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Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator

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  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator anthk@not.dev.null - 2026-08-17 23:57 +0200
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-18 00:07 +0000
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-08-18 11:51 +0000
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-18 22:15 -0400
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-18 22:13 -0400
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 07:32 +0000
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-08-23 07:40 -0700
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 22:07 +0000
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-24 07:27 +0800
            Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2026-08-24 01:31 +0000
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-25 15:02 -0400
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-23 23:36 -0400
    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-23 23:13 +0800
      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-08-23 11:20 -0700
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-23 22:11 +0000
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-24 07:28 +0800
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-23 23:39 -0400
        Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 01:15 +0800
          Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-25 03:28 +0800
            Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 12:20 +0800
              Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-25 15:34 +0000
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 09:35 -0700
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-25 17:00 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 20:07 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 16:59 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:13 +0800
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2026-08-25 11:22 -0700
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-25 21:43 +0000
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-26 15:34 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:08 +0800
                Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-28 20:12 +0800
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-08-28 18:14 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-28 21:02 -0400
                    Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 10:15 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 11:55 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:38 +0800
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:09 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-29 18:31 -0400
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-30 11:33 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-08-31 09:34 -0700
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 22:59 +0800
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 08:29 -0700
                              Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-02 12:36 -0700
                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 13:00 -0700
                                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... Babylon cuneiforms etched on bread? Exorcism? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 12:24 +0800
                                Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-02 21:55 +0000
                                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 04:44 +0000
                                    Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 04:57 +0000
                                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 05:29 +0000
                                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 06:57 +0000
                                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 10:06 +0000
                                        The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-03 18:29 +0800
                                          Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 08:02 -0700
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-03 15:49 +0000
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 14:08 -0400
                                              Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 11:34 -0700
                                                Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2026-09-03 18:01 -0400
                                                  Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-03 15:26 -0700
                                                Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-09-04 04:51 +0200
                                                  Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-04 04:27 +0000
                                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-04 12:52 +0800
                                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 08:15 -0700
                                                    Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2026-09-05 06:05 +0200
                                                      Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?) James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-09-05 09:13 +0000
                                                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 21:09 +0000
                                            Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Malcolm Purvis <malcolm@purvis.id.au> - 2026-09-04 06:49 +1000
                                              Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 21:27 +0000
                                  Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-09-03 08:28 -0700
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-09-02 15:37 -0400
                      Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 05:25 +0000
                        Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-29 13:35 +0800
                          Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:35 +0000
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-08-29 15:42 -0400
                              Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-08-29 21:07 +0000
                                Re: Origin Of .... "say what?" "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 18:00 +0800
                            Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:17 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Charles Hope <clh@candehope.me.uk> - 2026-08-29 09:45 +0000
                  Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-29 17:14 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 03:52 +0800
                    Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 04:24 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands & the Holy Roman Empire? 15th century?? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-08-30 16:47 +0800
                      Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-31 17:08 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-31 16:40 +0100
                          Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-03 00:06 +0800
                        Re: Origin Of ..... Darklands the video game? Medieval Europe? "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2026-09-02 23:02 +0800
               Tops-10 filename/extension representation [was Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-08-25 16:15 -0400
                Re: Tops-10 filename/extension representation [was Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator] Kragen Javier Sitaker <kragen@canonical.org> - 2026-09-05 10:14 -0300
                  Re: Tops-10 filename/extension representation [was Re: Origin Of Filename Extension Dot Separator] Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 21:11 +0000

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#235368

According to Mr. Chang Man-wai <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>:
>But in the naming method,
>which is the file name?
>Which is the file name extension? :)

I think the question doesn't make sense. The reason computer files have
extensions is to describe the format of the contents: text, executables,
spreadsheet, whatever. That makes it a lot easier to select the appropriate
software to process them. Microsoft famously got this wrong, by looking at the
contents of the file to decide how to process it instead of the name, so you can
have a mail attachment called CONTRACT.TXT which is in fact an executable full
of malware.

In paper files, it's generally obvious what kind of material is in the
folder, or if it's not, it doesn't matter since there's only one way to
process it, pull out the file and look at it.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#235369

On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 15:34:15 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> Microsoft famously got this wrong, by looking at the contents of the
> file to decide how to process it instead of the name, so you can have
> a mail attachment called CONTRACT.TXT which is in fact an executable
> full of malware.

That's actually not how that works at all. Windows *does* in fact rely
on the filename extension to determine the file type, but starting in
Windows 95 they set it to hide the extension for known file types by
default, presumably because extensions were too confusing for novice
users. But the extension is still there and still counts for the OS's
purposes, even though it's not displayed - so what malevolent parties
will do is name a file e.g. InnocentDocument.txt.exe in the knowledge
that this will display to the majority of users (and especially the
novice ones) as InnocentDocument.txt even though it's actually an EXE
and recognized as such by Windows.

Real genius decision, that :/

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#235370

John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 15:34:15 -0000 (UTC)
>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft famously got this wrong, by looking at the contents of the
>> file to decide how to process it instead of the name, so you can have
>> a mail attachment called CONTRACT.TXT which is in fact an executable
>> full of malware.
>
>That's actually not how that works at all. Windows *does* in fact rely
>on the filename extension to determine the file type, but starting in
>Windows 95 they set it to hide the extension for known file types by
>default, presumably because extensions were too confusing for novice
>users. But the extension is still there and still counts for the OS's
>purposes, even though it's not displayed - so what malevolent parties
>will do is name a file e.g. InnocentDocument.txt.exe in the knowledge
>that this will display to the majority of users (and especially the
>novice ones) as InnocentDocument.txt even though it's actually an EXE
>and recognized as such by Windows.
>
>Real genius decision, that :/

PLEASE TAKE CARE TO EXAMINE THE 'Newsgroups:' HEADER -BEFORE- POSTING.

[Removed crossposting to a bunch of screwy unrelated newsgroups]

Yeah.  Right up there with allowing executable content in email.

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#235413

On 8/26/2026 12:35 AM, John Ames wrote:
> 
> That's actually not how that works at all. Windows *does* in fact rely
> on the filename extension to determine the file type, but starting in
> Windows 95 they set it to hide the extension for known file types by
> default, presumably because extensions were too confusing for novice

It's called file association and you
can change it. But the graphical
user-interface to do it might not be
as easy as using commands. You are
allowed to name a text file HAHA.MP3
and open it with Notepad. :)


-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235442

On 28/08/2026 8:07 PM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:
> On 8/26/2026 12:35 AM, John Ames wrote:
>>
>> That's actually not how that works at all. Windows *does* in fact rely
>> on the filename extension to determine the file type, but starting in
>> Windows 95 they set it to hide the extension for known file types by
>> default, presumably because extensions were too confusing for novice
> 
> It's called file association and you
> can change it. But the graphical
> user-interface to do it might not be
> as easy as using commands. You are
> allowed to name a text file HAHA.MP3
> and open it with Notepad. :)
> 
> 

You can even create such a file with Notepad as well.  It's a little
known feature, that when you surround the filename with "quotation
marks.mp3" the automagic .txt extension is not added.  This worked for
me as recently with ten windows, but I did not yet attempt this after
installing one more window, with the total count being eleven.

Have you tried to create files in Notepad without the .txt filename?
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#235459

On 8/29/2026 4:59 PM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:

> 
> You can even create such a file with Notepad as well.  It's a little
> known feature, that when you surround the filename with "quotation
> marks.mp3" the automagic .txt extension is not added.  This worked...

Thanks.

-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235372

John Levine  scribbled something on Tuesday the 8/25/2026:
> According to Mr. Chang Man-wai <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>:

(crossposting put on a diet)

>> But in the naming method,
>> which is the file name?
>> Which is the file name extension? :)

By convention, a computer filename is the whole string identifying the 
file, but can also be used to describe the substring that is everything 
up to the extension (and its separator).  The extension is everything 
after the last separator.  In MSDOS days ... and other simple file 
systems,  like the CP/M ancestor of FAT ... the extension was the 3 
characters that fit into the directory entry structure field labeled 
"extension".

>
> I think the question doesn't make sense. The reason computer files have
> extensions is to describe the format of the contents: text, executables,
> spreadsheet, whatever. That makes it a lot easier to select the appropriate
> software to process them. Microsoft famously got this wrong, by looking at 
> the contents of the file to decide how to process it instead of the name, so 
> you can have a mail attachment called CONTRACT.TXT which is in fact an 
> executable full of malware.

I don't think this is what Microsoft did.  Unix is the OS that uses 
"magic" (special bytes at offset 0) to decode what a file is ... you 
can specify which shell is to execute a script, for instance.  (Linux 
has also adpted this technique.)

Microsoft is famous for trying to open a binary file in a text editor 
because it has a .txt extension.

> In paper files, it's generally obvious what kind of material is in the
> folder, or if it's not, it doesn't matter since there's only one way to
> process it, pull out the file and look at it.

There are plenty of situations where a librarian is dependent on a 
subject matter expert to identify what a book or paper file is.  And 
they may need help to identiify which expert is needed.

/dps

-- 
Trust, but verify.

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#235377

On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 11:22:58 -0700, Snidely wrote:

> By convention, a computer filename is the whole string identifying the
> file, but can also be used to describe the substring that is everything
> up to the extension (and its separator).  The extension is everything
> after the last separator.

On *nix systems, there is a command called “basename” to remove any
directory prefixes from a pathname, and also optionally any suffix.

So “suffix” is another term for “file extension” or “filename
extension”. On VMS I think they wanted to call it the “file type”.

> Unix is the OS that uses "magic" (special bytes at offset 0) to
> decode what a file is ... you can specify which shell is to execute
> a script, for instance. (Linux has also adpted this technique.)

You’re thinking of the “shebang” line to identify the program
interpreter at the start of a program script.

The concept of “magic numbers” is a bit more general than this. The
“libmagic” code (as used in the well-known “file” command) has a
fairly elaborate language for specifying which byte fields (or parts
thereof) to look at and what values to look for. For a non-trivial
example, here is the current contents of my /etc/magic file, with the
modification I came up with to the existing rules for recognizing
Blender files, to take into account the recent change to a new format:

    0		string	=BLENDER	Blender3D
    !:ext		blend
    >7		string	=_		pre-v5, saved as 32-bits
    >>8		string	=v		little endian
    >>>9		byte	x		with version %c.
    >>>10		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>11		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>0x40		string	=GLOB		\b.
    >>>>0x58	leshort	x		\b%.4d
    >>8		string	=V		big endian
    >>>9		byte	x		with version %c.
    >>>10		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>11		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>0x40		string	=GLOB		\b.
    >>>>0x58	beshort	x		\b%.4d
    >7		string	=-		pre-v5, saved as 64-bits
    >>8		string	=v		little endian
    >>9		byte	x		with version %c.
    >>10		byte	x		\b%c
    >>11		byte	x		\b%c
    >>0x44		string	=GLOB		\b.
    >>>0x60		leshort	x		\b%.4d
    >>8		string	=V		big endian
    >>>9		byte	x		with version %c.
    >>>10		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>11		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>0x44		string	=GLOB		\b.
    >>>>0x60	beshort	x		\b%.4d

    # Blender 5.0+
    >7		string =17    v5+,
    >>10		byte	x		format version %c
    >>>11		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>>13		byte	x		app version %c
    >>>>>14		byte	x		\b%c.
    >>>>>>15		byte	x		\b%c
    >>>>>>>16		byte	x		\b%c

> Microsoft is famous for trying to open a binary file in a text
> editor because it has a .txt extension.

Emacs can actually open binary files, and make edits on them. I have
used this to make patches to executables, on occasion.

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#235390

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>On Tue, 25 Aug 2026 11:22:58 -0700, Snidely wrote:
>
>> By convention, a computer filename is the whole string identifying the
>> file, but can also be used to describe the substring that is everything
>> up to the extension (and its separator).  The extension is everything
>> after the last separator.
>
>On *nix systems, there is a command called “basename” to remove any
>directory prefixes from a pathname, and also optionally any suffix.

basename(1) is a wrapper around the basename(3) library call, which
is defined by POSIX.

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#235443

On 26/08/2026 2:22 AM, Snidely wrote:
> John Levine  scribbled something on Tuesday the 8/25/2026:
>> According to Mr. Chang Man-wai <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>:
> 
> (crossposting put on a diet)
> 
>>> But in the naming method,
>>> which is the file name?
>>> Which is the file name extension? :)
> 
> By convention, a computer filename is the whole string identifying the 
> file, but can also be used to describe the substring that is everything 
> up to the extension (and its separator).  The extension is everything 
> after the last separator.  In MSDOS days ... and other simple file 
> systems,  like the CP/M ancestor of FAT ... the extension was the 3 
> characters that fit into the directory entry structure field labeled 
> "extension".
> 
>>
>> I think the question doesn't make sense. The reason computer files have
>> extensions is to describe the format of the contents: text, executables,
>> spreadsheet, whatever. That makes it a lot easier to select the 
>> appropriate
>> software to process them. Microsoft famously got this wrong, by 
>> looking at the contents of the file to decide how to process it 
>> instead of the name, so you can have a mail attachment called 
>> CONTRACT.TXT which is in fact an executable full of malware.
> 
> I don't think this is what Microsoft did.  Unix is the OS that uses 
> "magic" (special bytes at offset 0) to decode what a file is ... you can 
> specify which shell is to execute a script, for instance.  (Linux has 
> also adpted this technique.)

Microsoft also did this in MS-DOS.  It's also a little know feature,
that you can name your executables as .com or .exe and the operating
system does not care.  This /tradition/ has held up until at least
ten windows, where you can rename your .exe files as .com files and
they just continue to work as expected.  I also expect the eleven
window version of recent Microsoft operating systems to honor this
tradition.

> 
> Microsoft is famous for trying to open a binary file in a text editor 
> because it has a .txt extension.
> 
>> In paper files, it's generally obvious what kind of material is in the
>> folder, or if it's not, it doesn't matter since there's only one way to
>> process it, pull out the file and look at it.
> 
> There are plenty of situations where a librarian is dependent on a 
> subject matter expert to identify what a book or paper file is.  And 
> they may need help to identiify which expert is needed.
> 
> /dps
> 

Do you happen to know which subject matter expert knows the origin of
the .text name for code segments in object libraries?  I asked this
question a few years ago, here in alt.folklore.computers, but the veri-
table origin stumped everyone.  I believe the oldest example was given
by our very own Lynn, who referenced some punch card object format from
I.B.M. in the early-to-mid 60s.

/Why/ it was named TXT did not include.

I have since gotten the hint in some book or other this is a /loader
term/, but where loaders got this notion of /text/ for the unchangable
binary code, I still do not know.  Nor have I gotten around to read all
of extant 40s to early 60s literature, to see if it's ever mentioned by
happenstance.

So, if you do happen to know this subject matter expert, please invite
him or her to alt.folklore.computers, so we can renew this discusssion.


Thank you for coming to my TED talk in alt.folklore.computers!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#235414

On 8/25/2026 11:34 PM, John Levine wrote:
> 
> I think the question doesn't make sense. The reason computer files have
> extensions is to describe the format of the contents: text, executables,
> spreadsheet, whatever. That makes it a lot easier to select the appropriate
> ....
> In paper files, it's generally obvious what kind of material is in the
> folder, or if it's not, it doesn't matter since there's only one way to
> process it, pull out the file and look at it.


Because computer file names are text, NOT the
actual physical objects seen with your naked
eyes. Back in MS-DOS days, there were not
even graphics, audio and video files. Then
Windows and OS/2 arrived which offers File
Explorers to display thumbnails of the
object a file name referring to. BUT BUT,
they are still NOT the actual physical
objects. The thumbnail pictures are just
graphical file names, kind of like a
QR or bar code, but just more graphical.

You were too young as a computer users.
I lived the days when there were only
text in computers. Database files are
just texts and textual labels. :)


-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235419

According to Mr. Chang Man-wai <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>:
>On 8/25/2026 11:34 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> 
>> I think the question doesn't make sense. The reason computer files have
>> extensions is to describe the format of the contents: text, executables,
>> spreadsheet, whatever. That makes it a lot easier to select the appropriate
>> ....
>> In paper files, it's generally obvious what kind of material is in the
>> folder, or if it's not, it doesn't matter since there's only one way to
>> process it, pull out the file and look at it.
>
>
>Because computer file names are text, NOT the
>actual physical objects seen with your naked
>eyes. ...

Well, yes.

>You were too young as a computer users.
>I lived the days when there were only
>text in computers. Database files are
>just texts and textual labels. :)

Uh huh.  I used a time-shared PDP-6 from real Teletypes in about 1969.
It had dot separators in the filenames, too.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#235430

"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:

> You were too young as a computer users.

Careful, youngster.  Many of us here are in our 70s.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#235432 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 8/29/2026 9:02 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> You were too young as a computer users.
> 
> Careful, youngster.  Many of us here are in our 70s.
> 

Acknowledge.

So the kids and teens nowadays hate
typing abcde....xyz? They just want
pictures and sound? That's SAD and
might ruin our civilization!!

Why? Some evil beings are trying
to destroy us by first destroying
our languages and histories??

Islam? Again? :)

-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235438 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 8/29/2026 10:15 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:
> 
> So the kids and teens nowadays hate
> typing abcde....xyz? They just want
> pictures and sound? That's SAD and
> might ruin our civilization!!

Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like
icons and emojis. While Babylon
cuneiforms have just lines.

Is there a similar trend in our
computer world? Terrifying one?

-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235445 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 29/08/2026 11:55 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:
> On 8/29/2026 10:15 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:
>>
>> So the kids and teens nowadays hate
>> typing abcde....xyz? They just want
>> pictures and sound? That's SAD and
>> might ruin our civilization!!
> 
> Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like
> icons and emojis. While Babylon
> cuneiforms have just lines.
> 
> Is there a similar trend in our
> computer world? Terrifying one?
> 

Dear Mr. Chang Man-wai,

Yes, there is a similar trend, and you would know this if you had
bothered to learn Egyptian hieroglyphs in juniour high.  I presume
you took some other subject instead.

Now, due to the large number of meanings associated with each hiero-
glyph, the people of Egypt, at least the subset of which, which could
read hieroglyphs, called ssh [1] or /sesh/ if I remember correctly, for
"scribe," appended a /determinative/ which added meaning to the previous
consonants.  This can make learning the hieroglyphs slightly complicated
at first, because you'll need to learn to read not only the consonants,
but also the determinatives, which sometimes use the same sign in diff-
erent contexts -- that is, if I remember correctly.

I'm sure you're familiar with this kind of writing in /Classical
Chinese/, so I'll not expand upon this with ASCII art for the moment.

Interested readers can turn their attention to the video course avail-
able for streaming, but not download, at

  
https://shop.thegreatcourses.com/decoding-the-secrets-of-egyptian-hieroglyphs

where a famous Egyptologist is willing to teach you all about reading
hieroglyphs from the very start.  It's a great supplement to Gardiner's
/Egyptian Grammar/ which I'm sure everyone here in alt.folklore.com-
puters still have in their library since their juniour high school days.

For the people in alt.magick, I'll also add that the very same Egypt-
ologist has written a book called /Ancient Egyptian Magic/, and is
highly recommended, albeit not teaching the spells themselves.  That
will have to be a /self study/, since this is an Egyptological coverage
of the subject of magic in Ancient Egypt.

As I was getting to, these kinds of /determinatives/ have now been re-
enacted by modern teenagers, and perhaps older individuals, in the form
of appending "emojis" -- I believe this word is of Japanese origin, and
is short for /emotional character/ but I'm willing to be corrected on
that front -- to their sentences.  This sometimes adds character, but I
find some of it just noise, and tend to refrain from such additions in
long form communication such as Usenet.

However, on IRC, I tend to use C: as a /smiley/ and that confuses a lot
of people; especially when the name of the channel is #dos.  There, new-
comers who haven't met me before tend to believe I'm trying to switch to
the "C" drive in a DOS window somewhere.

Anyway, since you, Mr. Chan Man-wai, find such notions terrifying, all I
can suggest is to have that fear treated by a practicioner of

                              alt.magick.


Thank you for coming to my simulcast in alt.folklore.computers, and alt.
magick!



[1] My hieroglyphs have gotten rusty [2], and I do not remember how
exactly the consonants are spelled, but the sign is readily recognize-
able.  To you it may look like traffic lights hanging on a pole, but is
in fact reed pen with three ink bottles on a small tray.  You can look
it up in your copy of Gardiner's /Egyptian Grammar/, which I'm sure you
have had since juniour high school.
     Side note, the "ssh" here is unrelated to the concept of a a /secure
shell/ and cryptography; for which you can direct your attention to
sci.crypt.

[2] Unrelated to the programming language Rust, see the up-coming news-
group comp.lang.rust, or comp.lang.misc in the mean time.
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#235458 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 8/29/2026 5:38 PM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
> 
> Dear Mr. Chang Man-wai,
> 
> ...


Thank you for writing me a letter
in the good, old way. So I must
read, analyze and reply properly.

I suspect you are persuading me
to study about ancient magic by
learning ancient Egypt's
hieroglyphs. It's likely also
your faith about this path.

Personally, I find hieroglyphs
interesting when I studied
about history in junior school.
They were written like a piece
of art.

But if you wanna search for
magic, maybe you should ignore
all these. Magic exists NOT
just in Egypt, China and Japan.
Maybe the Path of God(s) is
more proper. You use magic to
do something. So what is your
intent and motive? Why?

Thank you again for a true
letter.

May the Force and farces be with you!


[+]-----------------------------------

Human language(s):

Chinese
Japanese
Egyptian

Computer terms:

Rust
SSH
Crytography
DOS (C:)
emoji

Book(s):

/Egyptian Grammar/
/Ancient Egyptian Magic/
/decoding-the-secrets-of-egyptian-hieroglyphs/

Usenet newsgroup(s):

alt.folklore.computers
alt.magick
sci.crypt
comp.lang.rust
comp.lang.misc



-- 

    @~@   Simplicity is Beauty! Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch!
   / v \  May the Force and farces be with you! Live long and prosper!!
  /( _ )\ https://sites.google.com/site/changmw/
    ^ ^   https://github.com/changmw/changmw
          The game is afoot... Meow...

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#235472 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:

> On 8/29/2026 10:15 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:

>> So the kids and teens nowadays hate typing abcde....xyz? They just want
>> pictures and sound? That's SAD and might ruin our civilization!!

> Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like icons and emojis. While Babylon cuneiforms
> have just lines.

Both Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform have a concept of
determinatives, prescribed forms which indicate something about the following
word (such as Sumerian DINGIR "a god's name follows").

Later Egyptian uses some symbols for their sound values.

Old Persian cuneiform (as n the Behistun inscriptions) are entirely alphabetic.

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#235474 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On 30/08/2026 6:31 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:
> "Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 8/29/2026 10:15 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:
> 
>>> So the kids and teens nowadays hate typing abcde....xyz? They just want
>>> pictures and sound? That's SAD and might ruin our civilization!!
> 
>> Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like icons and emojis. While Babylon cuneiforms
>> have just lines.
> 
> Both Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform have a concept of
> determinatives, prescribed forms which indicate something about the following
> word (such as Sumerian DINGIR "a god's name follows").

Dear esteemed Rich Alderson,

I believe you need to brush up on your Egyptian hieroglyphs.  How long
ago did you study them?  From the previous paragraph, it sounds like you
haven't used any since the high days of Sumer, some time before before
Abraham left Ur.

In any case, /modern Egyptian hieroglyphs/, and this includes the Pyra-
mid texts onwards, we have the determinatives /after/ the word.  This is
not really spelled out in Gardiner's /Egyptian Grammar/, so let's look
at the paragraph in question, page 31, section 23. [1]

 >>> [Section] 23.  In several of the examples quoted in [section] 22,
 >>> the ideogram follows one or more phonograms and ends the word.  In
 >>> cases such as these it is called a /determinative/, because it ap-
 >>> pears to determine the meaning of the foregoing sounds-signs and to
 >>> define that meaning in a general way.

Here the key phrase is "ends the word" and does not start it.

And I'll just refer to the start of Lesson II, [section] 22, page 30 for
people interested in the referenced hieroglyphs, as here in alt.folk-
lore.computers I stick to the A.S.C.I.I. subset of Unicode.  After all,
I expect everyone here in alt.folklore.computers to still have a physi-
cal copy from their days of juniour high school.

> 
> Later Egyptian uses some symbols for their sound values.

How later?  As far as I know, that was already established in the Pyra-
mid texts.  Though I admit I haven't read James P. Allen's /The Ancient
Egyptian Pyramid Texts/ yet.  Which seems to be conveniently available
in this library for your reading pleasure.

  
https://archive.org/details/the-ancient-egyptian-pyramid-texts_202103/page/n9/mode/2up

And collectors of rare texts can also purchase a hardcopy on the dreaded
Amazon,

   https://www.amazon.com/dp/1628371145

which I'm sure everyone here in alt.folklore.computers is now ordering
from Barnes & Noble.

> 
> Old Persian cuneiform (as n the Behistun inscriptions) are entirely alphabetic.
> 

I'm afraid I never learned Persian, neither old nor new; so I cannot
comment on that.


Happy studies of the Egyptian hieroglyphs!


[1] For people unfamiliar with the section symbol in typography, here in
alt.folklore.computers, will be delighted to know these are the /scope
symbols/ in CPL, the precursor to BCPL, which is -- as everyone here
knows -- the precursor to B, and then C.  Both of which used { } for
scope since that's what the A.S.C.I.I. dictated instead.
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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#235497 — Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?

On Sat, 29 Aug 2026 11:55:20 +0800
"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:

> Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like icons and emojis. While Babylon
> cuneiforms have just lines.

Cuneiform is pictographic in origin too; but it was developed by
scribes who mainly used wedge-shaped reeds to stamp on clay tablets,
rather than ink and pen to write on papyrus (or paint on walls,) so the
shapes were more abstract than hieroglyphs. IIRC, as it changed over
time the characters eventually became unrecognizable as even abstract
pictures unless you compare them against the earlier forms.

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