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Touch screens in cars

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  Touch screens in cars Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-20 05:46 -0700
    Re: Touch screens in cars "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-01-20 14:24 +0100
      Re: Touch screens in cars Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-22 17:10 -0700
        Re: Touch screens in cars J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-22 19:55 -0500
        Re: Touch screens in cars scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-23 00:55 +0000
    Re: Touch screens in cars Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-20 13:10 +0000
      Re: Touch screens in cars "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-20 16:16 +0000
        Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-20 16:51 +0000
          Re: Touch screens in cars J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 12:52 -0500
            Re: Touch screens in cars Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-20 19:37 +0000
              Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 18:00 -0500
              Re: Touch screens in cars Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-01-22 17:10 -0700
                Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-22 20:34 -0500
                  Re: Touch screens in cars J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-22 20:45 -0500
              Re: Touch screens in cars dave@661.org (David Griffith) - 2021-02-09 02:04 +0000
            Re: Touch screens in cars Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-21 13:03 +0000
              Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-21 18:10 +0000
                Re: Touch screens in cars J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-21 17:01 -0500
        Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 13:21 -0500
          Re: Touch screens in cars J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 14:22 -0500
            Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 14:48 -0500
              Re: Touch screens in cars Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-20 20:23 +0000
                Re: Touch screens in cars "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-20 21:31 +0000
                  Re: Touch screens in cars Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-20 22:01 +0000
                    Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 18:14 -0500
                    Re: Touch screens in cars Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-21 09:19 +0000
                    Re: Touch screens in cars "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-21 10:06 +0000
                    Re: Touch screens in cars Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-22 07:37 +0000
                      Re: Touch screens in cars Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2021-01-22 07:53 +0000
                        Re: Touch screens in cars Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2021-01-22 12:02 +0000
                      Re: lotsa RAM, Touch screens in cars John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-01-22 20:06 +0000
                Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 18:08 -0500
                  Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-21 00:48 +0000
    Re: Touch screens in cars Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 08:44 -0500
    Re: Touch screens in cars scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-01-20 15:45 +0000
      Re: Touch screens in cars Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-20 16:28 +0000
        Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-20 16:51 +0000
    Re: Touch screens in cars JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2021-01-20 09:55 -0600
      Re: Touch screens in cars "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-20 16:22 +0000
        Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-20 16:51 +0000
          Re: Touch screens in cars Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-01-20 15:29 -0400
          Re: Touch screens in cars "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-20 21:33 +0000
        Re: Touch screens in cars Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-01-20 16:39 +0000
          Re: Touch screens in cars "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2021-01-20 21:34 +0000
    Re: Touch screens in cars Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-01-20 22:35 -0500
      Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-21 06:18 +0000
      Re: Touch screens in cars Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-01-21 06:18 +0000

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#216433

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 13:21:44 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 13:10:43 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote: 
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 05:46:19 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I was thinking about my perennial rant about drivers having to take
>>>>> their eyes iff the road to use touchscreen controls, and have thought
>>>>> of a (probably not original solution). Fabricate the screen with a
>>>>> slightly raised grid that the driver can feel, and then lay out the
>>>>> controls relative to the grid. For a given set of controls  the
>>>>> driver might know, for example, that to turn up the A/C the button is
>>>>> second column from the right, third row, It should be possible to
>>>>> perform frequently used operations without taking his eyes off the
>>>>> road, just like pre touch-screen operation.
>>>
>>> I trust that the James Bond Eject button isn't next to it.
>>>> 
>>>>      I like that a lot provided the manufacturers refrain from
>>>> rearranging things every update. It should even be easy enough to
>>>> retrofit using something like PCB layout tape (who else remembers
>>>> using that ?). 
>>>
>>> Pah, I recall when "all" headlights were round & 6" diameter, so 
>>> interchangeable. 
>>
>>Yep, and they would burn out pretty quickly.
>>I'm not sure what they are using now, but if they go the LED route
>>changing them shouldn't be much of an issue.
>
> They were using halogens for a while--IIRC the H3 and H4 were pretty
> much the Euro standard (H3 for hi- or lo- only, H4 for hi-lo) but
> there are a bunch of other similar ones.  LED headlights aren't really
> designed for bulb replacement--replace the whole assembly if it ever
> needs it, but they should last the life of the vehicle.
>
>>> As recently (20 years? that's OK here) encountered with phone charging 
>>> socket/plugs.
>>
>>My latest phone (S10E) uses usb-c.
>>Now I can just use a generic cable.
>>Yay!
>
> And it can actually carry a decent current.

And you can turn the plug any way you like.

I'm in the process or replacing the innards of my desktop.
One of the reasons I'm doing this is to upgrade to usb-c.
My nightly backups should run faster.
I've got a new X570 motherboard, an AMD 5600x, 2 M2 SSD drives.
I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
I don't need that much, but you only live once.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#216438

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
> I don't need that much, but you only live once.

	Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
statement.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#216439

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:23:44 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> 
wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
>> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
> 
>      Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
> started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
> statement.
> 

k->M->G..>T?

Kids today, get off my lawn!

-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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#216442

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 21:31:48 -0000 (UTC)
"Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:23:44 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
> >> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
> > 
> >      Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
> > started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
> > statement.
> > 
> 
> k->M->G..>T?

	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#216445

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 21:31:48 -0000 (UTC)
> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:23:44 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
>> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
>> >> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
>> > 
>> >      Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
>> > started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
>> > statement.
>> > 
>> 
>> k->M->G..>T?
>
> 	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.

I currently have 2 SSDs, 64GB and 1TB.
I'm replacing them with M.2 NVMe sticks, 256GB and 1TB.
So for a while my desktop will be 2TB.

These M.2 sticks surprised me, I didn't know they get embedded in
thermal grease.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#216453

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> schrieb:

> 	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.

The workstation under my desk at work has 512 GB of RAM, larger
than the system SSD.

I need it only very occasionally, but there are certain linear
equation solvers in an application which are a) very fast b)
extremely stable and which c) need a huge amount of memory if the
equation system they solve becomes just a little too large.

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#216454

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 22:01:39 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote: 

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 21:31:48 -0000 (UTC)
> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:23:44 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
>> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
>> >> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
>> > 
>> >      Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
>> > started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
>> > statement.
>> > 
>> 
>> k->M->G..>T?
> 
>      I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.
> 
Not Yet.



-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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#216465

On 2021-01-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 21:31:48 -0000 (UTC)
> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 20:23:44 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
>> > Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
>> >> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
>> > 
>> >      Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
>> > started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
>> > statement.
>> > 
>> 
>> k->M->G..>T?
>
> 	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.

I work in high-performance computing, and it's pretty much de rigueur
there. Certainly if you add up the nodes of our biggest supercomputer
rather than considering them individually.

Niklas
-- 
I'd like to think that when I am falling to my doom off a crumbly limestone
cliff I won't be saying, "Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!!" but rather, "You know,
they really should put that fence further back."
                              -- David Morgan-Mar

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#216466

Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> schrieb:
> On 2021-01-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

>> 	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.
>
> I work in high-performance computing, and it's pretty much de rigueur
> there. Certainly if you add up the nodes of our biggest supercomputer
> rather than considering them individually.

My impression is that the amount of memory per core isn't all
that large for high-performance computers.  Which means that if
you have a cluster with a mixed load, you'll have to equip some
nodes specially for CFD applications, because they often have high
memory requirements...

From a folkloristic perspective, I find the resemblance between
the slurm options and what you have to put on the JOB statement
of IBM's JCL rather amusing, given that everybody abhors JCL.

But then again, you use them to submit to a batch queue, so
it stands to reason that you have to specify the same things.

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#216468

On 2021-01-22, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> schrieb:
>> On 2021-01-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>>> 	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.
>>
>> I work in high-performance computing, and it's pretty much de rigueur
>> there. Certainly if you add up the nodes of our biggest supercomputer
>> rather than considering them individually.
>
> My impression is that the amount of memory per core isn't all
> that large for high-performance computers.  Which means that if
> you have a cluster with a mixed load, you'll have to equip some
> nodes specially for CFD applications, because they often have high
> memory requirements...

That's true, not all nodes tend to be created equal. In the new system I
believe the largest nodes will have 1 TiB of RAM, and the most numerous
ones a quarter of that.

There are also nodes specialised in GPU loads.

> From a folkloristic perspective, I find the resemblance between
> the slurm options and what you have to put on the JOB statement
> of IBM's JCL rather amusing, given that everybody abhors JCL.
>
> But then again, you use them to submit to a batch queue, so
> it stands to reason that you have to specify the same things.

I can imagine. I haven't gotten that deep into slurm yet.

Niklas
-- 
} >A manual has, at least, some basis in fact,
} Erm, excuse me?  
Usually, the name of the program matches the manual's title page.
           -- DPM, Patrick R. Wade and Rik Steenwinkel in asr

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#216469 — Re: lotsa RAM, Touch screens in cars

In article <i6vdlbFbivjU1@mid.individual.net>,
Niklas Karlsson  <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
>> 	I do know of systems with terabytes of RAM.
>
>I work in high-performance computing, and it's pretty much de rigueur
>there. Certainly if you add up the nodes of our biggest supercomputer
>rather than considering them individually.

IBM's current z15 mainframes can be configured with up to 16TB on the
smallest single rack model, 40TB on the largest four-rack model.

They can have up to 190 CPUs to keep the RAM busy.

In cloud land, AWS can set you up with a special purpose virtual
server with 24TB of RAM to run in-memory databases. Their normal
virtual servers go up to about 4TB.


-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#216444

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
>> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
>
> 	Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
> started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
> statement.

Business is different.

Actually, some peculiarity of these CPUs or motherboards says they work
better with 4 sticks instead of 2. I wanted 4400Mhz and they came 8GB
apiece.

On my first job, 16K was the biggest machine they had (a 1460).
Left that place pretty quick and worked 2 years with 8K.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#216446

On 2021-01-20, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 14:48:32 -0500
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm expecting 32GB ram tomorrow.
>>> I don't need that much, but you only live once.
>>
>> 	Just how loud would the laughter have been if, on the day you
>> started your first job in the biz, someone had told you about that
>> statement.
>
> Business is different.
>
> Actually, some peculiarity of these CPUs or motherboards says they work
> better with 4 sticks instead of 2. I wanted 4400Mhz and they came 8GB
> apiece.
>
> On my first job, 16K was the biggest machine they had (a 1460).
> Left that place pretty quick and worked 2 years with 8K.

In my first job we had 16K.  We later upgraded to 32K.  Luxury!
I did so some work on an 8K machine.  That wasn't nearly as much fun.

This was about the time when IBM was making waves by slashing the
price of a megabyte of memory from $75,000 to a mere $15,000.

<FourYorkshiremen>
And you try to tell the young people of today that...
they won't believe you.  They won't!
</FourYorkshiremen>

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  "Some of you may die,
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  but it's a sacrifice
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  I'm willing to make."
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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#216417

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> I was thinking about my perennial rant about drivers having to take their
> eyes iff the road to use touchscreen controls, and have thought of a
> (probably not original solution). Fabricate the screen with a slightly
> raised grid that the driver can feel, and then lay out the controls
> relative to the grid. For a given set of controls  the driver might know,
> for example, that to turn up the A/C the button is second column from the
> right, third row, It should be possible to perform frequently used
> operations without taking his eyes off the road, just like pre touch-screen
> operation.

I'm thinking, that's a great idea, you ought to think about a patent.
But like most things laymen come up with, that's already been invented.
Disney to the rescue:

https://tinyurl.com/y57y32rn


-- 
Dan Espen

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#216418

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>I was thinking about my perennial rant about drivers having to take their
>eyes iff the road to use touchscreen controls, and have thought of a
>(probably not original solution). Fabricate the screen with a slightly
>raised grid that the driver can feel, and then lay out the controls
>relative to the grid. For a given set of controls  the driver might know,
>for example, that to turn up the A/C the button is second column from the
>right, third row, It should be possible to perform frequently used
>operations without taking his eyes off the road, just like pre touch-screen
>operation.

How about using voice commands instead?

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#216422

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 15:45:47 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> How about using voice commands instead?

	"Turn left" ... "No No The OTHER left"

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#216424

On 2021-01-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 15:45:47 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> How about using voice commands instead?
>
> 	"Turn left" ... "No No The OTHER left"

Who said that?  The radio?  Or the kids in the back seat?

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  "Some of you may die,
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  but it's a sacrifice
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  I'm willing to make."
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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#216419

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 05:46:19 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I was thinking about my perennial rant about drivers having to take their
>eyes iff the road to use touchscreen controls, and have thought of a
>(probably not original solution). Fabricate the screen with a slightly
>raised grid that the driver can feel, and then lay out the controls
>relative to the grid. For a given set of controls  the driver might know,
>for example, that to turn up the A/C the button is second column from the
>right, third row, It should be possible to perform frequently used
>operations without taking his eyes off the road, just like pre touch-screen
>operation.

One of my relatives has a car with a touch screen, there are also
controls on the steering wheel that do many things.

-- 
Jim

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#216421

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 15:55:49 GMT, JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 05:46:19 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>I was thinking about my perennial rant about drivers having to take
>>their eyes iff the road to use touchscreen controls, and have thought
>>of a (probably not original solution). Fabricate the screen with a
>>slightly raised grid that the driver can feel, and then lay out the
>>controls relative to the grid. For a given set of controls  the driver
>>might know, for example, that to turn up the A/C the button is second
>>column from the right, third row, It should be possible to perform
>>frequently used operations without taking his eyes off the road, just
>>like pre touch-screen operation.
> 
> One of my relatives has a car with a touch screen, there are also
> controls on the steering wheel that do many things.
> 


Scott Adams? 

Once I wished my television?/computer? could be as easy to operate as my 
phone. and sadly now it's come true.



Of course I couldn't find that quote, as it gave me 500 "get a quote 
here" websites
-- 
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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#216423

On 2021-01-20, Kerr-Mudd,John <notsaying@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> Scott Adams? 
>
> Once I wished my television?/computer? could be as easy to operate as my 
> phone. and sadly now it's come true.
>
> Of course I couldn't find that quote, as it gave me 500 "get a quote 
> here" websites

    I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as
    my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer
    figure out how to use my telephone.
      -- Bjarne Stroustrup

https://www.stroustrup.com/quotes.html

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  "Some of you may die,
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  but it's a sacrifice
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  I'm willing to make."
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

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