayed
by other poorly configured Android devices.

So that's why I ask under what circumstances does an iOS or Android
cellphone get its SSID/BSSID/SS and GPS position reported to the Google
database?

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