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LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all?

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  LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 10:57 +0100
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-09-14 12:10 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 14:09 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 14:23 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-14 16:36 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 18:44 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> - 2020-09-15 14:14 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? "Massimo M." <massimo79m@gmail.com> - 2020-09-20 14:50 -0700
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-20 18:44 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 00:07 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-21 07:08 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? "Massimo M." <massimo79m@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 02:59 -0700
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 00:06 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-21 08:36 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-21 13:15 +0100
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2020-09-21 12:30 +0000
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-26 16:25 +0100
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-26 18:01 +0000
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2020-09-26 18:12 +0000
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-09-26 22:14 -0300
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-26 14:27 -0400
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-26 20:20 +0100
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-27 10:38 -0700
                        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 15:54 -0400
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-27 08:14 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-09-14 14:25 -0500
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-26 12:05 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-09-15 18:52 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0100
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-14 14:04 -0400
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 19:23 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-14 19:57 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-14 22:07 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 10:47 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 12:28 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-14 22:16 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Chris <xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> - 2020-09-14 22:57 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-15 05:59 +0100
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-14 22:28 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-15 15:47 -0400
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 18:49 -0700
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 04:30 +0000
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 09:26 +0100
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 09:28 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-15 10:55 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 12:34 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2020-09-15 09:03 -0500
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 06:16 -0700
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2020-09-15 15:52 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-15 15:53 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 17:34 +0100
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-15 17:54 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 20:25 +0100
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:31 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-15 22:13 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-16 10:10 +0100
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-15 08:41 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 12:28 +0100
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 08:15 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 08:29 -0400
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 09:46 -0400
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 17:16 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 18:02 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 18:47 -0400
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Timothy McCaffrey <timcaffrey420@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 12:56 -0700
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? f6k <f6k@huld.re> - 2020-09-21 22:45 +0200
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-21 21:05 +0000
                        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? f6k <f6k@huld.re> - 2020-09-22 10:24 +0200
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Timothy McCaffrey <timcaffrey420@gmail.com> - 2020-09-21 17:19 -0700
                        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? f6k <f6k@huld.re> - 2020-09-22 10:23 +0200
                          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Timothy McCaffrey <timcaffrey420@gmail.com> - 2020-09-22 15:02 -0700
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-09-22 12:51 +0000
                      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-22 15:21 -0400
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-09-15 20:32 +0000
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-15 23:22 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-15 21:14 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-16 08:04 +0100
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-09-16 17:42 +0000
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-09-16 20:25 +0000
                    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 18:28 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-18 20:40 +0000
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-09-15 13:52 -0400
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-15 18:49 -0700
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-09-16 06:00 -0400
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-09-26 14:24 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-26 11:07 -0400
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-09-26 17:49 +0100
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2020-09-26 17:47 +0000
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-27 10:38 -0700
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-27 08:07 +0000
        Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-27 07:47 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 07:50 -0400
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 10:05 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 12:32 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 13:05 -0400
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-09-27 10:38 -0700
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-09-27 15:56 -0400
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-28 08:53 +0000
                Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Stefan Möding <Sep2020.5.kill-9@spamgourmet.com> - 2020-09-29 08:21 +0200
                  Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-29 08:13 +0000
          Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-27 22:29 +0000
            Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-09-28 08:56 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-09-28 16:35 +0000
              Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-10-07 18:14 +0000
    Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Kelli Halliburton <kelli217@gmail.com> - 2020-10-09 14:07 -0700
      Re: LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all? Stewart Russell <scruss@gmail.com> - 2020-11-18 10:18 -0800

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#214338

On 16 Sep 2020 20:25:07 GMT, Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 17:42:52 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago. Someone
>> mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated that soon you'd
>> have a 3090 in your wristwatch.  "Great," our guy observed, "you can
>> boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."
>
>I ran VAX/VMS on my phone, some years ago. Someone had ported SIMH, but 
>then it broke becuase it depended on some other broken app.

I understand that it actually is possible to run Z/OS on an iPhone.
There hasn't been an Android port of Hercules though, at least none
that I can find.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#214389

On Tue, 2020-09-15, Dan Espen wrote:
...
> I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
> I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
> GUIto drive the process.  Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
> keystrokes for the process.

Another option is to use a shell with searchable history (bash, tcsh,
zsh).  My command line for doing that is

    mount /camera && \
    rsync -av /camera/dcim/1??_pana/ ~/photo/tmp/ && \
    umount /camera

And I type ^Rrsync<RET> to run it, because typically my most recent
rsync invocation was when I did this last time.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#214270

gareth evans wrote:
> Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
> was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
> that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
> have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
> launch.
>
> So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
> and bugger-all else?

  i've been using debian for quite a long time and you can
install that as a server and then add whatever window
environment you want on top of it.

  my current system does use systemd, but i have a lot of
stuff masked because i don't use it.

  there are ways of using debian and not having large parts
of systemd, but i don't really care as long as it works and
currently it does so i leave it alone.

  my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do.  lightdm is the desktop manager i like.

  there are plenty of other windowin environments out there 
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into 
looking for something else when what i have is working.

  years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

  not sure this is the answer you were after, but that's 
what's up with me.


  songbird

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#214299

songbird <songbird@anthive.com> wrote:
> gareth evans wrote:
>> Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
>> was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
>> that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
>> have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
>> launch.
>> 
>> So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
>> and bugger-all else?
> 
>   i've been using debian for quite a long time and you can
> install that as a server and then add whatever window
> environment you want on top of it.
> 
>   my current system does use systemd, but i have a lot of
> stuff masked because i don't use it.
> 
>   there are ways of using debian and not having large parts
> of systemd, but i don't really care as long as it works and
> currently it does so i leave it alone.
> 
>   my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
> i want it to do.  lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
> 
>   there are plenty of other windowin environments out there 
> though i just haven't really cared to get that much into 
> looking for something else when what i have is working.
> 
>   years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
> went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
> and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
> and have stuck with that since then.

Me too. I hear Cinnamon is pretty good, too, but I have no reason to try to
find out.

> 
>   not sure this is the answer you were after, but that's 
> what's up with me.
> 
> 
>   songbird
> 



-- 
Pete

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#214307

Peter Flass wrote:
...
> Me too. I hear Cinnamon is pretty good, too, but I have no reason to try to
> find out.

  i must admit i do pine for the good ol' days when i
was programming on the Univac and only had the few
devices to cope with.  :)  the assembler language
spoiled me for anything else.

  eventually i later on became the system programmer
for that machine as they were trying to get rid of it
and eventually did replace it.  i never knew or planned
to get that involved.

  the conversion was fun, to a mini-computer, once that
was winding down was when i finally left after being
there for 15yrs.

  so from my little corner project off to the side of
the larger programs i was able to observe the full life
cycle of my program going from inception to then 
eventually being replaced.

  i have no idea what hardware they're running on these
days.  hard to believe i've almost been gone from there
for almost 25yrs.  seems like just yesterday...  :)


  songbird

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#214578

On Tue, 2020-09-15, songbird wrote:
...
>   my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
> i want it to do.  lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
>
>   there are plenty of other windowin environments out there 
> though i just haven't really cared to get that much into 
> looking for something else when what i have is working.
>
>   years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
> went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
> and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
> and have stuck with that since then.

That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
I would be in trouble.)

My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)

I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#214580

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:

> On Tue, 2020-09-15, songbird wrote:
> ...
>>   my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
>> i want it to do.  lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
>>
>>   there are plenty of other windowin environments out there 
>> though i just haven't really cared to get that much into 
>> looking for something else when what i have is working.
>>
>>   years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
>> went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
>> and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
>> and have stuck with that since then.
>
> That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
> enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
> I would be in trouble.)
>
> My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
> same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)
>
> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
> environment would add.

xclock doesn't seem to respond to keyboard keys (I want quit at least).
So I run dclock instead.
I get the hours/minutes in big easy to read digits then weekday, month,
day, year are smaller.

xload is nice but I've got my own hacked up xsysstats.
It shows multiple readings in the same space, just using different
colors for each measurement.  So, in one window I get CPU, packets,
and disk activity.  I hacked it to also show uptime (as text).

I think it's necessary to have something monitoring system resources
visible at all times.

Like you, same screen since the 90s.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#214584

On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:

> That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
> enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
> I would be in trouble.)

	There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.

> My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
> same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)

	Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager

	startx & logout

> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
> environment would add.

	Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
that looked like that in the time it took to compile.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#214585

In article <20200926174911.3f339d7c1b52efaa8fffe54c@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT
>Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>
>> That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
>> enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
>> I would be in trouble.)
>
>	There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.
>
>> My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
>> same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)
>
>	Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
>1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
>addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.
>
>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>
>	startx & logout
>
>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>> environment would add.
>
>	Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
>installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
>time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
>X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
>result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
>handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
>that looked like that in the time it took to compile.
>

I remember trying to compile gnome on Solaris when it first came out (and
before there were Solaris builds).  It seemed to depend on every open source
library ever written, so I spent weeks trying to compile the dependances.
Never did get it finished.
-- 
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#214602

ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <20200926174911.3f339d7c1b52efaa8fffe54c@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> 
>>> That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
>>> enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
>>> I would be in trouble.)
>> 
>> There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.
>> 
>>> My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
>>> same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)
>> 
>> Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
>> 1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
>> addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.
>> 
>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>> 
>> startx & logout
>> 
>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>>> environment would add.
>> 
>> Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
>> installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
>> time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
>> X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
>> result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
>> handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
>> that looked like that in the time it took to compile.
>> 
> 
> I remember trying to compile gnome on Solaris when it first came out (and
> before there were Solaris builds).  It seemed to depend on every open source
> library ever written, so I spent weeks trying to compile the dependances.
> Never did get it finished.

I’ve run across several similar packages. After a while I give up and try
to find an alternate solution.

-- 
Pete

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#214596

On 2020-09-26, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> 	Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
> 1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
> addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

flwm is good stuff, I used it for most of the time I ran Linux on the
desktop.

Niklas
-- 
Today's product of a disturbed mind:  The image of an acoustic coupler
fitted with ball gags.
                       -- Steve VanDevender in asr

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#214595

On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
> environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

Mind you, perhaps one can mostly stay away from Gtk apps and such.

Niklas
-- 
I defy anyone to find a mountain whereupon the dew is this particular
colour, and then return to tell me about it.  And no fair wearing
rad-suits for the journey.
                          -- Carl Jacobs

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#214598

Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:

> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>> environment would add.
>
> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X.  Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary.  However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste.  You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu.  X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.


-- 
Dan Espen

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#214599

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>
>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>>> environment would add.
>>
>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>
>That is indeed a weakness in X.  Copy paste is implemented at the
>application level and it can vary.  However, last time I looked,
>windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste.  You need to
>stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>a popup menu.  X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.

In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications.  Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.

Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.  

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#214600

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>
>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>>>> environment would add.
>>>
>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>
>>That is indeed a weakness in X.  Copy paste is implemented at the
>>application level and it can vary.  However, last time I looked,
>>windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste.  You need to
>>stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>a popup menu.  X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>
> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
Oh well.

> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
> copy and paste.
>
> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
> applications.  Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>
> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.  

That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
it's own or the tool kits made it real easy.  Sounds like just like
X11, each application can go it's own way.  Memory is vague, but
I thought Windows was way more consistent.  I remember trying to
implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
toolkit at all.  It wasn't easy.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#214601

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:32:10 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>>>>> environment would add.
>>>>
>>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>>
>>>That is indeed a weakness in X.  Copy paste is implemented at the
>>>application level and it can vary.  However, last time I looked,
>>>windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste.  You need to
>>>stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>>a popup menu.  X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>>stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>>
>> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
>> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.
>
>I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
>Oh well.
>
>> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
>> copy and paste.
>>
>> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
>> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
>> applications.  Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
>> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>>
>> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
>> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.  
>
>That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
>it's own or the tool kits made it real easy.  Sounds like just like
>X11, each application can go it's own way.  Memory is vague, but
>I thought Windows was way more consistent.  I remember trying to
>implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
>toolkit at all.  It wasn't easy.

You've hit on the problem.  MinGW and CygWin don't result in
Windows-native applications, they result in *nix applications running
on a pseudo-*nix layered on top of Windows.  And Java is off in its
own little universe.  

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#214604

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>> 
>>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>>>>> environment would add.
>>>> 
>>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>> 
>>> That is indeed a weakness in X.  Copy paste is implemented at the
>>> application level and it can vary.  However, last time I looked,
>>> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste.  You need to
>>> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>> a popup menu.  X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>> 
>> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
>> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.
> 
> I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
> Oh well.
> 
>> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
>> copy and paste.
>> 
>> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
>> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
>> applications.  Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
>> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>> 
>> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
>> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.  
> 
> That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
> it's own or the tool kits made it real easy.  Sounds like just like
> X11, each application can go it's own way.  Memory is vague, but
> I thought Windows was way more consistent.  I remember trying to
> implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
> toolkit at all.  It wasn't easy.
> 

I suppose what “paste” means can depend on the congruence of what is cut
and what it is being pasted into.

-- 
Pete

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#214606

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:38:10 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:50:23 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2020-09-26, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>>>> I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
>>>>>> with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
>>>>>> and xload(1) in a corner.  I don't see what value a desktop
>>>>>> environment would add.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
>>>>> a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
>>>>> galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
>>>>> depending on what toolkit the app was written using.
>>>> 
>>>> That is indeed a weakness in X.  Copy paste is implemented at the
>>>> application level and it can vary.  However, last time I looked,
>>>> windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste.  You need to
>>>> stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
>>>> a popup menu.  X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
>>>> stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.
>>> 
>>> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
>>> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.
>> 
>> I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
>> Oh well.
>> 
>>> To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
>>> copy and paste.
>>> 
>>> In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
>>> to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
>>> applications.  Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
>>> Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
>>> 
>>> Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
>>> MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.  
>> 
>> That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
>> it's own or the tool kits made it real easy.  Sounds like just like
>> X11, each application can go it's own way.  Memory is vague, but
>> I thought Windows was way more consistent.  I remember trying to
>> implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
>> toolkit at all.  It wasn't easy.
>> 
>
>I suppose what “paste” means can depend on the congruence of what is cut
>and what it is being pasted into.

That is certainly true--pasting an image into a text-only editor
doesn't work.  Otoh, dragging the contents of an Excel cell has varied
resultes depending on the target.

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#214608

On 2020-09-27, J  Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
> it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

PuTTY, which I use daily, is of course an aberration. It attempts to
emulate the classic X behaviour, putting the stroked text into the
buffer immediately and then pasting with the right button (would be
middle on a proper *nix machine, I suppose).

I've learned this behaviour and it's now automatic for me, but
inconsistency is rarely a good thing.

Niklas
-- 
I find it ironic that women are happy that their men shell out big bucks
for Viagra, but yet when rigor mortis sets in they want no part of it.
      -- Daniel E. Macks, in rec.humor.oracle.d

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#214613

Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> writes:

> PuTTY, which I use daily, is of course an aberration. It attempts to
> emulate the classic X behaviour, putting the stroked text into the
> buffer immediately and then pasting with the right button (would be
> middle on a proper *nix machine, I suppose).

You can switch to the xterm behavior: look into the config menu under
Window->Selection

Also one of the things I have to update when setting up a new Putty.

-- 
Stefan

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