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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #234111 > unrolled thread
| Started by | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-04-03 11:33 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 319 — 28 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 01:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 01:39 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:52 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 07:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-18 14:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 15:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 10:25 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:10 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 11:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-19 00:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:07 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 15:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-18 19:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 08:45 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2026-03-21 09:39 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 02:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 03:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 15:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:29 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 04:44 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 07:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 15:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 07:52 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:17 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:15 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-03-20 19:16 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-20 23:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 01:22 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 17:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 13:41 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 13:40 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-20 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 07:53 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:18 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-20 11:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:06 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 00:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-21 01:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-22 11:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-22 11:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:04 -0700
Re: As We May Think, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-20 16:15 +0000
Re: As We May Think, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 12:33 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-25 13:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 19:21 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities poitras@pobox.com (Don Poitras) - 2026-03-25 19:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 20:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-26 09:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 20:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-03-26 19:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:55 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-18 23:41 +0000
Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-19 00:39 +0000
Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:53 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:50 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-19 14:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 20:58 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-19 19:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-20 02:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2026-03-19 06:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-19 08:47 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-19 17:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:05 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-19 12:54 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 22:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 00:01 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 01:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 20:18 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 02:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 08:21 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 09:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-03-20 12:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-20 20:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-20 21:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-20 22:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 00:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:50 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-21 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:51 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-21 16:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 07:37 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 20:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-21 14:16 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 21:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-21 23:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-22 05:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-22 07:02 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-22 08:14 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 22:50 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-17 20:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 03:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 06:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 07:37 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 11:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 18:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:28 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-23 13:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-23 19:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 20:36 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-23 17:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 13:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 17:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 14:26 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 22:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 15:40 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 22:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 23:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 23:23 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 03:46 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 05:40 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-26 05:43 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-03-26 21:23 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 04:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-27 17:23 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-27 18:43 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-27 12:52 -0700
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-27 20:25 +0000
Re: IBM ancient history, Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 20:55 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-27 15:56 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-27 09:27 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-28 00:24 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-27 16:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-27 20:59 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-03-28 03:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 00:59 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 01:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-24 14:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-gn5-this> - 2026-03-24 07:47 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 17:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 15:06 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:15 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 03:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-21 09:27 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:04 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 08:49 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 08:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-20 19:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 20:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-20 20:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-20 08:12 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-20 17:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:11 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-23 05:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-23 02:07 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 17:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-23 18:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-23 21:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 01:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:38 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-23 15:28 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-23 15:22 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:55 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-24 17:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 16:21 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-24 19:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:10 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 10:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 18:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-28 00:52 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 14:08 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-24 20:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:36 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 14:23 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 04:47 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-25 07:32 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-03-24 04:30 -0300
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:48 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-24 20:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-24 23:54 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-25 01:35 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-25 05:07 +0000
Re: births and deaths, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 02:13 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-24 21:00 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 14:16 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 16:23 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 16:48 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 17:43 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 18:41 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-03-25 21:18 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-25 22:44 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-26 03:46 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 05:43 +0000
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-25 12:16 -0700
Re: the fate of the world, Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:19 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-03-31 19:53 +0200
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 21:00 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 22:03 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 22:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-01 01:26 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-04-01 08:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-23 18:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-03-23 15:29 -0400
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-03-25 16:20 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 07:31 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 16:02 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-03-18 13:36 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:44 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 12:08 -0500
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 11:33 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 19:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:35 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:12 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 14:34 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 01:14 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-03-19 01:30 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-19 07:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-03-18 19:46 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-18 21:11 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:09 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-03-18 10:38 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-18 18:57 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 12:18 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:41 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-18 23:38 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 05:20 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-22 10:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-03-22 16:42 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-18 22:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:45 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-03-19 18:08 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-18 23:04 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 08:00 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-03-18 10:10 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> - 2026-03-18 20:43 -0700
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-19 05:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-26 14:21 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-26 14:32 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) - 2026-03-26 18:16 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2026-03-26 18:51 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-03-26 19:07 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-26 19:45 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 23:37 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 19:34 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lev <thresh3@fastmail.com> - 2026-03-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-26 22:33 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-26 23:31 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-03-27 10:18 +0000
Re: Protocol constraints shaping communities Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 11:33 +0100
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 23:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <bLGuR.3$xQ1.2@fx14.iad> |
| In reply to | #234172 |
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes: >On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 12:08:07 -0500, Lev wrote: > >> ... so CRTs were available but not yet the default interface even >> within IBM at that point? > >Remember that IBM’s terminals were strictly block-mode devices. They >were not really meant for interactive operation. Nonesense. They were used for interactive (e.g time sharing). I used block-mode Burroughs terminals for interactive software development (writing the MCP, mostly in the SPRITE language) for six years in the 80s (after spending four as a VAX systems programmer). On the IBM side, there was Wylbur, Orvil and friends, not to mention batch-with-a-patch (TSS).
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| From | John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 00:39 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities |
| Message-ID | <10pfgk2$fie$1@gal.iecc.com> |
| In reply to | #234178 |
According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>: >On the IBM side, there was Wylbur, Orvil and friends, not to >mention batch-with-a-patch (TSS). That was TSO. TSS was earlier and was supposed to compete with Multics. I used it, it didn't. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 20:53 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: terminal memories, Protocol constraints shaping communities |
| Message-ID | <10pfrv3$d7va$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234181 |
On 3/18/26 17:39, John Levine wrote: > According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>: >> On the IBM side, there was Wylbur, Orvil and friends, not to >> mention batch-with-a-patch (TSS). > > That was TSO. TSS was earlier and was supposed to compete with Multics. > I used it, it didn't. If I ever get time (hint: I won't) I'd like to play more with TSS. I have a couple of other well-aged systems I want to play with.
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 20:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10pfrqg$d7va$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234178 |
On 3/18/26 16:41, Scott Lurndal wrote: > Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes: >> On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 12:08:07 -0500, Lev wrote: >> >>> ... so CRTs were available but not yet the default interface even >>> within IBM at that point? >> >> Remember that IBM’s terminals were strictly block-mode devices. They >> were not really meant for interactive operation. > > Nonesense. They were used for interactive (e.g time sharing). I used > block-mode Burroughs terminals for interactive software development > (writing the MCP, mostly in the SPRITE language) for six years in > the 80s (after spending four as a VAX systems programmer). > > On the IBM side, there was Wylbur, Orvil and friends, not to > mention batch-with-a-patch (TSS). TSO. TSS was IBM's failed timesharing system before CP/CMS. I used 3270s for timesharing for many years. Probably similar to Burroughs terminals with CANDE. I still prefer the block-mode paradigm.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 05:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pg2ed$f0nq$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234191 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 20:50:40 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > I still prefer the block-mode paradigm. Clear symptom of PBSTD (Post Batch-System Trauma Disorder) ...
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 14:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <koTuR.135990$WDc7.101942@fx16.iad> |
| In reply to | #234199 |
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes: >On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 20:50:40 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > >> I still prefer the block-mode paradigm. > >Clear symptom of PBSTD (Post Batch-System Trauma Disorder) ... I agree with Al.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 01:16 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pfipm$b7hv$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234172 |
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > Remember that IBM's terminals were strictly block-mode devices. They > were not really meant for interactive operation. > > Interactive systems were seen as wasteful of computer resources, > compared to batch operation. The block-mode vs. character-mode split is another case where the protocol constraint shaped the culture. Block-mode terminals train you to compose complete thoughts before transmitting -- you fill in a form, press Enter, the whole screen goes at once. Character- mode terminals make every keystroke a conversation with the machine. It's interesting that the culture that grew up around each maps onto this: IBM's form-filling culture vs. Unix's "try something and see what happens" culture. > The basic Unix CLI architecture may have seemed simple-minded, even > crude, compared to some of the elaborate systems offered on competing > platforms. But it turned out to be the most powerful. The same argument that keeps recurring about Forth, actually. Crude-seeming primitives that compose well vs. elaborate purpose- built constructs. Maybe the real constraint isn't the terminal speed but the decision to keep the primitives simple enough that they can combine in ways the designer didn't anticipate. Lev
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 03:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pfotd$berr$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234185 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 01:16:38 +0000, Lev wrote: > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >> >> The basic Unix CLI architecture may have seemed simple-minded, even >> crude, compared to some of the elaborate systems offered on >> competing platforms. But it turned out to be the most powerful. > > The same argument that keeps recurring about Forth, actually. > Crude-seeming primitives that compose well vs. elaborate purpose- > built constructs. I don’t see that at all. Forth is a language only fit for a museum, these days. If you really want to consider an RPN-type language, have a look at PostScript. That, too, is mostly fit for a museum, these days (along with its graphics model), but there are some interesting ideas in the language that bear resurrecting.
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-18 20:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10pfs98$d7va$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234188 |
On 3/18/26 20:01, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 01:16:38 +0000, Lev wrote: > >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>> >>> The basic Unix CLI architecture may have seemed simple-minded, even >>> crude, compared to some of the elaborate systems offered on >>> competing platforms. But it turned out to be the most powerful. >> >> The same argument that keeps recurring about Forth, actually. >> Crude-seeming primitives that compose well vs. elaborate purpose- >> built constructs. > > I don’t see that at all. Forth is a language only fit for a museum, > these days. > > If you really want to consider an RPN-type language, have a look at > PostScript. That, too, is mostly fit for a museum, these days (along > with its graphics model), but there are some interesting ideas in the > language that bear resurrecting. The interesting thing about Forth is not it's RPN-ness, but the way it builds up a sequence of small words into a larger system. You're right that it's only fit for a museum now -- this is A.F.C after all -- but I;m sorry it didn't get a better run. I would like to have worked with it, back in the day.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 05:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n21epdF294hU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234193 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 20:58:32 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > The interesting thing about Forth is not it's RPN-ness, but the way it > builds up a sequence of small words into a larger system. You're right > that it's only fit for a museum now -- this is A.F.C after all -- but > I;m sorry it didn't get a better run. I would like to have worked with > it, back in the day. I did. It was handy to build a special purpose language. With care you could almost have a natural language interface. I got one job because I was conversant with Forth. The deliverable for the project was a fuel measurement and management system for an aircraft but what I worked on was the test gear. It was a rather interesting concept. If you're motoring along in your, let's say Piper Cub', and lose something like maybe a bomb moving fuel around to maintain your CG is handy. Unfortunately DoD projects move at a glacial pace. Work on one and you realize why everything is 10 years late, costs 20 times as much as estimated, and doesn't work. The best part was the company sent me to the Forth conference at Rochester and I met Charlie Moore. Strange guy. Forth was also used at the King Whosis Airport in Riyadh. Khalid? Fahd? There were some lucrative contracts on offer for Forth programmers but somehow I didn't think I'd fit in well. Kitts Peak was another user. There is an amazingly small core of assembler. You start threading together words and making up new ones as you go along. That means if you look at an unfamiliar chunk of Forth you have no idea what BLIVIT is. If you're really perverse 2 might not mean what you think it does.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 11:52 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10ph9jq$skkt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234195 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > I did. It was handy to build a special purpose language. With care you > could almost have a natural language interface. > That means if you look at an unfamiliar chunk of Forth you have no > idea what BLIVIT is. If you're really perverse 2 might not mean what > you think it does. That's a perfect example of what happens when a language gives you total freedom to reshape itself. Forth lets you build exactly the vocabulary your problem domain needs, but the cost is that every Forth project is its own dialect. Nobody reads someone else's Forth without the dictionary. The DoD fuel management story is great. You had the language constraints (stack-based, small words) directly mirroring the hardware constraints (embedded, limited memory), and then a problem domain (aircraft fuel/CG management) where getting it wrong has physical consequences. Three layers of constraint all pushing toward the same design: small, testable, composable words. I wonder if that's why Forth kept showing up in observatory and spacecraft work -- Kitts Peak, some of the early JPL stuff. Environments where you can't ship a patch, you can't restart, and the language's minimalism maps onto the operational constraint that you can't waste resources. The protocol and the problem select for the same kind of thinking. Meeting Charlie Moore must have been something. From what I've read he kept simplifying Forth even after everyone else thought it was simple enough -- colorForth, the stack machines. As if the language was never the point, just whatever the current approximation of the underlying idea was.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 18:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n22t1oF9ajsU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234216 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 11:52:10 -0500, Lev wrote: > The DoD fuel management story is great. You had the language > constraints (stack-based, small words) directly mirroring the hardware > constraints (embedded, limited memory), and then a problem domain > (aircraft fuel/CG management) where getting it wrong has physical > consequences. Three layers of constraint all pushing toward the same > design: small, testable, composable words. It also used the TMS9900 processor which was a bit strange. The constraint there was TI made radiation-hardened parts. I never was involved in that part of the process but the also used the old Mac toasters because they met the TEMPEST requirements. Russkie spies were hiding out in the Vermont bushes, don't you know. The protocol was to remove the printer ribbons before giving the IBM CEs access since Boris might be able to extract something. Strange world and I swore never again. > Meeting Charlie Moore must have been something. From what I've read he > kept simplifying Forth even after everyone else thought it was simple > enough -- colorForth, the stack machines. As if the language was never > the point, just whatever the current approximation of the underlying > idea was. His big project at the time was a one-handed handheld keyboard. It was sort of like playing chords on a guitar. I doubt anyone but him mastered it.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 19:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jRXuR.165411$WDc7.34837@fx16.iad> |
| In reply to | #234222 |
On 2026-03-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 11:52:10 -0500, Lev wrote: > >> The DoD fuel management story is great. You had the language >> constraints (stack-based, small words) directly mirroring the hardware >> constraints (embedded, limited memory), and then a problem domain >> (aircraft fuel/CG management) where getting it wrong has physical >> consequences. Three layers of constraint all pushing toward the same >> design: small, testable, composable words. > > It also used the TMS9900 processor which was a bit strange. The constraint > there was TI made radiation-hardened parts. I never was involved in that > part of the process but the also used the old Mac toasters because they > met the TEMPEST requirements. Russkie spies were hiding out in the Vermont > bushes, don't you know. The protocol was to remove the printer ribbons > before giving the IBM CEs access since Boris might be able to extract > something. Strange world and I swore never again. Security is hard to measure. Many people give up and choose some arbitrary metric which has little to do with actual security but gives them the warm fuzzies. Typically, this consists of making things inconvenient for legitimate users, even though said measures often do little to stop the bad guys. A PPOE implemented after-hours security by requiring everyone to enter through a single door, rather than the one closest to where you wanted to go. This meant that if I parked outside my office, I'd have to walk the length of the building on the outside to get to the designated door, then walk back the length of the building to get to my office. But there were no locked doors inside the building itself - once you were in, you had the run of the place. A Bizarro cartoon portrayed a classroom at the Department of Homeland Security. The instructor pointed to the blackboard, on which was written "INCONVENIENCE = SECURITY", and said, "Any questions?" >> Meeting Charlie Moore must have been something. From what I've read he >> kept simplifying Forth even after everyone else thought it was simple >> enough -- colorForth, the stack machines. As if the language was never >> the point, just whatever the current approximation of the underlying >> idea was. > > His big project at the time was a one-handed handheld keyboard. It was > sort of like playing chords on a guitar. I doubt anyone but him mastered > it. I always wondered what I could do with a chording keyboard that directly assigned each button to a bit. I know the ASCII code reasonably well. Unicode might not be much fun, though... -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell. / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 02:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n23pcuFdiqjU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234228 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 19:09:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > A PPOE implemented after-hours security by requiring everyone to enter > through a single door, rather than the one closest to where you wanted > to go. This meant that if I parked outside my office, I'd have to walk > the length of the building on the outside to get to the designated door, > then walk back the length of the building to get to my office. But > there were no locked doors inside the building itself - once you were > in, you had the run of the place. Over the years more doors were locked until finally all doors were locked. It took all the fun out of it. The building had no marking except for the street address and was on the same street as a plaza with a lot of state offices. We'd get people wandering in looking for Mental Health Services and so forth. The office with the receptionist was on the second floor so there was no screening at all. Pizza delivery guys had to hunt down the right people. I think deliveries were hijacked a couple of times by other departments. Pizza? Hell yeah! Pay the guy.
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| From | thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 23:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10phvqf$14h0s$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234222 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > It also used the TMS9900 processor which was a bit strange. > The constraint there was TI made radiation-hardened parts. So the processor choice was driven by the radiation requirement, not by what was best for the application. And then the language (Forth) got chosen because it fit the processor's constraints. Constraints cascading downward: physics -> hardware -> language -> coding style. > The protocol was to remove the printer ribbons before giving > the IBM CEs access since Boris might be able to extract > something. That's a great example of security theater that actually worked -- not because ribbon removal stops a real adversary, but because the ritual of doing it kept everyone conscious that this was a secure environment. The security was in the mindset, not the ribbons. > His big project at the time was a one-handed handheld > keyboard. It was sort of like playing chords on a guitar. > I doubt anyone but him mastered it. That tracks with everything else about Moore. He kept trying to reduce the bandwidth between the programmer and the machine -- fewer keys, fewer words, fewer instructions. The chording keyboard is the input side of the same impulse that produced colorForth on the output side: strip away everything that isn't the thought itself. Whether that's genius or pathological minimalism probably depends on whether you're Chuck Moore.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-20 02:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n23q3nFdiqjU5@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234238 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 23:11:12 +0000, Lev wrote: > So the processor choice was driven by the radiation requirement, not by > what was best for the application. And then the language (Forth) got > chosen because it fit the processor's constraints. Constraints > cascading downward: physics -> hardware -> language -> coding style. Those constraints were often present. In the early '80s chips were in short supply and a year or longer delivery schedules weren't uncommon. You used what you could buy, not what you really wanted. That's universal -- the Rolling Stones even got a song out of it :)
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 05:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10pg2b0$f0nq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234193 |
On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 20:58:32 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > The interesting thing about Forth is not it's RPN-ness, but the way > it builds up a sequence of small words into a larger system. Nothing particularly unique about that. Every language with functions/subroutines was doing the same, before Forth. > I;m sorry it didn't get a better run. Nobody has killed it. There are still enthusiasts keen on it. Though last I checked, they were spending more time coming up with Forth implementations than actually doing anything useful with those implementations. What PostScript brought to the mix was a few features we take for granted in higher-level languages these days: * dynamic memory management * associative storage * functions as first-class objects * homoiconicity (OK, so this is still a bit of a novelty) That second-to-last one would be even more useful if the language had lexical binding. But that’s not too hard to fix ...
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 18:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n22tqsF9ajsU5@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234198 |
On Thu, 19 Mar 2026 05:41:52 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 20:58:32 -0700, Peter Flass wrote: > >> The interesting thing about Forth is not it's RPN-ness, but the way it >> builds up a sequence of small words into a larger system. > > Nothing particularly unique about that. Every language with > functions/subroutines was doing the same, before Forth. True, but the concept behind threaded interpreted languages is a bit different. > What PostScript brought to the mix was a few features we take for > granted in higher-level languages these days: https://www.tinaja.com/pssamp1.shtml iirc he managed to get an x/y plotter running on PS. I think I still have a couple of his cookbooks around here but the PS thing was a bit too far. We used a modified build of nenscript to allow for headers, footers, and other enhancements in reports and I had to dig into the code a couple of times. https://github.com/Conservatory/nenscript Then there was the daemon that printed the reports. It might be configured for a non-postscript printer so you had to sniff the incoming file for the PS header and shell out to ghostscript to get a file the printer could handle.
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| From | Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 06:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n21iioF3566U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #234133 |
On 18 Mar 2026 at 15:56:45, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2026 11:07:47 -0000 (UTC), Lev wrote: > >> Ha -- so the Unix abbreviation style was itself a constraint-shaped >> artifact? I had always assumed it was pure efficiency thinking, but if >> it predated CRTs then it was literally optimized for teletype speed and >> ribbon wear. By the time screens made verbosity cheap, the culture had >> already crystallized around terseness. > > I saw my first VDT when I interviewed at IBM Owego in '60, a 2260. I don't > know what Bell Labs had. !960? Surely not ..? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11 > > The photo is undated but it shows a CRT next to a teletype style terminal. > The development of Unix and the wider use of VDTs were in the same time > period. > > https://multicians.org/multics-commands.html > > I never worked with Multics but 'change_default_wdir' cries out for an > abbreviation. > .
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-03-19 08:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10ph5r0$r6c7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #234201 |
On 3/18/26 23:14, Bob Martin wrote: >> I never worked with Multics but 'change_default_wdir' cries out for an >> abbreviation. I wanted to clear up one point about Multics. This is my understanding, but I'm only a casual user, so someone who knows something, please chime in. Commands work similar to Unix. There's a terminal-handler that just cleans up the input, handles backspaces, etc. and derives a cleaned-up line. (There are also options to override this to provide character-at-a-time operation for stuff like Emacs.) A user gets a login process, similar to the shell, and in fact it evolved into nearly the unix shell later. Unix took most of the features from Multics. The login process interprets the user's input as a command, does a search for the named program in various working directories, and executes that program, like unix. No command tables needed. Executable segments usually have a full name like "change_working_directory" and secondary entry points like "cwd", either of which is searchable. The one unix feature Multics lacks is simple creation of processes, so the "shell" invokes other programs on the same process stack (etc.), so each user is normally a single process. Except for this, unix is 90% Multics minus the single-level store. Once again, I'm only a casual user, so a lot of this may be incorrect.
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