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TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022

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  TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-02 21:32 +0000
    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 14:30 +0000
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 16:38 +0000
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 17:13 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:33 -0500
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-03 21:55 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-04 13:23 -0800
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:29 +0100
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-06 19:40 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:49 -0600
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-23 10:34 -1000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-12-23 21:42 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-24 11:54 +0000
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-24 11:17 -0600
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-24 18:01 -0600
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-25 11:24 -0700
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-25 09:12 -1000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-12-30 17:06 +0000
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 19:09 +0000
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-30 16:11 -0600
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2022-12-30 20:22 +0000
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> - 2022-12-30 16:12 -0600
                                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 23:44 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-23 12:18 -1000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-24 03:43 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 07:55 -1000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-24 11:08 -0700
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-12-24 18:36 +0000
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-24 21:09 +0000
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 14:03 -1000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2022-12-24 14:46 -1000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2022-03-06 11:17 -0800
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:53 +0100
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-07 22:02 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> - 2022-12-23 11:55 -0600
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-23 12:27 -0700
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-07 03:11 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2022-12-30 13:57 -0800
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2022-12-30 22:11 +0000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-12-30 23:44 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2022-12-30 23:56 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2022-12-31 09:02 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-12-30 20:44 -0500
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-12-30 20:08 -0700
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2022-12-31 00:25 -0800
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-12-31 13:39 +0100
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 00:46 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 "Stephen M. Jones" <smj@ma.sdf.org> - 2022-03-04 18:49 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2022-03-04 14:55 -0600
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-04 22:14 +0000
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-04 22:17 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2022-03-06 04:35 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-06 05:40 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:46 -0500
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-06 17:21 +0100
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-06 11:34 -0700
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:42 +0100
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-06 20:43 -0500
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 15:07 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 17:51 +0100
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:07 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-07 11:47 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:19 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2022-03-08 10:08 +0100
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2022-03-08 19:47 +0000
                              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2022-03-09 01:03 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:18 +0100
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 19:37 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 14:53 -0500
                            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 20:43 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-07 19:52 +0000
                  Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-07 17:18 -0500
                    Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:33 +0000
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 22:58 +0000
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 00:06 +0100
                      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 07:49 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 15:22 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-08 11:17 -0700
                        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> - 2022-03-08 21:09 +0000
                          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-08 21:33 +0000
                Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-07 20:24 +0100
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-03 15:24 -0500
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2022-03-03 21:06 +0000
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2022-03-04 22:47 -0500
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2022-03-04 12:06 -0700
      Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 10:48 -0600
        Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-03-07 17:03 +0000
          Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2022-03-07 19:52 -0600
            Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Fred Smith <fred@thejanitor.corp> - 2022-03-08 04:13 +0000
              Re: TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users 05-Mar-2022 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2022-03-08 16:32 +0100

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#223302

On 2022-12-30, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10 environment is the text editor
> TECO, which was the inspiration for EMACS.

Wasn't EMACS originally implemented in TECO macros? Hence the name,
"Editing MACroS".

Niklas
-- 
You know you're in trouble when the Russians are adding safety
features to your design.
        -- Maciej Ceglowski on Buran, the Space Shuttle clone

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#223305

On 2022-12-30, Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2022-12-30, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10 environment is the text editor
>> TECO, which was the inspiration for EMACS.
>
> Wasn't EMACS originally implemented in TECO macros? Hence the name,
> "Editing MACroS".

I thought it was "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping".

> You know you're in trouble when the Russians are adding safety
> features to your design.
>         -- Maciej Ceglowski on Buran, the Space Shuttle clone

They could probably do it with the 737 MAX, too.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

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#223306

On 2022-12-30, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-12-30, Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-12-30, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10 environment is the text editor
>>> TECO, which was the inspiration for EMACS.
>>
>> Wasn't EMACS originally implemented in TECO macros? Hence the name,
>> "Editing MACroS".
>
> I thought it was "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping".

Well, yes, that's the _real_ name. But not the official story. :-)

"Emacs is a fine operating system, but lacks a decent text editor," as
some say.

I'm not really an Emacs person (don't much care what others edit with,
though), but I do run it for one sole purpose.  There's a domestically
developed bulletin board system called KOM, and the most feature-rich
client is implemented in Emacs LISP.

>> You know you're in trouble when the Russians are adding safety
>> features to your design.
>>         -- Maciej Ceglowski on Buran, the Space Shuttle clone
>
> They could probably do it with the 737 MAX, too.

Probably.

> Microsoft is a dictatorship.
> Apple is a cult.
> Linux is anarchy.
> Pick your poison.

I mix and match. I run Windows at home for games, with a Linux shell
server that I use for, among other things, usenet. My workstation at
work is a Mac, and the servers are all Linux.

I also have an iPhone for private use and an Android phone for work.

I like to keep up to date with all the major factions.

Niklas
-- 
Microsoft's software "Wizards" show that their marketing department
is envisioning Tolkien but their coders are more into Pratchett.
                       -- Anthony de Boer, asr

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#223312

In article <k19c5jFiqf0U1@mid.individual.net>,
Niklas Karlsson  <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Well, yes, that's the _real_ name. But not the official story. :-)
>
>"Emacs is a fine operating system, but lacks a decent text editor," as
>some say.
>
>I'm not really an Emacs person (don't much care what others edit with,
>though), but I do run it for one sole purpose.  There's a domestically
>developed bulletin board system called KOM, and the most feature-rich
>client is implemented in Emacs LISP.

I am reminded of this (rather old) joke:

  Q: What's the name of the kernel file in the GNU operating system?

  A: /vmunix.el

// Christian

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#223308

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:

> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

>> It would have to be hard to tell, since the VAX hardware was a lot faster 
>> than the PDP-10. I enjoyed working with both systems. 

The VAX-11/780 wished it was as fast as the PDP-10.

> they're all good... but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10
> environment is the text editor TECO, which was the inspiration
> for EMACS.

TECO originated on the PDP-1 at MIT.  The name was originally an acronym for
"Tape Editor and COrrector" (referring to paper tape on the Friden Flexowriter).
DEC did implementations for each architecture, and MIT did their own
implementations for the PDP-6 and PDP-10 (running their own OS, the
Incompatible Timesharing System).

EMACS was implemented in the MIT dialect for the PDP-10, after a real-time
video mode was created for that TECO.

Old .sig:

Rich Alderson                   Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
                                Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM         Customer Interface, XKL LLC


-- 
Rich Alderson                                     news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
          omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
                                                                        --Galen

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#223309

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
> 
>> It would have to be hard to tell, since the VAX hardware was a lot faster 
>> than the PDP-10. I enjoyed working with both systems. 
> 
> I briefly used OpenVMS, and I noted one feature that it had because
> VAX hardware was modern and fast... and thus it had very large disk
> files.
> 
> You could put square brackets after a file name, and get previous
> versions of the file. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have offered _that_
> facility with TOPS-10 or TOPS-20.

TOPS-20 supports file versioning. I had to look this up, because memory
begins to fail after 50 years.

-- 
Pete

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#223311

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 8:08:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

> TOPS-20 supports file versioning. I had to look this up, because memory 
> begins to fail after 50 years. 

Was that something you had to specifically request, though? Because
OpenVMS basically versioned all files by default. To an extent that I
would have thought to be far too wasteful to countenance on older
systems.

John Savard

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#223313

On 2022-12-31 09:25, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 8:08:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
> 
>> TOPS-20 supports file versioning. I had to look this up, because memory
>> begins to fail after 50 years.
> 
> Was that something you had to specifically request, though? Because
> OpenVMS basically versioned all files by default. To an extent that I
> would have thought to be far too wasteful to countenance on older
> systems.
> 
> John Savard

TOPS-20 always have versions of files, just like VMS and RSX.
However, you could set both TOPS-20 and VMS to automatically purge older 
versions.

Also, the notation was not with any square brackets.

In VMS, it is DEV:[DIRECTORY]FILENAME.EXT;VERSION
In TOPS-20, it is DEV:<DIRECTORY>FILENAME.EXT.VERSION

unless my brain suddenly developed another bit error. :-)

(VMS and RSX do also support the TOPS-20 style syntax.)

And version can be left out, which always gives you the latest version 
when opening, and a new version when creating. There are some special 
values possible on version as well.

   Johnny

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#220222

On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 15:33:04 -0500, Rich Alderson wrote:

> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> 
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
> 
>>>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the
>>>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a
> 
>>> 	PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS.
>>> 	VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS.
> 
>> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family?
> 
> VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983.

It is also true to say that it ran on supported hardware in 1977.


-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#220227

I would like to apologize for confusing VMS users with my joke/reference.
Though Rich has provided some excellent background into the development of
TOPS-20.  He was there and still is.

The "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users" was in reference to the parody
in "Alice's PDP-10" which has a passage that goes a little like this:

...
   And I put down my keyboard, and I switched buffers, and there ... 
   in the other buffer...  centered in the other buffer...  away from 
   everything else in the buffer...  in parentheses, capital letters, 
   in reverse video, read the following words:

   "Kid, have you taken the ``VMS for TOPS-20 managers'' course yet?"

   I walked over to the man and I said "Mister, you got a lot of damned
   gall asking me if I've taken the ``VMS for TOPS-20 managers'' course
   yet.  I mean... I mean... I mean, I'm sitting here on the bench, I'm
   sitting here on the LCG SIG bench, 'cause you want to know if I'm
   braindamaged enough trade my PDP-10 for partial credit on a system
   that doesn't even handle filename completion after being a litterbug."

   He looked at me and said "Kid, the front office don't like your kind,
   so we're going to put you on our VAX/VMS mailing list."  And friends,
   somewhere down in the NE43 receiving room is a large trash barrel with
   a big sign on it that says "VAX/VMS documents".
...

Hence the title of the SDF event: "TOPS-20 Boot Camp for VMS Users".  And
it's really not just for VMS Users, but anyone interested in TOPS-20.  There
will likely be more comparisons with Linux (a wildly popular operating system)
rather than with VMS (a mildly popular operating system).

You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. 

References: https://www.hactrn.net/sra/alice/alices.pdp10

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#220230

 > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. 

Excepting, of course, Alice.

De

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#220235

drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
> > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT. 
>
>Excepting, of course, Alice.

Thanks Arlo.

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#220237

On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 22:14:54 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
>> > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT.
>>
>>Excepting, of course, Alice.
> 
> Thanks Arlo.

I have the album and the movie.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
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#220246

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes:

>On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 22:14:54 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
>>> > You can hack anything that you want, with TECO and DDT.
>>>
>>>Excepting, of course, Alice.
>> 
>> Thanks Arlo.

>I have the album and the movie.

What about the 8x10 glossy photographs with circles and arrows...?

-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

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#220247

On 4 Mar 2022 22:17:58 GMT
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

> I have the album and the movie.

	How about the anniversary recordings ? I have the thirtieth which
has some fun Nixon references.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

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#220242

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes:

> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 15:33:04 -0500, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

>>> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family?

>> VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983.

> It is also true to say that it ran on supported hardware in 1977.

The 4th generation of the PDP-10 line was canceled in May, 1983, although the
customer base was large enough (financially speaking) to force Digital to
provide hardware support until 1988 and software support until 1993, but there
were no more sales by Digital of PDP-10 hardware to new customers after May
1983.

So an advantage of  the VAX and VMS over the PDP-10 systems was support after
1983.  Got it?

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#220248

I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already 
happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm 
about to give, but anyway...

On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> 
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT
>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> 
>>>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the
>>>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a
> 
>>> 	PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS.
>>> 	VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS.
> 
>> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family?
> 
> VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983.

True. Or perhaps you should have said "developed after 1983". Not sure 
if I'd classify that as an advantage when trying to do some kind of 
comparison between the systems, though.

> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS.

Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich.
As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that 
enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't 
very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things.
TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a 
much more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have 
some features and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more 
mainframe-oriented? What does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse 
from an execution point of view than VMS, requiring more resources to 
get the job done. But VMS isn't really any kind of batch oriented 
environment either...

>> I'm quite aware of the hardware specifications.
> 
>> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL?
> 
> Again, there ain't no "TOPS".

[...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. 
Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the 
interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in 
TOPS-10 it's EXEC.
EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name 
completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's 
just so much nicer than DCL.

Scripting wise, it's much more muddled.

Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse 
in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they 
different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to 
just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective.

   Johnny

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#220250

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already 
> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm 
> about to give, but anyway...
> 
> On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> 
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>>> On Thu, 03 Mar 2022 14:30:52 GMT
>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>> 
>>>>> Can you refresh my memory on the advantages and disadvantages of the
>>>>> PDP-10 vs. the VAX-11/780?   From a technical standpoint, not from a
>> 
>>>> PDP-10 was a 36 bit mainframe that (usually) ran TOPS.
>>>> VAX-11/780 was a 32 bit mini that (usually) ran VMS.
>> 
>>> What were the advantages, if any, of one family over the other family?
>> 
>> VMS ran on supported hardware after 1983.
> 
> True. Or perhaps you should have said "developed after 1983". Not sure 
> if I'd classify that as an advantage when trying to do some kind of 
> comparison between the systems, though.
> 
>> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS.
> 
> Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich.
> As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that 
> enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't 
> very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things.
> TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a 
> much more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have 
> some features and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more 
> mainframe-oriented? What does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse 
> from an execution point of view than VMS, requiring more resources to 
> get the job done. But VMS isn't really any kind of batch oriented 
> environment either...
> 
>>> I'm quite aware of the hardware specifications.
>> 
>>> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL?
>> 
>> Again, there ain't no "TOPS".
> 
> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. 
> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the 
> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in 
> TOPS-10 it's EXEC.
> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name 
> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's 
> just so much nicer than DCL.
> 
> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled.
> 
> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse 
> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they 
> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to 
> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective.
> 
>   Johnny
> 

It’s been a lot of years, but doesn’t VMS DCL have command-line completion?
(sorry for all the included text, I can’t seem to get this darn thing to
select text to delete)

-- 
Pete

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#220261

On 2022-03-06 19:34, Peter Flass wrote:
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already
>> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm
>> about to give, but anyway...

>>>> How does TOPS DCL compare with VMS DCL?
>>>
>>> Again, there ain't no "TOPS".
>>
>> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
>> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here.
>> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the
>> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in
>> TOPS-10 it's EXEC.
>> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name
>> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's
>> just so much nicer than DCL.
>>
>> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled.
>>
>> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse
>> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they
>> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to
>> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective.
>>
>>    Johnny
>>
> 
> It’s been a lot of years, but doesn’t VMS DCL have command-line completion?
> (sorry for all the included text, I can’t seem to get this darn thing to
> select text to delete)

No, it don't. On VAX, there was a hack (from DECUS?) called DCLCOMPLETE
which sortof added this. But I don't think it was ever made to work on 
any other hardware platform, it was sortof not working perfectly, and it 
was definitely not something DEC ever included.

   Johnny

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#220256

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:

> I am of course, late to the game. And the bootcamp have already 
> happened. So people might already know the answers and comments I'm 
> about to give, but anyway...

> On 2022-03-03 21:33, Rich Alderson wrote:

>> The PDP-10 operating systems were mainframe oriented ab origine, unlike VMS.

> Not entirely sure what you mean by that, Rich.

> As you noted, Tops-10 originated in the monitor for the PDP-6. Is that 
> enough to call it mainframe? And is that a good thing? Tops-10 wasn't 
> very fancy or capable in some ways, even though it had some nifty things.

I have in personal collection an advertisement from a UK magazine of the
Scientific American sort for the PDP-6 which touts it as a large system
available both for batch and for timesharing operations for a large number
of users.  It was clearly positioned to compete with IBM and the rest of the
Seven Dwarves.  (I do not believe that they had contracted into the BUNCH by
the 2nd quarter of 1964.)

On those grounds I will claim that it was considered to be a mainframe.  KO
clearly considered it to be such when he declared (following its failure in the
marketplace) that DEC would not compete with IBM.

> TOPS-20 is a completely different thing (as you also observed), with a much
> more capable and nice design, if you ask me. If definitely have some features
> and capabilities that VMS lacked. But was it more mainframe-oriented? What
> does that even mean? TOPS-20 was probably worse from an execution point of
> view than VMS, requiring more resources to get the job done. But VMS isn't
> really any kind of batch oriented environment either...

DEC positioned the DEC-20 and TOPS-20 as *replacements* for Tops-10 on the
earlier generations of the PDP-10.  If we can agree that DEC marketed those as
mainframe systems, then we have to accept that the -20 was also intended as a
mainframe.

> [...MIC and and PCL text deleted...]
> I think the question wasn't about scripting, but interactive use here. 
> Tops-10 or TOPS-20 did not have DCL. I can't remember what the 
> interactive command line interpreter was called in Tops-10, but in 
> TOPS-10 it's EXEC.

Most of the discussion of DCL which I see on comp.os.vms has to do with the
scripting features rather than interactive use, so that's what I tend to think
of when asked to compare the PDP-10 offerings to it.

On Tops-10, the command processor is part of the running monitor; TOPS-20 has
only a very very limited built-in command processor, called the Mini-EXEC, with
single character commands to G(et a monitor), S(tart the loaded monitor), and
possibly E(nter DDT on the monitor) but that might be a pipe dream.

I do not know VMS (or RSTS/E or RSX) internals.  Is DCL a separate program,
like the TOPS-20 EXEC?  Or an interaction with the monitor/kernel?

> EXEC is for most people a much nicer environment than DCL. Command name 
> completion, filename completion, guide words, interactive help... It's 
> just so much nicer than DCL.

You get no argument from me!

> Scripting wise, it's much more muddled.

> Apart from user interaction, some things are better, and some are worse 
> in VMS. It's hard to answer a generic question like "how were they 
> different", or what advantages one had over the other, unless we want to 
> just talk specific technical details. Because the rest is pretty subjective.

Amen.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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