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Networking problem trying to set up CUPS

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  Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2023-02-20 19:29 -0400
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2023-02-21 02:55 +0000
      Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood <phaywood@alphalink.com.au> - 2023-02-22 12:32 +1100
        Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2023-02-22 13:28 +0000
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> - 2023-02-21 06:34 +0000
      Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2023-03-05 19:14 -0400
        Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> - 2023-03-06 06:54 +0000
          Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2023-03-08 01:25 -0400
            Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> - 2023-03-08 20:48 +0000
              Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem... Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2023-03-11 03:24 -0400
                Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem... Martin Schöön <martin.schoon@gmail.com> - 2023-03-11 09:25 +0000
                Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem... Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> - 2023-03-11 10:13 +0000
                  Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem... maus <maus@mail.com> - 2023-03-11 11:30 +0000
                    Re: Latex Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-12 03:52 +0000
                      Re: Latex maus <maus@mail.com> - 2023-03-12 08:59 +0000
                      Re: Latex Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> - 2023-03-12 11:04 +0000
                        Re: Latex Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-12 17:10 +0000
                          Re: Latex Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-12 17:48 +0000
                          Re: Latex Martin Schöön <martin.schoon@gmail.com> - 2023-03-12 20:42 +0000
                            Re: Latex Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-12 21:17 +0000
                              Re: Latex Martin Schöön <martin.schoon@gmail.com> - 2023-03-13 20:08 +0000
                        Re: Latex Jim Diamond <JimDiamond@ns.sympatico.ca> - 2023-03-13 21:14 -0300
                          Re: Latex Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> - 2023-03-15 06:26 +0000
                            Re: Latex Jim Diamond <JimDiamond@jdvb.ca> - 2023-03-20 16:05 -0300
                      Re: Latex Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2023-03-13 00:54 -0300
                Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem... Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2023-03-11 14:27 +0000
                Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem... Jim Diamond <JimDiamond@ns.sympatico.ca> - 2023-03-13 21:21 -0300
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-02-21 07:56 +0000
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> - 2023-02-21 14:47 +0100
      Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-02-21 21:29 +0000
        Sendmaail (WAS: Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS) Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2023-02-21 19:50 -0400
          Re: Sendmaail (WAS: Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS) Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2023-02-21 21:27 -0700
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-02-21 21:19 +0000
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Giovanni <lsodgf0@home.net.it> - 2023-02-22 12:59 +0100
    Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood <phaywood@alphalink.com.au> - 2023-02-22 13:00 +1100

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#34052 — Networking problem trying to set up CUPS

Almost everything is working on my 15.0 32 bit setup except printing.
I gave up on postfix and reverted with complete success to sendmail.
Now venturing to migrate from lprng to CUPS.

Before I've even read how to start, there seems to be something I
don't understand about inetd and  LAN networking.


Cups man page says:

   WHERE DO I BEGIN?

       The easiest way to start is by using the web interface to
       configure your printer. Go to "http://localhost:631" and choose
       the Administration tab at the top of the page.

Okay, but I want to access that (on enoch, the new 15 install box)
from bogus, my current 14.2 main machine.  Try http://enoch:631.

   The connection was refused when attempting to contact enoch:631

I haven't started ip_tables yet so no firewall.

cupsd is running:

    enoch% pgrep cupsd
    1055

I've tried changing /etc/cups/cupsd.conf and /etc/inetd.conf in
various ways (and restarting inetd or cupsd after any change) with no
improvements.

cupsd.conf:

   # Only listen for connections from the local machine.
   Listen localhost:631
   Listen /var/run/cups/cups.sock

   # mds -- Also listen for conns from bogus; 
     Listen 192.168.0.15:631


Using any of ip address (above), hostname (bogus) or *  gives same
non-result.  Moreover, the cupsd.conf directive to listen doesn't show
up in lsof:

enoch-root$ lsof -i:631 -sTCP:LISTEN

COMMAND  PID USER   FD   TYPE DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME
cupsd   1055 root    5u  IPv6  32275      0t0  TCP localhost:ipp (LISTEN)
cupsd   1055 root    6u  IPv4  32276      0t0  TCP localhost:ipp (LISTEN)

What about inetd?  Adding to /etc/inetd.conf a line like:

  ipp  stream  tcp  nowait  root   /usr/sbin/tcpd  /usr/sbin/cupsd

doesn't make any difference.

It seems I'm trying to do something that can't be done.  Or that needs
a magic incantation I don't know about.  Can I access cupsd:631 on
enoch from bogus over the LAN?  Or not?

I have to go make ginger chicken.

TIA for any help.








   


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#34053

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>       The easiest way to start is by using the web interface to
>       configure your printer. Go to "http://localhost:631" and choose
>       the Administration tab at the top of the page.
> 
> Okay, but I want to access that (on enoch, the new 15 install box)
> from bogus, my current 14.2 main machine.  Try http://enoch:631.
> 
>   The connection was refused when attempting to contact enoch:631

Expected, the cups default is to only listen for connections on the 
loopback interface (as a security precation).

> cupsd.conf:
> 
>   # Only listen for connections from the local machine.
>   Listen localhost:631
>   Listen /var/run/cups/cups.sock
> 
>   # mds -- Also listen for conns from bogus; 
>     Listen 192.168.0.15:631

Per the docs, you should change the "Listen localhost:631" line to 
"Listen *:631" and cupsd should then also listen to connections on your 
ethernet interface as well.  And, what is the IP address you have on 
the second Listen?  The IP that goes there would need to be the IP of 
the machine the cupsd was running on, not the IP the connections would 
be coming from.

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#34063

Groovy hepcat Rich was jivin' in alt.os.linux.slackware on Tue, 21 Feb
2023 01:55 pm. It's a cool scene! Dig it.

> ethernet interface as well.  And, what is the IP address you have on
> the second Listen?  The IP that goes there would need to be the IP of
> the machine the cupsd was running on, not the IP the connections would
> be coming from.

  Technically, it's the IP address of the /interface/, not the whole
machine. The computer doesn't have an address; the network interface
does.

-- 


----- Dig the NEW and IMPROVED news sig!! -----


-------------- Shaggy was here! ---------------
              Ain't I'm a dawg!!

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#34064

Peter 'Shaggy' Haywood <phaywood@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
> Groovy hepcat Rich was jivin' in alt.os.linux.slackware on Tue, 21 Feb
> 2023 01:55 pm. It's a cool scene! Dig it.
> 
>> ethernet interface as well.  And, what is the IP address you have on
>> the second Listen?  The IP that goes there would need to be the IP of
>> the machine the cupsd was running on, not the IP the connections would
>> be coming from.
> 
>  Technically, it's the IP address of the /interface/, not the whole
> machine. The computer doesn't have an address; the network interface
> does.

While true, I doubt the OP has a multi-interface machine such that the 
distinction would have done any good besides add to his confusion.

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#34054

On Mon, 20 Feb 2023 19:29:57 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
> I gave up on postfix and reverted with complete success to sendmail.
> Now venturing to migrate from lprng to CUPS.

Sorry I can't answer any cups related question. Like you I am old school 
and didn't even try postfix on 15.0. Instead I simply kept running 
sendmail and I installed LPRng from third party sources as it no longer 
is included in Slackware even in /extra.

regards Henrik

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#34100 — Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS

Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> writes:

> On Mon, 20 Feb 2023 19:29:57 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> I gave up on postfix and reverted with complete success to sendmail.
>> Now venturing to migrate from lprng to CUPS.
> 
> Sorry I can't answer any cups related question. Like you I am old school 
> and didn't even try postfix on 15.0. Instead I simply kept running 
> sendmail and I installed LPRng from third party sources as it no longer 
> is included in Slackware even in /extra.

Thanks for the encouragement to believe lprng would work with 15.0.

But here's a thing: 

After dumping CUPS and installing lprng-3.8.28-i486-1.tgz from a
previous Slackware release package, it complained:

   libssl.so.0    not found
   libcrypto.so.0 not found

to which I responded:

     ln -s /usr/lib/libssl.so.1.1      /usr/lib/libssl.so.0      (15.0)
     ln -s /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.1.1   /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.0   (15.0)

and it seems to be working fine.  I did the same thing with 14.2 with
no problems so far:

     ln -s /lib/libssl.so.1.0.0    /lib/libssl.so.0              (14.2)
     ln -s /lib/libcrypto.so.1.0.0 /lib/libcrypto.so.0           (14.2)

Is this likely to cause unexpected problems down the road? (I've had
mixed results in the past with this sort of ill-informed lib hack.)

Should I be looking for an lprng release newer thann 3.8.28 that
doesn't have xx.so.0 libs hard-coded?  Where you found yours,
perhaps? 

The only reason I was messing with CUPS was that, on 14.2, Seamonkey
would *only* "print to file" until you wrote what I would never have
discovered on my own (TYVM):

> It used to be possible to print with firefox by having a file
> /etc/gtk-2.0/gtkrc with the following contents:
> 
> -8<--------------
> gtk-print-backends = "lpr,file"
> -8<--------------

which fixed me right up but then Giovanni <lsodgf0@home.net.it>
wrote:

> If I recall correctly that hack stopped working starting on firefox 
> version 50 and later.

I needn't have bothered.  Seamonky 2.53.10.2  recognizes and offerrs
lpr as a print option without any gtk hack and it works with lpr(1).

Tnx,
-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#34101 — Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS

On Sun, 05 Mar 2023 19:14:03 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
> After dumping CUPS and installing lprng-3.8.28-i486-1.tgz from a
> previous Slackware release package, it complained:
> 
>    libssl.so.0    not found libcrypto.so.0 not found
> 
> to which I responded:
> 
>      ln -s /usr/lib/libssl.so.1.1      /usr/lib/libssl.so.0      (15.0)
>      ln -s /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.1.1   /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.0   (15.0)
> 
> and it seems to be working fine.  I did the same thing with 14.2 with no
> problems so far:
> 
>      ln -s /lib/libssl.so.1.0.0    /lib/libssl.so.0              (14.2)
>      ln -s /lib/libcrypto.so.1.0.0 /lib/libcrypto.so.0           (14.2)
> 
> Is this likely to cause unexpected problems down the road? (I've had
> mixed results in the past with this sort of ill-informed lib hack.)

I can't say if that dynamic library symlinking is going to cause trouble. 
On my 15.0 system I have compiled LPRng from source, downloaded the 
source from https://lprng.sourceforge.net/download.html
 
> Should I be looking for an lprng release newer thann 3.8.28 that doesn't
> have xx.so.0 libs hard-coded?  Where you found yours, perhaps?

The version I got from sourceforge was 3.8.C, that file seems to be from 
2012 but seems newer than 3.8.28 as it mentions 3.8.32 in the ChangeLog.

Thanks for the tip about SeaMonkey! It is slightly annoying having to 
print to file with FireFox.

regards Henrik

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#34106 — Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS

Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> writes:

> On Sun, 05 Mar 2023 19:14:03 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>>  ln -s /usr/lib/libssl.so.1.1      /usr/lib/libssl.so.0      (15.0)
>>  ln -s /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.1.1   /usr/lib/libcrypto.so.0   (15.0)
>> 
>> and it seems to be working fine.
>>
>> Is this likely to cause unexpected problems down the road? 
> 
> I can't say if that dynamic library symlinking is going to cause trouble. 
> On my 15.0 system I have compiled LPRng from source, downloaded the 
> source from https://lprng.sourceforge.net/download.html
>  
>> Should I be looking for an lprng release newer thann 3.8.28 that doesn't
>> have xx.so.0 libs hard-coded?  Where you found yours, perhaps?
> 
> The version I got from sourceforge was 3.8.C, that file seems to be from 
> 2012 but seems newer than 3.8.28 as it mentions 3.8.32 in the ChangeLog.

Downloaded and unpacked 3.8.C.  I see ChangeLog has:

   2011-10-26 brl drop --with-ssl, use autoconf macros to look for libssl
   2008-03-29 brl really only link programs needing it to ssl libraries

so they've apparently changed how libssl is referenced somehow.
("somehow" because configure and automake are above my pay grade. :-)

If the softlink lib hacks cause a problem -- unlikely because only old
versions of anything would explicitly reference an old lib -- I can
compile 3.8.C, install it & delete the links.

Tnx for the pointer.

> Thanks for the tip about SeaMonkey! It is slightly annoying having to 
> print to file with FireFox.

Yes.  I don't have a word processor.  On the very rare occasions that I
need to print a business letter, I compose it in simple HTML and print
from the browser.  One more small irritation eliminated, eh?  All good.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#34114 — Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem trying to set up CUPS

On Wed, 08 Mar 2023 01:25:46 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
> I don't have a word processor.  On the very rare occasions that I
> need to print a business letter, I compose it in simple HTML and print
> from the browser.  One more small irritation eliminated, eh?  All good.

HTML might work, but if you want really nice letters you should learn 
latex!

I have written some scripts using dialogs to input data about receiver 
and what to pay for and then the script generates latex code which is 
processed to a pdf file with the invoice.

regards Henrik

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#34124 — Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem...

Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> writes:

> On Wed, 08 Mar 2023 01:25:46 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> I don't have a word processor.  On the very rare occasions that I
>> need to print a business letter, I compose it in simple HTML and print
>> from the browser.
> 
> HTML might work, but if you want really nice letters you should learn 
> latex!

Ha! Until ca. '92 I used -- I forget, was it WordStar? -- a markup
word processor on CP/M with a dot matrix printer, business letters,
blacksmithing newsletter, assorted.  So when I was learning DOS, C,
Unix, Emacs and other new stuff around then, I actually bought
Knuth's TEXbook because I'd been told it was a markup system -- "you
should learn latex!" as you say.

But when I went to my shiny new Linux system a few years later, it had
Latex or Tetex or something that was a dialect of TEX.  I bumbled
about a bit but never found a tutorial that was simple enough to just,
yew kno, bang out a nice page.  All seemed too much like learning a
new programming language (yeah, I know what a macro is but...)  to
become a pro compositor.

With little printing to do and many other things to occupy my time, I
slacked off and never learned to use it.  Still have Knuth's book.

Is there an online tutorial PDF for Latex that's simple-minded?  I'm
never going to compose a glossy magazine page, advanced scientific
paper or legal brief and my ageing brain isn't going to master a mass
of arcana to be used, say, once a quarter.

> I have written some scripts using dialogs to input data about receiver 
> and what to pay for and then the script generates latex code which is 
> processed to a pdf file with the invoice.

All good.  I'm trying to imagine needing that....nope. :-)

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#34125 — Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem...

Den 2023-03-11 skrev Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>:
>
> Is there an online tutorial PDF for Latex that's simple-minded?  I'm
> never going to compose a glossy magazine page, advanced scientific
> paper or legal brief and my ageing brain isn't going to master a mass
> of arcana to be used, say, once a quarter.
>
I have been using LaTeX since the early 90s so I am not the best person
to answer this as I don't remember how it was to learn LaTeX. I think
we had a book by Leslie Lamport and it was not a heavy read. Also,
I think there was a basic sample document show casing the basics. I
don't seem to be able to locate any of that quickly on the internet
right now -- maybe dated.

However, this might be useful: https://www.andy-roberts.net/latex/

Disclaimer: I have not studied this web site myself.

And, of course: https://www.latex-project.org

Then you could always cheat and use LyX: https://www.lyx.org

/Martin

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#34126 — Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem...

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 03:24:07 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Ha! Until ca. '92 I used -- I forget, was it WordStar? -- a markup word
> processor on CP/M with a dot matrix printer, business letters,
> blacksmithing newsletter, assorted. 

Been there, done that... WordStar was mainly intended to be used as a 
word processor for writing letters formatted as well as they could be 
back at the time when they were written on matrix printers with a fixed 
font with up to 80 characters on each line. WordStar automatically added 
some spaces to the documents so both the left and right margins became 
aligned which made the documents look really impressive back then.

I also used WordStar as an editor for programming Basic on my CP/M 
system. Some years later, when I on university were supposed to use emacs 
for programming I initially wanted to remap the keys in emacs to the way 
they were used in WordStar, but I soon dropped that idea and learned 
emacs instead.

> Is there an online tutorial PDF for Latex that's simple-minded?

For that quick tutorial purpose I have used 
http://www.ddg.lth.se/perf/handledning/handledning.pdf
which has been great for me, but might be less useful for you as it is 
written in swedish.

For reference I have used https://icl.utk.edu/~mgates3/docs/latex.pdf but 
it is more of a reference document than a tutorial.

Some googling seem to point at some tutorial pages about Latex, but those 
are web pages rather than pdf and I can't say how good they are as I 
haven't used them myself.


regards Henrik

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#34128 — Re: Latex Re: Tnx Re: Ping Henrik Re: Networking problem...

On 2023-03-11, Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 03:24:07 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> Ha! Until ca. '92 I used -- I forget, was it WordStar? -- a markup word
>> processor on CP/M with a dot matrix printer, business letters,
>> blacksmithing newsletter, assorted. 
>
> Been there, done that... WordStar was mainly intended to be used as a 
> word processor for writing letters formatted as well as they could be 
> back at the time when they were written on matrix printers with a fixed 
> font with up to 80 characters on each line. WordStar automatically added 
> some spaces to the documents so both the left and right margins became 
> aligned which made the documents look really impressive back then.
>
> I also used WordStar as an editor for programming Basic on my CP/M 
> system. Some years later, when I on university were supposed to use emacs 
> for programming I initially wanted to remap the keys in emacs to the way 
> they were used in WordStar, but I soon dropped that idea and learned 
> emacs instead.
>
>> Is there an online tutorial PDF for Latex that's simple-minded?
>
> For that quick tutorial purpose I have used 
> http://www.ddg.lth.se/perf/handledning/handledning.pdf
> which has been great for me, but might be less useful for you as it is 
> written in swedish.
>
> For reference I have used https://icl.utk.edu/~mgates3/docs/latex.pdf but 
> it is more of a reference document than a tutorial.
>
> Some googling seem to point at some tutorial pages about Latex, but those 
> are web pages rather than pdf and I can't say how good they are as I 
> haven't used them myself.
>
>
> regards Henrik

Lamport's book on latex is all you will ever need.

A lot of other books are about idiots variations,  as when a bad teacher
tells  his pupils, "The rest is obvious."

using vim as editor,  which can take a little learning.

The sacred words are, "Keep It Simple, Stupid"

I have a laser  printer, and I am thinking of  reverting to a
dot-matrix. KISS.


-- 
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

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#34130 — Re: Latex

maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> Lamport's book on latex is all you will ever need.

It would be good if the books criticized the design of TeX,
but regrettably nobody dares to criticize what they teach to newbies.
One of the issues is that TeX does not come from the UNIX world,
but from TOPS-20, and that makes the design of TeX quite monolythic.
Over the time people have written tools to interact with TeX
and LaTeX in a UNIX-like way.

I would not rely on the default tools latex or pdflatex (which is
what the tutorials tell newbies to do), but instead would use
latexmk (which is part of the official TeXlive distribution).

latexmk makes compiling documents much nicer.  I really hate being
thrown into interactive mode each time there is an error in the
document (and when you are a newbie you make a lot of errors).

Also, another way TeX deviates from the UNIX way of doing things is
that there is no independent preprocessor like cpp or ratfor.
People had to write additional tools in perl and python to do
things like substituting macros or include files (latexpand).

Another thing that will piss off somebody from the UNIX world is how
poor the manpage documentation is.  There is an info manual.
It does document the language quite well, but does not say much about
the CLI tools.  In emacs you should see it with

M-: (info "(latex2e) Top")

Part of the reason for such a poor documention of the CLI tools is
that many users of LaTeX do not use CLI tools but an IDE-like
integrated editor like texworks.

In fact, TeX is not very popular among UNIX programmers, and software
documentation is seldom written in LaTeX (with the exception of people
doing maths and physics).

I began using both LaTeX and UNIX almost at the same time, so I was
not really questioning the design of TeX when I was learning, but the
OP, who has been using UNIX for decades, will be shocked by the design
of the TeX tools.

For the OP, I would think twice before diving into LaTeX.  It has many
pitfalls, error reporting is not always clear and takes long time to learn.
If the OP has a simpler way of writing letters, I would put LaTeX aside.

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#34132 — Re: Latex

On 2023-03-12, Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>> Lamport's book on latex is all you will ever need.

I repeat, lamport's  book is all you will ever need, standard tools.. 


>
> It would be good if the books criticized the design of TeX,
> but regrettably nobody dares to criticize what they teach to newbies.
> One of the issues is that TeX does not come from the UNIX world,
> but from TOPS-20, and that makes the design of TeX quite monolythic.
> Over the time people have written tools to interact with TeX
> and LaTeX in a UNIX-like way.

There is a lady who used to post on folklore.computers. She admired
TOPS, forget which. BAH. In ways, she was a  PITA about it. I have used
Linux since it was first proposed. Main problem is the people who want
to  turn into Windows, mostly assholes ("Why should I not work as `root'
is typical.)

I use Latex for letters, which, since I returned from hospital, I seldom
write.
>
> I would not rely on the default tools latex or pdflatex (which is
> what the tutorials tell newbies to do), but instead would use
> latexmk which is part of the official TeXlive distribution).

Texlive is bloated. Tex, Latex is all you need.
>
> latexmk makes compiling documents much nicer.  I really hate being
> thrown into interactive mode each time there is an error in the
> document (and when you are a newbie you make a lot of errors).
>
Its part of learning. If you never sat on a potty, you will find life
difficult.


> Also, another way TeX deviates from the UNIX way of doing things is
> that there is no independent preprocessor like cpp or ratfor.
> People had to write additional tools in perl and python to do
> things like substituting macros or include files (latexpand).

perl, regrettably, is fading into the path. I use ruby. I find the
problem with python is the versions. Debian has moved to 3.0+


>
> Another thing that will piss off somebody from the UNIX world is how
> poor the manpage documentation is.  There is an info manual.
> It does document the language quite well, but does not say much about
> the CLI tools.  In emacs you should see it with
>
> M-: (info "(latex2e) Top")

Mein Gott, someone still uses emacs!
>
> Part of the reason for such a poor documention of the CLI tools is
> that many users of LaTeX do not use CLI tools but an IDE-like
> integrated editor like texworks.

those IDE tools are the  signs that someone wants to use Windows, but is
ashamed to admit it.

>
> In fact, TeX is not very popular among UNIX programmers, and software
> documentation is seldom written in LaTeX (with the exception of people
> doing maths and physics).

I agree. For some purposes, markdown tools are easier. I use
asciidoctor. I still dont know how to enter some things.
>
> I began using both LaTeX and UNIX almost at the same time, so I was
> not really questioning the design of TeX when I was learning, but the
> OP, who has been using UNIX for decades, will be shocked by the design
> of the TeX tools.
>
> For the OP, I would think twice before diving into LaTeX.  It has many
> pitfalls, error reporting is not always clear and takes long time to learn.
> If the OP has a simpler way of writing letters, I would put LaTeX aside.


the less I use a mouse, the better I like it.  When I was in hospital,
a doctor arrived  one day to propose an operation to  remove a pain in
my right arm. ("Only 1% die during the operation.")

I got home, avoided computer games and the mouse,, and the pain
diappeared.



-- 
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

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#34134 — Re: Latex

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:52:06 +0000, Javier wrote:
> In fact, TeX is not very popular among UNIX programmers, and software
> documentation is seldom written in LaTeX (with the exception of people
> doing maths and physics).

This is true, if you are only writing some programming documentation like 
some design description or a requirement specification most people will 
find it easier and more efficient to use som graphical office application 
like LibreOffice or MS Word.

But Latex really shines when it comes to describing mathematical formulas 
or writing long documents with hundreds or thousands of figures. 

However, for a programmer Latex can still be useful for things like 
automagically generate different kinds of test reports.

regards Henrik

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#34136 — Re: Latex

Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:52:06 +0000, Javier wrote:
>> In fact, TeX is not very popular among UNIX programmers, and software
>> documentation is seldom written in LaTeX (with the exception of people
>> doing maths and physics).
>
> This is true, if you are only writing some programming documentation like
> some design description or a requirement specification most people will
> find it easier and more efficient to use som graphical office application
> like LibreOffice or MS Word.

Not all of them where done on graphical office applications.  Kernighan's books
are typeset with pic|tbl|eqn|troff -ms (as stated in page iv of K&R).

> But Latex really shines when it comes to describing mathematical formulas
> or writing long documents with hundreds or thousands of figures.

Richard W Stevens books have hundreds of figures, and IIRC they were
typeset with troff.  But you are right about the equations.  Nothing
is so powerfull for equations as LaTeX.

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#34138 — Re: Latex

Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Not all of them where done on graphical office applications.  Kernighan's books
> are typeset with pic|tbl|eqn|troff -ms (as stated in page iv of K&R).
>
>> But Latex really shines when it comes to describing mathematical formulas
>> or writing long documents with hundreds or thousands of figures.
>
> Richard W Stevens books have hundreds of figures, and IIRC they were
> typeset with troff.  But you are right about the equations.  Nothing
> is so powerfull for equations as LaTeX.

What I want to illustrate, is the fact that the UNIX world didn't
embrace LaTeX, and there is a good reason for that: its implementation
is not simple.

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#34139 — Re: Latex

Den 2023-03-12 skrev Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
> Henrik Carlqvist <Henrik.Carlqvist@deadspam.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:52:06 +0000, Javier wrote:
>>> In fact, TeX is not very popular among UNIX programmers, and software
>>> documentation is seldom written in LaTeX (with the exception of people
>>> doing maths and physics).
>>
>> This is true, if you are only writing some programming documentation like
>> some design description or a requirement specification most people will
>> find it easier and more efficient to use som graphical office application
>> like LibreOffice or MS Word.
>
> Not all of them where done on graphical office applications.  Kernighan's books
> are typeset with pic|tbl|eqn|troff -ms (as stated in page iv of K&R).
>
I guess he had to given his role early UNIX development :-)

/Martin

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#34140 — Re: Latex

Martin Schöön <martin.schoon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not all of them where done on graphical office applications.  Kernighan's books
>> are typeset with pic|tbl|eqn|troff -ms (as stated in page iv of K&R).
>>
> I guess he had to given his role early UNIX development :-)

They had to justify their funding to AT&T management :-)

    https://nakamotoinstitute.org/static/docs/taoup.pdf

    Unix's first real job, in 1971, was to support what would now be called
    word processing for the Bell Labs patent department; the first Unix
    application was the ancestor of the nroff(1) text formatter.  This
    project justified the purchase of a PDP-11, a much more capable
    minicomputer. Management remained blissfully unaware that the
    word-processing system that Thompson and colleagues were building was
    incubating an operating system. Operating systems were not in the Bell
    Labs plan - AT&T had joined the Multics consortium precisely to avoid
    doing an operating system on its own.

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