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Chip shortage--use relays

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  Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-07 12:28 -0700
    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-07 20:48 +0100
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-07 16:40 -0400
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-13 15:25 -0700
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-07-13 23:28 +0000
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-14 00:22 +0000
            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Freddy1X <freddy1X@indyX.netX> - 2021-07-13 21:00 -0400
            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-07-14 02:41 -0300
              Re: Chip shortage--use relays J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-07-14 05:57 -0400
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-14 18:53 -0400
    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-07 20:42 +0100
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> - 2021-07-07 23:25 -0700
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-13 15:23 -0700
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Robert Netzlof <rnetzlof@gmail.com> - 2021-07-14 12:43 -0700
            Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-16 11:10 -0700
    Re: Chip shortage--use relays antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-07-13 23:17 +0000
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-13 19:28 -0400
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2021-07-14 11:33 +0000
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-14 13:06 +0100
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2021-08-17 12:47 -0500
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-08-17 20:27 +0100
    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-14 10:12 -0700
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-14 19:29 +0100
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-14 18:40 +0000
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-07-14 16:47 -0300
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-14 18:18 -0700
            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-07-16 02:26 -0300
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays greymaus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-07-15 19:36 +0000
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-ugr-this> - 2021-07-15 07:27 -0700
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-15 14:04 -0700
            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 00:00 +0000
              Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-15 20:43 -0400
                Re: Chip shortage--use relays Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-16 10:56 -0700
              Re: Chip shortage--use relays songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2021-07-15 20:46 -0400
              Re: Chip shortage--use relays Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-07-16 02:53 -0300
                Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-16 08:08 -0400
                  Re: Chip shortage--use relays gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-16 13:20 +0100
                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-07-16 16:27 -0400
                  Re: Chip shortage--use relays Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 16:32 +0000
                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-07-16 16:49 +0000
                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 19:14 -0400
                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-16 11:54 -0700
                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 22:40 +0000
                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2021-07-16 17:28 -0300
                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-07-16 22:40 +0000
                        Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-20 11:41 -0700
                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-odi-this> - 2021-07-17 07:18 -0700
                  Re: Chip shortage--use relays Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-16 10:56 -0700
                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-16 11:51 -0700
                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-07-16 19:51 +0000
                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-17 07:06 -0700
                        Re: Chip shortage--use relays scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-17 14:42 +0000
                          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-17 17:29 +0100
                            Re: Chip shortage--use relays greymaus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-07-18 07:52 +0000
                            Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-20 11:47 -0700
                              Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-20 20:13 +0100
                        Re: Chip shortage--use relays usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-07-17 20:39 +0000
                          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-18 06:28 +0100
                            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-18 07:46 -0700
                          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-18 07:45 -0700
                            Re: Chip shortage--use relays J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 11:15 -0400
                            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 11:18 -0400
                              Re: Chip shortage--use relays J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 14:08 -0400
                                Re: Chip shortage--use relays John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-07-18 19:41 +0000
                                  Re: Chip shortage--use relays J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 16:08 -0400
                                Re: Chip shortage--use relays Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 16:43 -0400
                                Re: Chip shortage--use relays scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-18 23:19 +0000
                                Re: Chip shortage--use relays "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-r25-this> - 2021-07-19 08:26 -0700
                                  Re: Chip shortage--use relays scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-19 16:50 +0000
                                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-07-19 18:13 +0100
                                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-19 18:51 +0000
                                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-07-20 18:05 +0000
                                    Re: Chip shortage--use relays "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-f2b-this> - 2021-07-20 07:36 -0700
                                      Re: Chip shortage--use relays scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-07-20 16:17 +0000
                                  Re: Chip shortage--use relays Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2021-07-19 20:13 +0000
                          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-07-18 16:30 -0700
                        Re: Chip shortage--use relays Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-18 01:53 -0500
                          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2021-07-18 08:25 -0600
                        Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-20 11:45 -0700
                          Re: Chip shortage--use relays Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2021-07-21 17:30 -0500
                            Re: Chip shortage--use relays greymaus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2021-07-22 10:46 +0000
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> - 2021-07-15 11:09 -0700
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays cmadams@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) - 2021-07-15 22:07 -0500
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-16 11:09 -0700
          Re: Chip shortage--use relays J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-07-16 17:25 -0400
            Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-17 07:09 -0700
              Re: Chip shortage--use relays Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2021-07-17 07:11 -0700
              Re: Chip shortage--use relays J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-07-17 11:48 -0400
        Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-20 11:52 -0700
      Re: Chip shortage--use relays undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> - 2021-07-16 11:49 -0700
    Re: Chip shortage--use relays John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-07-16 01:51 +0000

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#218286 — Chip shortage--use relays

There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
talking about Famous Amos cookies.  Even new cars are in short
supply.

But here's a solution.  Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
how about solid durable relays?  Multiple vendors to choose from.

"Relays shrug off a short dose of overheating.  Give that to a solid
state device and it's ruined forever."

"Transit voltages don't bother relays.  But high voltage short
duration spikes can be sure death to a semiconductor".

Notice all the things they can do, and how sturdy they are built.  Some serve
in airliners.  They should be able to do everything a car chip can do.  There are many listed since there are so many choices.  Take a look:

US&S flasher relay--red light pentrates fog
https://books.google.com/books?id=uZ_mAAAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=railway%20union%20flasher%20relay&pg=RA1-PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false

US&S flasher relay--rugged construction, AC or DC
https://books.google.com/books?id=jfc6AAAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=%22railway%20signaling%22%20%22north%20electric%20manufacturing%22&pg=RA2-PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false

US&S general purpose relay--dual armature, two groups of contacts.
Note big heavy construction.
https://books.google.com/books?id=hYLNAAAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=north%20multiple%20contact%20relay&pg=RA1-PT2#v=onepage&q&f=false

adlake incubator control relay
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/51/Electronics-1951-06-OCR-Page-0033.pdf#search=%22adams%20westlake%22

adlake steam plant control relay
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/51/Electronics-1951-11-OCR-Page-0227.pdf#search=%22adams%20westlake%22

adlake airborne
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/52/Electronics-1952-08-OCR-Page-0084.pdf#search=%22adams%20westlake%22

AE Plugs into circuit cards, has heavy duty bearing pin
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/55/Electronics-1955-07-OCR-Page-0235.pdf#search=%22dependable%20relays%22

AE magic of electrical control
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/40s/Electronics-1945-02-OCR-Page-0046.pdf#search=%22new%20class%20b%20relay%22

AE class B durability
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/40s/Electronics-1945-04-OCR-Page-0042.pdf#search=%22new%20class%20b%20relay%22

North This is a 'brain cell':
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/51/Electronics-1951-04-OCR-Page-0242.pdf#search=%22brain%20cell%22

North automatic switching
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/51/Electronics-1951-08-OCR-Page-0210.pdf#search=%22galion%22

North gang relay
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/51/Electronics-1951-09-OCR-Page-0232.pdf#search=%22galion%22

Clare airline reservation
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/50s/53/Electronics-1953-02-OCR-Page-0025.pdf#search=%22american%20airline%20reservations%22

Clare airborne radio
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/40s/Electronics-1945-04-OCR-Page-0034.pdf#search=%22clare%20mobile%22

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#218289

undefined Hancock-4 wrote:

> Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays?

Sounds good (literally)

<https://youtu.be/_j544ELauus?t=783>

but why rely on electromagnets? just use mechanical logic

<https://youtu.be/udCpBsylfIw?t=189>

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#218292

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 20:48:49 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
> undefined Hancock-4 wrote:
>
>> Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
>> how about solid durable relays?
>
> Sounds good (literally)
>
> <https://youtu.be/_j544ELauus?t=783>
>
> but why rely on electromagnets? just use mechanical logic
>
> <https://youtu.be/udCpBsylfIw?t=189>

Rubbish relays (yes, I just read about SSR, but just because... :-). Use
vacuum tubes! They're smaller and consume so much less electricity. ;-)

But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
of view) to competitors.

There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.
-- 
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0

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#218378

On Wednesday, July 7, 2021 at 4:40:39 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage, 
> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for 
> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime 
> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point 
> of view) to competitors. 

Years ago Ford owned Philco and GM owned Delco.  I don't know about
Delco, but Philco was big into electronics.  Bitsavers has a ton of manuals.

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#218380

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> 
> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
> of view) to competitors.
> 
> There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
> know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.

IIUC shortage is result of "optimizing cost".  Car makers did not
keep stock and to get low prices ordered well in advance.  They
reduced orders due to low demand for cars.  When demand came back
fabs were booked for more profitable computers and phones, so
car manufactures must wait.  In few months everything should be
back to normal.

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

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#218383

antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl writes:
>Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> 
>> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
>> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
>> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
>> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
>> of view) to competitors.
>> 
>> There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
>> know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.
>
>IIUC shortage is result of "optimizing cost".  Car makers did not
>keep stock and to get low prices ordered well in advance. 

Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
code and started charging taxes on inventory.  That, more
than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
systems. (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
because of the change in the law
).

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#218384

Scott Lurndal wrote:

> antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl writes:
( cuts )
> 
> Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
> code and started charging taxes on inventory.  That, more
> than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
> systems. (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
> spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
> because of the change in the law
> ).
-- 
Are companies still doing that thing in California where because of punitive 
taxes, it is more economical to pack up whole railroad cars of inventory and 
move it out of state for a few days a year?

Freddy,
talk about busy-work.

Danger!  Never unplug refrigerator.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/|  I may be demented                          \|
/|                      but I'm not crazy!     \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
*    SPAyM trap:  there is no X in my address   *

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#218389

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
> code and started charging taxes on inventory.  That, more
> than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
> systems. 

Was that Congress or was that Thor Power Tool (SCOTUS, 1979)?

Seriously shpxrq hc the publishing industry -- books going to
remainder sales or the pulper and out of print a year after original
publication.

Somebody more versed than I in the arcana of tax law and the chip
industry required to say if that's why car companies don't maintain
inventory.

> (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
> spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
> because of the change in the law).

Never mind that Thor decision ended a legally dubious tax dodge.
Books in print, spare parts and such homely items as rivets became
problematic. There's thousnads of kinds of rivets differing in
material, diameter, length, finish, tolerance, head type and over-all
type.  A rivet company gets an industrial order for, say, 100,000 soft
iron, 3/16" diameter, 5/8" long, parkerized finish, pan head rivets.
Time and cost to do set-up is a substantial but one-time expense
avearged over 100,000 units.  So they make 150,000 and put 50,000 in
inventory.  Now I can order 100 rivets for (say) $0.01 each.  When
inventory is a liability, I have to buy 100,000 or pay (say) $1.00
each to cover set-up.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#218391

On 14 Jul 2021 02:41:32 -0300, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> Back in the early 80's, congress under Reagan changed the tax
>> code and started charging taxes on inventory.  That, more
>> than anything else, drove the industry to just-in-time inventory
>> systems. 
>
>Was that Congress or was that Thor Power Tool (SCOTUS, 1979)?

Neither.  It was some regulator at the IRS.  The Supreme Court had a
chance to step on them--it didn't.  Congress has had abundant
opportunity to step on them.  It hasn't.  And so the regulation, not
enacted by anybody answerable to the People of the United States,
stands.  And so we no longer have companies maintaining stocks of
spare parts in perpetuity.

>Seriously shpxrq hc the publishing industry -- books going to
>remainder sales or the pulper and out of print a year after original
>publication.
>
>Somebody more versed than I in the arcana of tax law and the chip
>industry required to say if that's why car companies don't maintain
>inventory.

If you want to know the real why of that, I suggest reading "Toyota
Production System" by Taiichi Ohno, who invented same.  "Just in time"
isn't the way it is implemented by Toyota though, it's right on time
and to the right place.  

>> (that was also the year that Burroughs discarded all the
>> spare parts for mechanical adding machines and accounting machines
>> because of the change in the law).
>
>Never mind that Thor decision ended a legally dubious tax dodge.
>Books in print, spare parts and such homely items as rivets became
>problematic. There's thousnads of kinds of rivets differing in
>material, diameter, length, finish, tolerance, head type and over-all
>type.  A rivet company gets an industrial order for, say, 100,000 soft
>iron, 3/16" diameter, 5/8" long, parkerized finish, pan head rivets.
>Time and cost to do set-up is a substantial but one-time expense
>avearged over 100,000 units.  So they make 150,000 and put 50,000 in
>inventory.  Now I can order 100 rivets for (say) $0.01 each.  When
>inventory is a liability, I have to buy 100,000 or pay (say) $1.00
>each to cover set-up.

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#218401

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 23:28:50 +0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> 
>> But serious, since also car manufacturers are hit hard by the shortage,
>> some could build a fab and only provide chips and other components for
>> their own if there is another problem in the future. In the meantime
>> selling chips (overpriced, that it makes sense from the economical point
>> of view) to competitors.
>> 
>> There are probably only a few car makers with financial background and
>> know-how be able to do this. I suppose Tesla is one.
>
> IIUC shortage is result of "optimizing cost".  Car makers did not
> keep stock and to get low prices ordered well in advance.  They
> reduced orders due to low demand for cars.  When demand came back
> fabs were booked for more profitable computers and phones, so
> car manufactures must wait.  In few months everything should be
> back to normal.

But I suppose when manufacturer A has his own fab, in normal times that
fab produces chips for manufacturer A and sells surplus to B, C...

If demand for cars wanes the fab produces less. But when demand comes
back it's more likely the fab can produce enough chips for manufacturer A,
but does not longer sell to B or C.

But like Commodore who first had chips from Texas Instruments. They at
some point charged more and Commodore was lucky to MOS to produce their
own chips to prices way below market price.
-- 
Andreas

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#218290

On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
> talking about Famous Amos cookies.  Even new cars are in short
> supply.
> 
> But here's a solution.  Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays?  Multiple vendors to choose from.

	Many years ago I got involved in an attempt to repair a "teaching
machine" that used a scroll of paper to ask questions and buttons to accept
answers (with holes in the paper for instructions). The whole thing was
driven by about a hundred relays some of which were sticking
intermittently. We never did get it to work reliably.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#218301

On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 6:00:04 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 2021 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT) 
> undefined Hancock-4 <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote: 
> 
> > There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not 
> > talking about Famous Amos cookies. Even new cars are in short 
> > supply. 
> > 
> > But here's a solution. Instead of funky unreliable computer chips, 
> > how about solid durable relays? Multiple vendors to choose from.
.
> Many years ago I got involved in an attempt to repair a "teaching 
> machine" that used a scroll of paper to ask questions and buttons to accept 
> answers (with holes in the paper for instructions). The whole thing was 
> driven by about a hundred relays some of which were sticking 
> intermittently. We never did get it to work reliably. 
.
Some early computers used relays.  They were typically used in card
readers and card punches, but found use elsewhere to turn on lights.
Pilot ACE (1951) and DEUCE used them extensively.  They were used
in the power supply to turn on the motor in the card reader/punch,
help in the passage of the cards through the mechanism, display bits
on the console, and in positioning the moving heads on the drum.
The latter were high-speed relays (response time 4 milliseconds).
All had to be highly reliable.

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#218377

On Thursday, July 8, 2021 at 2:25:46 AM UTC-4, Robin Vowels wrote:


> Some early computers used relays. They were typically used in card 
> readers and card punches, but found use elsewhere to turn on lights. 
> Pilot ACE (1951) and DEUCE used them extensively. They were used 
> in the power supply to turn on the motor in the card reader/punch, 
> help in the passage of the cards through the mechanism, display bits 
> on the console, and in positioning the moving heads on the drum. 
> The latter were high-speed relays (response time 4 milliseconds). 
> All had to be highly reliable.

In the 1960s IBM offered relays for sale, advertising in trade magazines.
Perhaps surplus from its operations.

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#218398

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, undefined Hancock-4 wrote:
> 
> In the 1960s IBM offered relays for sale, advertising in trade magazines. 
> 
Oddly enough, also advertised in Model Railroader.

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#218423

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 3:43:23 PM UTC-4, Robert Netzlof wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 6:23:26 PM UTC-4, undefined Hancock-4 wrote: 
> > 
> > In the 1960s IBM offered relays for sale, advertising in trade magazines. 
> >
> Oddly enough, also advertised in Model Railroader.

Here are some IBM ads.  

Police communications, numerical control 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/68/Electronics-1968-06-24-OCR-Page-0122.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/68/Electronics-1968-06-24-OCR-Page-0123.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22

Elevators 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-03-31-OCR-Page-0116.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-03-31-OCR-Page-0117.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22

Control system 2 pgs
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-01-20-OCR-Page-0132.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22
https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Engineering-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/60s/69/Electronics-1969-01-20-OCR-Page-0133.pdf#search=%22ibm%20wire%20contact%20relay%22

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#218379

undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
> talking about Famous Amos cookies.  Even new cars are in short
> supply.
> 
> But here's a solution.  Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> how about solid durable relays?  Multiple vendors to choose from.

Durable?  Relays are rated for milions of cycles.  If you try
to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
and it failed before printing login prompt".

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

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#218381

On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 23:17:31 +0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
>
> undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
>> talking about Famous Amos cookies.  Even new cars are in short
>> supply.
>> 
>> But here's a solution.  Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
>> how about solid durable relays?  Multiple vendors to choose from.
>
> Durable?  Relays are rated for milions of cycles.  If you try
> to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
> quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
> and it failed before printing login prompt".

He probably referred to a Solid State Relay
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_relay>, which has no movable parts.
-- 
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0

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#218393

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 23:17:31 +0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
> >
> > undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> >> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
> >> talking about Famous Amos cookies.  Even new cars are in short
> >> supply.
> >> 
> >> But here's a solution.  Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
> >> how about solid durable relays?  Multiple vendors to choose from.
> >
> > Durable?  Relays are rated for milions of cycles.  If you try
> > to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
> > quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
> > and it failed before printing login prompt".
> 
> He probably referred to a Solid State Relay
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_relay>, which has no movable parts.

I doubt.  In part I skipped he wrote:

: "Transit voltages don't bother relays.  But high voltage short
: duration spikes can be sure death to a semiconductor".

Manufacturer references were about mechanical relays too.

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

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#218394

On 14/07/2021 00:17, antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:
> undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> There are news reports about a chip shortage, and they're not
>> talking about Famous Amos cookies.  Even new cars are in short
>> supply.
>>
>> But here's a solution.  Instead of funky unreliable computer chips,
>> how about solid durable relays?  Multiple vendors to choose from.
>
> Durable?  Relays are rated for milions of cycles.  If you try
> to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
> quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
> and it failed before printing login prompt".
>

Westinghouse Brake And Signal company were famed for their
"Q Relay" used in railway signalling whereby one half of the closing
contact was platinum and t'other was carbon.

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#218592

 > Durable?  Relays are rated for milions of cycles.  If you try
 > to boot Linux on your relay computer, relays will wear out
 > quite early during boot: "Dear Sir, I turned your computer on
 > and it failed before printing login prompt".

Friend of mine was responsible for the campus firewall some years ago.
Campus is big, multiple gigabits each way at the time was lots, it was
not easy to get equipment that could firewall it.  There was a firewall
software bug involving, iirc, one of the instant messenger protocols.
Friend arranged to capture the event happening, which was also not easy.

Several rounds with vendor support.  Vendor engineer finally pipes up,
"but that's one in a million".  Friend does quick arithmetic and replies
"so, about every 17 seconds on my network."  Extended silence.  "Oh."

Everything has a scale.

De

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